Ridiculous fees.... what can ya do?

[LearDriver]

I spend more time than I really want to in FBO's. Many of you guys think that the FBO's are only hosing the guys in the light GA aircraft. They are not. The jets get hosed just as badly if not worse. Next time you are complaining to the CSR about a $50 handling fee ask them what a GIV or a BBJ pays. Jims air (now Landmark) in SAN was charging us $900.

Just take a more proactive approach to picking out your FBO. Once you are there asking for discounts at the counter will not get you very much. Besides most of the CSR's are not exactly at management level to be able to waive the fees on their own. Make phone calls before you go. Get all of the fees and prices a head of time. That way you might be able to negotiate with them a little. You can usually get the fees waived by buying enough fuel. We run the numbers. Sometimes it saves us money to just pay the fees and not buy fuel from them. In those cases we buy fuel elsewhere and tanker in cheap fuel.

Just make sure you call all of the FBO's on the field. I have had some tell me that there are landing fees that they collect for the airport authority. Then I call another FBO on the same field and am told that there are no landing fees for that particular airport. It pays to do your homework.

 

[Clark1961]

Manhattan doesn't seem to be dying to me...

A carcinoma can be difficult to kill without taking the host with it...

 

[weilke]

Don't forget that something like an art festival or rummage sale, we come to you and pay you so we can set up and sell our wares on your land. A place to park, place to put the tents, someone to watch over things at night and a little advertisement to draw in the crowds is all that's really needed. You'll have to get word out and a few other things however I don't see how it couldn't be profitable with a little homework beforehand.

And you are planning to NOTAM the airport closed during that event ?

Many airports have received federal funding. Non-aviation use is a fast way to get the attention of the regional FAA funding office.

 

[slowjoe]

On the other hand, how are the FBOs supposed to stay in business if they get a lot of customers who don't buy fuel and they don't charge fees? I sometimes feel guilty when I sit around all day drinking their coffee, using their wifi and their crew car and they say "no charge". I remember Yingling at KICT as being one of these places that doesn't charge a fee. I've been to other small airport FBOs where I can't understand how they stay in business. I'll sit around all day and see only a couple other airplanes. So I really think there needs to be a happy medium with fees.

That's fine, you're using their services. It's fees for NO use of there services that ticks me off. A few weeks back I had to deliver a plane to TUS to its new owners. Another plane flew down with me to give me a ride back. Tucson Executive charged EACH plane $14 ramp fee. The delivered plane had to sit there a while as the new owners hadn't arrived yet. So I gave the keys to the FBO and told them to bill the owners. But $14 for the other plane to sit there for 10 minutes? Come on! Isn't that kind of like an auto repair shop charging your friend who picks you while your car is getting worked on?

 

[fgcason]

And you are planning to NOTAM the airport closed during that event ?

Many airports have received federal funding. Non-aviation use is a fast way to get the attention of the regional FAA funding office.

Why would you have to close an airport if the activity doesn't involve the aircraft operations areas?

Many podunk nowhere airports have no funding beyond themselves and maybe the local town council. They can do whatever they want.

 

[weilke]

Why would you have to close an airport if the activity doesn't involve the aircraft operations areas?

If you have that much airport land that you can put up tents and carnival rides without affecting airport operations and obstacle free planes, maybe you could sell off some land instead.

Many podunk nowhere airports have no funding beyond themselves and maybe the local town council. They can do whatever they want.

The real podunk places are far enough from the next podunk place that they most definitely have AIP funding. This can be a set of new runway lights 10 years ago or an AWOS.

 

[DaveJ]

There are good airports. Usually at the smaller towns. At THP, I got use of a crew car overnight & no fees. Just had to by some gas.

 

[wabower]

How many planes landed? If the charge is assessed as a landing fee, it seems pretty simple to me. The airplane either landed or it didn't. Was the charge for using the runway or using the ramp? Landing fees are normally assessed by the airport authority, ramp fees by the FBO.

That's fine, you're using their services. It's fees for NO use of there services that ticks me off. A few weeks back I had to deliver a plane to TUS to its new owners. Another plane flew down with me to give me a ride back. Tucson Executive charged EACH plane $14 ramp fee. The delivered plane had to sit there a while as the new owners hadn't arrived yet. So I gave the keys to the FBO and told them to bill the owners. But $14 for the other plane to sit there for 10 minutes? Come on! Isn't that kind of like an auto repair shop charging your friend who picks you while your car is getting worked on?

 

[slowjoe]

How many planes landed? If the charge is assessed as a landing fee, it seems pretty simple to me. The airplane either landed or it didn't. Was the charge for using the runway or using the ramp? Landing fees are normally assessed by the airport authority, ramp fees by the FBO.

2 planes @ $14 each. These were FBO fees, not landing fees. I've never been assessed a landing fee for all the touch and goes I've done there.

