return to service question

[tom clark]

this really kind of annoys me. it seems i have to badger my mechanic to get me log entries. maybe i should just leave them with the logs, but i have just never felt comfortable with that. it's my understanding that my plane cannot be returned to service til the log entries are made. my fear of course is that something stupid happens, and the insurance company annouces that without the proper log entries my plane was never returned to service and my insurance is void. is that a legitimate concern? how do you all handle it? thanks! tc

 

[poadeleted20]

this really kind of annoys me. it seems i have to badger my mechanic to get me log entries.

Not a good sign.

it's my understanding that my plane cannot be returned to service til the log entries are made.

Your understanding is correct -- see 14 CFR 43.5.

my fear of course is that something stupid happens, and the insurance company annouces that without the proper log entries my plane was never returned to service and my insurance is void. is that a legitimate concern?

Yes.

how do you all handle it?

I don't hand over the check until the log entries are made and signed. If the mechanic doesn't like that, I ask him if he'd like to have an airworthiness inspector from the FSDO join the discussion. And I never take the plane back to that mechanic, because if he cuts those corners, I have to wonder what corners he cut with my plane.

Ron

 

[ScottM]

this really kind of annoys me. it seems i have to badger my mechanic to get me log entries. maybe i should just leave them with the logs, but i have just never felt comfortable with that. it's my understanding that my plane cannot be returned to service til the log entries are made. my fear of course is that something stupid happens, and the insurance company annouces that without the proper log entries my plane was never returned to service and my insurance is void. is that a legitimate concern? how do you all handle it? thanks! tc

If I forget to give him the logs he just prints me a sticker for me to place in the log, attaches it to the invoice and hands that back to me. Why can't you mechanic do that?

Remember the job isn't over until the paperwork is done.

 

[tom clark]

i guess the problem is i rarely see my mechanic. they automatically charge my card each month for hangar rent, fuel and maintenance. and they mail me the log stickers, which sometimes takes a few weeks or more. their hours are the same as mine, 8-5, so i need to work out some kind of arrangement. i guess i need to lean on them, or leave them the logs. of course, if i leave them the logs, theres no guarantee they'll make the entries any faster than we do now! "hey guys, clark just crashed, get those log entries up to date, PRONTO!". tc

 

[ScottM]

i guess the problem is i rarely see my mechanic. they automatically charge my card each month for hangar rent, fuel and maintenance. and they mail me the log stickers, which sometimes takes a few weeks or more. their hours are the same as mine, 8-5, so i need to work out some kind of arrangement. i guess i need to lean on them, or leave them the logs. of course, if i leave them the logs, theres no guarantee they'll make the entries any faster than we do now! "hey guys, clark just crashed, get those log entries up to date, PRONTO!". tc

I see your problem. Here is the solution that we have at our airport. My mechanic has a set of keys to my hanger and plane, when he finishes work he give sit to me or leaves it on the pax seat of my plane.

I like letting him have a set of keys because if I need something for him to do I can just call and he will be able to get access without me having to make an extra trip. Also WHEN I forget my keys I cna borrow his set

 

[tom clark]

I see your problem. Here is the solution that we have at our airport. My mechanic has a set of keys to my hanger and plane, when he finishes work he give sit to me or leaves it on the pax seat of my plane.

I like letting him have a set of keys because if I need something for him to do I can just call and he will be able to get access without me having to make an extra trip. Also WHEN I forget my keys I cna borrow his set

i think the root of the problem just occured to me Scott. its a maintenance shop. and the guy doing the work doesn't do the log entries. he fills out a form and gives the info to somebody in the office who does the billing and types up the sticky log entry. the mechanic signs the entry and its mailed to me. i have a call into the boss. with all the planes they maintain down there i can't be the first to have this question. tc

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

"hey guys, clark just crashed, get those log entries up to date, PRONTO!". tc

If you crash, the last thing they are going to be thinking about is getting their name into the last slot in your logs.

I sometimes wonder if some mechs hedge on the liability using this method...when they are 'slow' to sign stuff off, not in a hurry to get paid (ie a paper invoice); maybe they are reducing their exposure.

 

[tom clark]

If you crash, the last thing they are going to be thinking about is getting their name into the last slot in your logs.

I sometimes wonder if some mechs hedge on the liability using this method...when they are 'slow' to sign stuff off, not in a hurry to get paid (ie a paper invoice); maybe they are reducing their exposure.

its crossed my mind. i still cringe when i think of the aopa article about the guy who got the new engine. (working from memory so don't hold me to the details) he went to the airport to see how things were progressing, and they were just getting ready to take it up on a test flight. they asked him if he wanted to come along. engine fails, plane is damaged or destroyed, and since the mechanic hadn't made the log entries the insurance company wouldn't cover it because he was flying the plane before it was returned to service. i am all over this! tc

 

[Eamon]

What would happen if the books got lost after/during an accident?

