Ridiculous Security Procedures?

[poadeleted20]

You missed the point... The FBO manager said the airport was the one who installed that bizzare and illegal security measure... The FBO claims they had no stake in the 8pm lockdown............ Altho my gut feeling is just like Steven said..... it is a revenue thing,, not a security thing so follow the money. If you pay for a call out, who gets the cash ? the FBO or airport.:wink2:...

My bet is the FBO gets the cash......

I'm sure the airport management put the requirement for escort in the security plan, and did so as required by TSA. The monetary issue is the FBO's provision of an escort after normal business hours. If the FBO has to call one of his people at home and have them drive to the airport, escort you, and then lock up and go home again, the FBO has to pay them for their time (probably at overtime rates), and that means the FBO has to charge you for the service. It's no different than after-hours fueling -- if the FBO has to call someone out and send them to work after normal working hours, you pay extra for the service.

 

[poadeleted20]

If it is truly for security, then it seems that the police officer would be able to escort you to your plane.

Cops have other responsibilities -- nonemergency activities like this aren't part of their job description. I suspect they'd view this like you calling them and telling them you're locked out of your car. Yes, they can probably open it up for you, but they'll tell you to call a roadside service provider who will charge you for the job because it's not the job of the police.

 

[Palmpilot]

I'm sure the airport management put the requirement for escort in the security plan, and did so as required by TSA.

There are plenty of airports that the TSA has not required to put in restrictions like this. What's special about this one?

 

[Graueradler]

KFYV does not have airline service. This may be a holdover from when it did have (prior to XNA being built). I had trouble picking my plane up there after avionics service several years ago. I don't remember details but I gained access without paying a fee. It was daytime but on a holiday or Sunday and the avionics shop is on the back side of the field using the same gate as the local T hangars.

 

[dmccormack]

One hundred dollars for an FBO person to open a gate?



That's a great rate! Why isn't everyone moving to Arkansas???


-----------------------------

FWIW, at KLNS the FBO provides a key code entry gate if you need to enter after hours (the code is printed on the air side). KLNS has scheduled air carrier service.

 

[N801BH]

Cops have other responsibilities -- nonemergency activities like this aren't part of their job description. I suspect they'd view this like you calling them and telling them you're locked out of your car. Yes, they can probably open it up for you, but they'll tell you to call a roadside service provider who will charge you for the job because it's not the job of the police.

I believe you are completely off base on this theory.

First, cops DO walk the streets in about every town and check for unlocked doors during their NORMAL rounds... That is a NON emergency..... but they do it... Cops will drive through industrial and for that matter all sections of town looking for suspicious vehicles and that is a NON emergency.. Cops will patrol the grounds of an airport looking to see if there is something strange going on.. the TSA didn't tell them to do it, it is part of their job. In case you not not aware, about every police dept in the country has received money from Homeland security....

Let's play "suppose" for a minute..

I own a piece of property along side a busy road with a large parking lot in front with a direct view of the highway and the cops use it frequently to shoot radar at speeding traffic..... Cop pulls in one night with a box of donuts and positions his /her cruiser to face oncoming traffic to run a speed enforcement action. I have installed a locking gate without telling the public that activates at a certain time so all cars in my parking lot are then pinned in till the next working day.. About halfway through the box of donuts a speeder comes by and the cop attemps to leave the lot to give chase... only to find they can't get out to the highway.....

1- Do I leave my house and return to my businees to let the cop out for free .

2- Do I tell him over the phone I need 100 bucks to come down and let him out .

3- Do I give the officers the gate code number to let themselves out.

4- Do I just ignore him and let him wait till 8AM the next morning.


We could "what if" this till the cows come home..

Ben.

 

[flav8r]

I hope a solution to this problem is found soon.
It appears that TSA has been given too much power and the FAA is only along for the ride.

One of the local airports (KHEG) in Jacksonville has been renamed the Herlong Recreational Airport, when I asked about the name change I was told it was not considered a commercial or business airport.