Landing fees are a whole different story. If an airport is receiving federal funding I don't believe that airport should be allowed to charge a landing fee. I'm already paying for that airport by paying fuel taxes.

 

[bigred177]

I am not advocating this in any way, but just out of curiosity, what would happen if you just didn't pay? Just wait until the front desk is busy and head out the door. You're not going back there anyway. Is there an FBO blacklist they would put you on so another one wouldn't serve you? And would they come after you for <$500?

 

[kevin7500]

That's fine, you're using their services. It's fees for NO use of there services that ticks me off. A few weeks back I had to deliver a plane to TUS to its new owners. Another plane flew down with me to give me a ride back. Tucson Executive charged EACH plane $14 ramp fee. The delivered plane had to sit there a while as the new owners hadn't arrived yet. So I gave the keys to the FBO and told them to bill the owners. But $14 for the other plane to sit there for 10 minutes? Come on! Isn't that kind of like an auto repair shop charging your friend who picks you while your car is getting worked on?

So, you park a plane on the FBO's ramp and interact with the employees. Then you asked the employees to hold the keys (take possession of the plane) so you could leave. When you say you didn't you any of the services, which of their services didn't you use, the fuel truck?

 

[gprellwitz]

So, you park a plane on the FBO's ramp and interact with the employees. Then you asked the employees to hold the keys (take possession of the plane) so you could leave. When you say you didn't you any of the services, which of their services didn't you use, the fuel truck?

Kevin,
When I read it I thought Joe was fine with charging the fee for the plane he flew in, since, as you said, they provided services. It was the other one that was flying in that he had problems with. It would be as if, had he been picked up by a private car, they had charged a fee for the car's use of the parking lot. Did I misunderstand something?

Now, I will say that each plane on the ramp may incur a potential insurance liability. But then again, the same would hold true of a car in the parking lot. (Note that I'm not saying it does involve a liability, just that I could be convinced that it does.)

 

[weilke]

I am not advocating this in any way, but just out of curiosity, what would happen if you just didn't pay? Just wait until the front desk is busy and head out the door. You're not going back there anyway. Is there an FBO blacklist they would put you on so another one wouldn't serve you? And would they come after you for <$500?

They'll sent your company a bill. Then a reminder, then another reminder, and then they send it to their collections agency and it will eventually show up on your Dunn & Bradstreet report. Not much different from any other small-fry business-business debt.

 

[kevin7500]

Kevin,
When I read it I thought Joe was fine with charging the fee for the plane he flew in, since, as you said, they provided services. It was the other one that was flying in that he had problems with. It would be as if, had he been picked up by a private car, they had charged a fee for the car's use of the parking lot. Did I misunderstand something?

Yes, I think he was fine with the other guy getting charged for leaving the plane there just not him for using their ramp space to perform operations related to his business of delivering the plane. To imply that the FBO provided no service is not correct. If nothing else they provided the space necessary to deliver the plane. I assume that the FBO has a lease to pay on the space. As for the car analogy, what is the going rate per hour in your local airport short term parking? Ours is $2 minimum to pull through the gate and $1 per half hour after that.

 

[weilke]

what is the going rate per hour in your local airport short term parking? Ours is $2 minimum to pull through the gate and $1 per half hour after that.

What is the going rate to park my car at the IL turnpike rest-stop while meeting someone in the Starbucks there ? I do pay the $4 for the coffee.

 

[SkyHog]

How do you get costs down? Get more people flying. How do you get more people flying? Get costs down.

Hmm...

Wrong. You get more people flying by removing the stupid amount of work it takes to get a private certificate (aka a fly from here to there certificate).

But no one wants to hear that, because we're "elite."

 

[Ted]

Wrong. You get more people flying by removing the stupid amount of work it takes to get a private certificate (aka a fly from here to there certificate).

But no one wants to hear that, because we're "elite."

I can only think of one person on here who says we're "elite" and I disagree with that person.

However I still say that it's cost. Most of the people I talk to decide to not learn to fly because of cost. The 40 hours of flight time and taking an average of 4-6 months doesn't seem to bother most of them, but the spending $8-10,000 to do it does, especially followed by the promise of spending a minimum of $100/hr to fly aircraft afterwards, buying $5/gallon gas, etc. Not to mention maintenance bills way higher than their Fords.

Get the costs down, people will return.

 

[kevin7500]

What is the going rate to park my car at the IL turnpike rest-stop while meeting someone in the Starbucks there ? I do pay the $4 for the coffee.

I think you have hit the nail exactly on the head! Pilots view FBOs as rest stops instead of what they are. These are businesses. You are willing to pay $4 for a cup of coffee, but get upset about a $14 ramp fee while parking the $100K plane. How many FBOs charge fees if you top the tanks off?