Can an insurance company not pay out on an unrelated claim like a mid-air?


I see that books are not recovered in a lot of NTSB reports.

 

[ScottM]

What would happen if the books got lost after/during an accident?

Can an insurance company not pay out on an unrelated claim like a mid-air?


I see that books are not recovered in a lot of NTSB reports.

Why would you have your aircraft logbooks in the plane to begin with?
There is no requirement to carry them and you really shouldn't have them in a place that they could be easily stolen or damaged.

 

[Eamon]

Why would you have your aircraft logbooks in the plane to begin with?
There is no requirement to carry them and you really shouldn't have them in a place that they could be easily stolen or damaged.

I was talking about time frame.

I would never carry log books in the plane. Too easy to get screwed on a ramp check

 

[tom clark]

we talked. we reached an agreement. they'll have the mechanic hand write the log entry on a sticky and leave it in my plane. now wasn't that easy! thanks for the advice all. tc

 

[poadeleted20]

When my plane goes in the shop for scheduled/planned maintenance, the logs go with it -- no excuse for the logs not being filled out when the work is done. When I'm on the road without the logs, and emergency maintenance is done, the sticky is filled out, signed, and in my personal possession before the check is handed over and the plane leaves the shop. If the shop is getting your plane out of the hangar and towing it to their shop for work, it shouldn't be hard to get them to learn where in your hangar the logs are so they can grab them with the plane.

 

[Stache]

I believe I know the answer to some of your Return-to-Service questions. First if an A&P does Maintenance (FAR 1.1 Legal term) they are required in accordance with FAR 43 section 43.9 shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment (return to service statement for the work performed).

FAR43 section 43.5 states: “No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless— “

You will note the above are maintenance requirements. Now note what FAR 91 sections 91.407 says:

Section 91.407 Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuiding, or alteration.
(a) No person may operate any aircraft that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—
(1) It has been approved for return to service by a person authorized under §43.7 of this chapter; and
(2) The maintenance record entry required by §43.9 or §43.11, as applicable, of this chapter has been made

So per the rule the owner/operator is required to have a return-to-service statement before operation. And if you read FAR 91.405 it make it the owner/operators responsible to make sure the mechanic makes the appropriate record enties.

§ 91.405(b) Maintenance required.
Each owner or operator of an aircraft—

(b) Shall ensure that maintenance personnel make appropriate entries in the aircraft maintenance records indicating the aircraft has been approved for return to service;

Also Section 91.417(a)(1)(i). Requires the maintenance record entry to include "a description of the work performed." The description should be in sufficient detail to permit a person unfamiliar with the work to understand what was done, and the methods and procedures used in doing it. When the work is extensive, this results in a voluminous record.

So for a legal stand point if you look at your aircraft airworthiness certificate it say you have to follow three rules FAR 21, 43 and 91. If you do not it voids your airworthiness certificate until things are fixed. The proper record entries are part of this and say you have an accident and do not have a return to service statement you are at fault for operation of an aircraft in an unairworthy condition and may void your insurance. And be held responsible for braking FAR 91.103, 91.403, 91.405 and 91.407.


Say you happen to lose you aircraft records after/during an accident
. Again it is the owner/operator responsible to maintain records. There is an AC 43-9C which explains occasionally, the records for an aircraft are lost or destroyed. In order to re-construct them, it is necessary to establish the total time-in-service of the airframe. This can be done by reference to other records that reflect the time-in-service; research of records maintained by repair facilities; and reference to records maintained by individual mechanics, etc. When these things have been done and the record is still incomplete, the owner/operator may make a notarized statement in the new record describing the loss and establishing the time-in-service based on the research and the best estimate of time-in-service.

Not having records at a accident may indicate something to hide and your insurance company will be very concerned. You may want to check your policy and see what it says.

Now that I have bored you all with the long answer. The short answer is don’t give your maintenance records to the mechanic give them a copy. Bring the originals when they complete the work for a sign off. Don’t leave or pay the final bill until you get the return-to-service. If the mechanic doesn’t want to sign the records contact your local FSDO for assistance this is the one time your local FSDO can really help. Because mechanics are required to sign for the work they perform.

Just one man’s opinion.

Stache

 

[tom clark]

wow Stache, thanks. i guess that pretty well covers it! man, i have had my butt hanging out on and off a lot of times. never again! tc