I was also advised that keycard gates were being installed for access to the field.
The keycards are for local aircraft owners and the FBO only.

Any transient pilots would not have access after hours (no mention of a call out fee).

I think I will get to witness the death of aviation in the U.S. as we know it.

Have you ever stopped to wonder how many millions were wasted in fencing in all the GA airports, water treatment facilities, Army Reserve/Guard buildings?

 

[ClimbnSink]

Is Sporty's selling bolt cutters yet? Order now and get a free handsome bolt cutter case with your N number embroidered on...

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Comments on Airnav seem to be quite complementary. Lots of stars...

No one seems to be complaining about any access problems. The listing even says that fuel is available 24 hours and has a phone number to call to get someone to come out.

 

[dell30rb]

Local airport here requires a $75 per hour call out fee after 8 pm to access your aircraft if you are a transient. That's double the cost of buying a tie down spot for a month.

That would be pinehurst. They think they are a big shot airport cause they get nice jets in there from time to time.. Wealthy folks coming in for a weekend or a round of golf.

 

[flav8r]

You people are soft on terror.

Without this kind of security we could have another attack just like January 5, 2002.

Couldn't this be avoided by placing a large TSA fence around the building?

 

[Everskyward]

After-hours fees are pretty common and it's not unusual to see them in the $100 range.

 

[roncachamp]

After-hours fees are pretty common and it's not unusual to see them in the $100 range.

I don't think anyone objects to after hours fees for actual services.

 

[Everskyward]

I don't think anyone objects to after hours fees for actual services.

They are providing an actual service, unlocking the gate. Whether or not this is a service drummed up by the FBO for extra income or something related to airport security procedures is the question.

 

[poadeleted20]

Whether or not this is a service drummed up by the FBO for extra income or something related to airport security procedures is the question.

Airport management can answer that question. And if it's not an airport security procedure, there's probably another access point which is not locked. OTOH, if they're all locked, it's probably airport security, not one FBO, and that's an increasingly common practice driven by security guidelines from not only TSA but also the aviation alphabet groups.

 

[N801BH]

After-hours fees are pretty common and it's not unusual to see them in the $100 range.

After hour fees are quite different for the type of aircraft..

A biz jet usually needs multiple support services like GPU, fuel, ice, newpaper, catering, lav cart, potable water service, etc, etc,etc,,,

A small single or twin can just crank up and continue their travel needs... To hold any plane hostage for a fee is in my mind criminal....

Mari does fly a biz jet so she sees that side of the GA ramp.... Where they are used to having to pay for play..

I would bet if we rolled back the clock 20 years while she was flying the photographic missions and she came out early to start her photo run and the plane was locked up behind the fence her attitute might have been different...

 

[roncachamp]

They are providing an actual service, unlocking the gate. Whether or not this is a service drummed up by the FBO for extra income or something related to airport security procedures is the question.

Doing something the aircraft owner could do himself is not providing an actual service.

 

[Everskyward]

Mari does fly a biz jet so she sees that side of the GA ramp.... Where they are used to having to pay for play..

We go to lots of little airports where there is only one FBO and we don't need a lot of service. We don't need a GPU (we have an APU), potable water (heck if we needed that we could fill the little container ourselves) and we can do without coffee or papers in the middle of the night. Besides, the ramp fees may be different but call-out fees are usually the same no matter what the size of aircraft.

 

[N801BH]

We go to lots of little airports where there is only one FBO and we don't need a lot of service. We don't need a GPU (we have an APU), potable water (heck if we needed that we could fill the little container ourselves) and we can do without coffee or papers in the middle of the night. Besides, the ramp fees may be different but call-out fees are usually the same no matter what the size of aircraft.

Since Mari travels to alot of airports maybe she can share her experiences with us.

How many airports will give you a code or a way to access your aircraft 24-7

How many do not say anything and you have no idea how to get to your plane

How many flat out say.. " if you want in after hours you need to pay a call out fee"

How often are you able to access your plane 24-7 at an airport with any glitches .

