Rides, or "introductory flight lessons"?

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
14,210
Location
Midlothian, TX
Display Name

Display name:
3Green
What do you think? This guy seems willing to give anybody who comes up an "introductory flight lesson" (he seems to flip back and forth between "rides", "we're just having fun", and "give them an introductory flight lesson").

What's it take for him to be legal? (I'm not suggesting he's NOT... just wondering if he needs a part 135, or just operating a flight school and giving a "20 minute ride" would pass the "walks and smells like a duck" test to the FAA).

 
I admit it'd be fun, and I'd like to take the "ride" (er, "introductory flight lesson"). Is it really the latter in a 10-20 minute ride? I wonder if they give logbooks to the participants.
 
I admit it'd be fun, and I'd like to take the "ride" (er, "introductory flight lesson"). Is it really the latter in a 10-20 minute ride? I wonder if they give logbooks to the participants.

If they do, they can call it instruction - But they'd better jump through the TSA hoops.

They can give rides without a 135 cert (stay w/in 25nm and all the other restrictions) but they do need some sort of certificate and a drug testing program.

So, whatever they do, there's gonna be some paperwork involved if they're going to be 100% legal.
 
Hmm... I need to ask if "intro flights" require AFSP prior to the first flight... I bet they do if the "student" is going to log the time.
 
If this is a lesson, why is the student in the back seat?

I believe under AFSP you are allowed to give 1 "discovery flight" before jumping through all of the registration hoops. This is to allow a student to make an "informed" decision on what school they commit to.

Chris
 
If its a J-3 the student generally sits in the back as it is where they will solo from.

Ahhh. My experience is only with Citabrias (I've never been in a J-3).

It looks to me like the plane flown in this video is a Citabria. I suppose you could argue that training the back seat of a Citabria is "in preparation for flying a J-3"...

Chris
 
The TSA permits "demonstration flights for marketing purposes" without jumping through the citizenship hoops but that is limited to "a flight for the purpose of demonstrating an aircraft's or aircraft simulator's capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser." See 49 CFR 1552.1(b). There is no exception in the regs for "intro rides" for potential trainees and I know of no exemption for such rides in the form of a TSA Chief Counsel letter. Other than giving them a sightseeing ride under 91.147, which means getting the FSDO letter and having the pilots in a random drug testing program and not calling it training or signing a logbook, it sounds like this operation is violating TSA rules unless they're complying with 49 CFR 1552.3(h) for US citizens and refusing noncitizens without the full TSA checks.
 
The TSA permits "demonstration flights for marketing purposes" without jumping through the citizenship hoops but that is limited to "a flight for the purpose of demonstrating an aircraft's or aircraft simulator's capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser." See 49 CFR 1552.1(b). There is no exception in the regs for "intro rides" for potential trainees and I know of no exemption for such rides in the form of a TSA Chief Counsel letter. Other than giving them a sightseeing ride under 91.147, which means getting the FSDO letter and having the pilots in a random drug testing program and not calling it training or signing a logbook, it sounds like this operation is violating TSA rules unless they're complying with 49 CFR 1552.3(h) for US citizens and refusing noncitizens without the full TSA checks.

Thats how I see it too after reading the AFSP more closely. Wonder how soon all these ride airplanes will be "for sale".
 
Other than giving them a sightseeing ride under 91.147, which means getting the FSDO letter and having the pilots in a random drug testing program and not calling it training or signing a logbook...

Thanks Ron, I knew in my gut that a Part 135 certificate being required didn't sound right. 91.147 was what I was missing.

This part of that regulation was interesting:

(b) An Operator must comply with the safety provisions of part 136, subpart A of this chapter, and apply for and receive a Letter of Authorization from the Flight Standards District Office nearest to its principal place of business by September 11, 2007.

Does that mean that nobody gets approved for flight-seeing rides after 9/11/2007?
 
Does that mean that nobody gets approved for flight-seeing rides after 9/11/2007?
No, that's just the date after which you needed a letter. If you dig further, you'll see that date is later than the effective date of the reg, which allowed folks time from when it went into effect to request and receive the letter, because you can't request authorization under a reg which hasn't yet taken effect.
 
The TSA permits "demonstration flights for marketing purposes" without jumping through the citizenship hoops but that is limited to "a flight for the purpose of demonstrating an aircraft's or aircraft simulator's capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser." See 49 CFR 1552.1(b). There is no exception in the regs for "intro rides" for potential trainees and I know of no exemption for such rides in the form of a TSA Chief Counsel letter. Other than giving them a sightseeing ride under 91.147, which means getting the FSDO letter and having the pilots in a random drug testing program and not calling it training or signing a logbook, it sounds like this operation is violating TSA rules unless they're complying with 49 CFR 1552.3(h) for US citizens and refusing noncitizens without the full TSA checks.

Not having an exemption for the "intro flight" is an idiotic policy, but it is the rule nonetheless.

Flight training, like everything else, has to be marketed. In aviation it's made more difficult not only by the expense, but also by the fact that not everyone who takes a "discovery flight" has even decided that they actually want to learn to fly. Some are just curious, some see a sign as they pass an airport and try it on a whim, some are interested but don't realize how expensive it is until after the flight, and so forth.

Some schools attempt to delay the TSA hoop-jumping by not calling the intro flight a "lesson" until after the student has decided to enroll, and not enrolling the student until the TSA requirements have been met. When I was shopping around for schools, the instructor at the first school actually read and had me sign a statement explaining that the "intro flight" was not a "lesson" and wouldn't count as such until and unless I enrolled at the school. Until then, it was just a flight whose purpose was to help me determine whether I wanted to enroll. Until I actually enrolled (and completed the TSA requirements), nothing I did in an airplane would be considered instruction.

Another school I know of issues a laser-printed "First Flight" certificate (suitable for framing), instead of the traditional staple-bound temporary logbook, after the intro flight. The certificate is accompanied by a glossy digital picture of the instructor presenting it to the [not-quite-yet] student, both with suitably raised thumbs. The certificate also bears all of the required information for a log book entry -- except the instructor's CFI number and signature. So it's not technically a log book entry. It can be converted to one, however, if the student enrolls.

I was, however, asked if I was a citizen by all of the flight schools I considered; and the first school told me that I could take the intro flight, but would have to present my birth certificate before I could actually enroll. After the first school, however, I knew this and simply brought my birth certificate with me to the subsequent schools.

-Rich
 
Some schools attempt to delay the TSA hoop-jumping by not calling the intro flight a "lesson" until after the student has decided to enroll, and not enrolling the student until the TSA requirements have been met.
They can certainly do that, but if they're collecting money from the prospective student, they'd better better be doing it under 91.147 unless they have a TSA exemption for such "intro flights" as flight training without complying with 49 CFR Part 1552.
 
Back
Top