Thanks in advance for your comments.

Ben.

 

[Everskyward]

Since Mari travels to alot of airports maybe she can share her experiences with us.

How many airports will give you a code or a way to access your aircraft 24-7

How many do not say anything and you have no idea how to get to your plane

How many flat out say.. " if you want in after hours you need to pay a call out fee"

How often are you able to access your plane 24-7 at an airport with any glitches .

Thanks in advance for your comments.

Ben.

After some unfortunate experiences with after-hours arrivals and departures I try to be proactive and call ahead, or have someone else call ahead to have someone there. If there's a fee we just pay it. The most egregious call-out fee I ever paid was at KSAN. It was $400 and it was an air ambulance flight. I couldn't talk the guy out of it. Of course he was just the poor sucker who had to come in that night. I'm sure he didn't see much of that $400.

 

[ARFlyer]

Comments on Airnav seem to be quite complementary. Lots of stars...

No one seems to be complaining about any access problems. The listing even says that fuel is available 24 hours and has a phone number to call to get someone to come out.

According to the FBO this just started about two weeks ago.

I don't think anyone objects to after hours fees for actual services.

I do not object either. Opening a gate is not an actual service in my eyes.

Did you happen to notice if there is a way to get OUT OF the airport if you land after 8:00 PM? If so, was the requirement for calling for an escort and the $100 fee posted by the gate?

Did not ask that question. I am very curious if you can get out of the airport. I know Monroe, LA has a HUGE sign stating its fee and the fact you can not get back in.

KFYV does not have airline service. This may be a holdover from when it did have (prior to XNA being built). I had trouble picking my plane up there after avionics service several years ago. I don't remember details but I gained access without paying a fee. It was daytime but on a holiday or Sunday and the avionics shop is on the back side of the field using the same gate as the local T hangars.

I wonder if that gate is still able to be open from the outside? Hmmm... Would that be the hangers over by the self-serve fuel farm?

 

[tonycondon]

dealt with this one night at Waterloo, IA. I think it was $50 to get the kid to come out and scan the card. I always wondered if they wondered where the plane went when they came back in the morning and the plane was gone and they weren't $50 richer.

 

[denverpilot]

Did I say anywhere in my post that I'd call police if there were a number and fee to get my aircraft? No. I said if there were NO way to get my aircraft. Please learn to read.

Doc: Cody, WY huh? They have airline service. Different rules so I can see why treading lighter would be in order.

Our Federal government is completely out of control, as evidenced by how you make your living. We've ceded far too much power to them. Local Sheriffs are usually reasonable folks right up until the Feds get involved. They don't like Press doing articles on locking up tourist's airplanes. Right up until they have a Federal mandate to hide behind.

 

[poadeleted20]

Did I say anywhere in my post that I'd call police if there were a number and fee to get my aircraft? No. I said if there were NO way to get my aircraft.

Doesn't change things. If you report it as being "illegally held,"...

It'd be fun to be a transient and call the Sheriff for them illegally holding my property.

...and the only issue is you can't get through the airport's legally-mandated and installed security perimeter, you're not going to like what happens next. If, on the other hand, you report that you're locked out and there's no way to get in (even with a fee), you may find the police more cooperative.

 

[Palmpilot]

Doesn't change things. If you report it as being "illegally held,"...

"Illegally held" is an opinion. Stating an opinion is not supposed to be grounds for arrest.

...and the only issue is you can't get through the airport's legally-mandated and installed security perimeter, you're not going to like what happens next. If, on the other hand, you report that you're locked out and there's no way to get in (even with a fee), you may find the police more cooperative.

I sure hope so.

 

[tonycondon]

how about "my plane is being held hostage"

 

[Palmpilot]

Does anyone here think that these restrictions would be acceptable if it were a car instead of an airplane, being parked in a area that is appropriate for the type of conveyance? If people were being denied access to their cars after hours when they travel, there would be a political firestorm. If they are gated at all, public use parking facilities generally have automated equipment in operation when they are unattended, so that people can begin each leg of their journey at their convenience. The only reason that public use airports can get away with treating the pilots and passengers of private aircraft differently is that we are in the minority.

As for the security justification, one of the principles of a free society is that if freedom is restricted, the restriction must at minimum actually accomplish its intended purpose. Given that ladders are ubiquitous, these measures only stop honest people, not determined thieves. And given that light aircraft don't even need an airport to take off from, they do even less to stop terrorists.

One question in my mind is, who should we complain to about these unreasonable restrictions on our freedom to travel? The FAA? AOPA? Congress?

 

[ClimbnSink]

Complain with your feet. Starving the F'ers is the only way. If they don't have enough operations to justify their existence maybe they will ask why. Otherwise it is for the children.

Does anyone here think that these restrictions would be acceptable if it were a car instead of an airplane, being parked in a area that is appropriate for the type of conveyance? If people were being denied access to their cars after hours when they travel, there would be a political firestorm. If they are gated at all, public use parking facilities generally have automated equipment in operation when they are unattended, so that people can begin each leg of their journey at their convenience. The only reason that public use airports can get away with treating the pilots and passengers of private aircraft differently is that we are in the minority.

As for the security justification, one of the principles of a free society is that if freedom is restricted, the restriction must at minimum actually accomplish its intended purpose. Given that ladders are ubiquitous, these measures only stop honest people, not determined thieves. And given that light aircraft don't even need an airport to take off from, they do even less to stop terrorists.

One question in my mind is, who should we complain to about these unreasonable restrictions on our freedom to travel? The FAA? AOPA? Congress?

 

[poadeleted20]

"Illegally held" is an opinion. Stating an opinion is not supposed to be grounds for arrest.

Tell you what, Nate -- you try it in those words and let us know what happened. But I suggest you do so only after using your one call to call your attorney.

 

[poadeleted20]

Does anyone here think that these restrictions would be acceptable if it were a car instead of an airplane, being parked in a area that is appropriate for the type of conveyance?

You mean like when you show up at the car dealer's service department half an hour after closing and you can't get your car out until morning? Or one of those parking lots where it says "lot closes at midnight" and when you show up at 1am there's nobody there and a barrier across the exit? Yeah, I think that's about the same.

 

[wsuffa]

You mean like when you show up at the car dealer's service department half an hour after closing and you can't get your car out until morning? Or one of those parking lots where it says "lot closes at midnight" and when you show up at 1am there's nobody there and a barrier across the exit? Yeah, I think that's about the same.

I think the difference here, Ron, is that most car dealers, parking garages, etc are private entities, where the airport is public. IANAL.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Anyone have any idea why GA is dead? I can't figure it out myself.

 

[Palmpilot]

You mean like when you show up at the car dealer's service department half an hour after closing and you can't get your car out until morning?

There's nothing unreasonable about that; it's normal and expected, but it's not normal and expected while parking a car on a trip.

Or one of those parking lots where it says "lot closes at midnight" and when you show up at 1am there's nobody there and a barrier across the exit? Yeah, I think that's about the same.

1:00 AM is a lot more reasonable than 8:00 PM for a parking facility, but in my experience with cross country road trips, facilities that deny you access to your car after a particular time are the exception, not the rule. In any case, if it's posted, I don't see a problem, because in most places there are alternatives within walking distance.

I'm less concerned about a small number of airports doing this than I am about the possibility that it may become a trend generally. If a $100 fee for transient piliots to access their aircraft outside of the FBO's business hours becomes the norm, it will be one more step in pricing the middle class out of flying private aircraft, and besides the personal freedom issues, that can't be good for GA.

I'm surprised that you seem to be OK with this trend.

 

[Palmpilot]

Anyone have any idea why GA is dead? I can't figure it out myself.

Very good, sir!

 

[rainsux]

It's almost worth carrying $100 in pennies.

 

[denverpilot]

Tell you what, Nate -- you try it in those words and let us know what happened. But I suggest you do so only after using your one call to call your attorney.

You replied to Palmpilot as if I said it.

"Tell you what, Ron..." you might want to answer the comments of the correct people to make your point.

If its your opinion that calling police on their non-emergency number to discuss someone locking up my property that I need access to -- with no warning, and no way to access it, on a public airport -- is going to land me in jail...

I'll happily state that you're a complete loon.

Key words are...

"Need"... I'd better show a real need versus an inconvenience. This one is critical. Staying in a hotel room overnight is not "need".

"No warning"... if the FBO has made a reasonable effort to explain that the gates are locked and no access is allowed after hours, it's my problem.

"No way to access"... see above. If I was told and then asked how to depart after hours and they said I couldn't, it's already time to leave. Best have your line boy not pump any of that gas (or here's my lower amount I want on board to safely make a hop to a better -- yes, better -- airport.) I'll call them and get a rental car to come back to town.

Let's get real here... I personally know four pilots who just in the last year have hopped a fence and departed airports after-hours. It happens every week, somewhere.

At an "airliner" airport you're running a severe risk. I wouldn't do it today at all. Out in the boonies, you're lucky if even the wind notices. Jump wisely.

Jail time for calling a phone number? Fat chance.

Feel free to feel helpless if you like. I'm whipping out the cell phone and having a polite and friendly conversation with a bored late-night dispatcher if I feel like it's going to find me someone with a gate key.

If the Sheriff gets cranky about it, I'll point out that there are highly effective solutions to after-hours access, and give helpful examples to the Sheriff that he can share with the idiots running the airport tomorrow morning at the coffee shop.

"I don't know why they're making this so difficult for you Sheriff. Honestly, I don't. Thank you for your time and assistance tonight."

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and no where in this thread did I say I'd call up and act like the typical Creature of Walmart demanding my "rights" in any communication with our public servants.

Perhaps that's how you'd handle it, therefore you know you'd go to jail? I can't say. How you treat people while presenting the problem is more than 50% of the likelihood of success.

Reality check: The OP is based somewhere where the airport management is retarded. We transient folks already know to ask these questions before tying down somewhere. We're also fully aware of the need to pay someone to come unlock a fence that's not protecting anything at all.

The likelihood I would ever be forced to call law enforcement for assistance is pretty darn low.

 

[denverpilot]

Anyone have any idea why GA is dead? I can't figure it out myself.

Honestly, it's not related. Most of us fly during business hours.

 

[Palmpilot]

Honestly, it's not related. Most of us fly during business hours.

You might be over-generalizing from personal experience. When I fly a 172 between the San Franciso area and the Phoenix area, I often have trouble making the entire trip during business hours. Glendale Airport has no means for me to get on the field before airport personnel show up, and if I were an early riser, or needed to get home by a certain time for some reason, that would definitely be a problem.

 

[roncachamp]

I did a cross-country last week to KFYV and discovered a ridiculous airport security program. As of two weeks ago you are no longer allowed access of your aircraft after hours. If you are a transit aircraft and happen to return to the airport after 8pm, you have to pay a $100 callout fee. This is only for the FBO worker to walk you to your plane and watch you leave.

The FBO worker said that only pilots with HANGERS are given access cards for the gates. When I asked if there was a GA tie down area with a public gate he said not anymore. All transit aircraft have to park at the FBO or a hanger. A news peice I found said this was to streamline airport access. This was to improve ease of access for the local pilots and workers?!? Also to align the airport with military security because the FBO got fueling rights.

Before all of this madness, the airport had a pedestrian gate that was normally wide open. The airport doesn't even have commercial service. Just GA traffic with the occasional UofA charter.

So does anyone know if this is legal? I thought since its a public use airport you had FREE and UNLIMITED access to your aircraft!?! Is this a normal thing in other parts of the country?

Is the gate in a fence that you could have climbed over?

 

[kkoran]

I expect this sort of nonsense will become more common after the TSA releases its revised Large Aircraft Security Program regulations.