Restricted ATP certificate questions

farmerbrake

farmerbrake

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farmerbrake
****I am not starting this thread to debate going into an aviation degree in college, please avoid any discussion related to weather or not that is a good idea****

So I know that if you go to an accredited university and get a Bachelor of Science degree in an approved (by the faa) field you can apply to get your RESTRICTED-ATP at 1000 hrs vs. The normal 1500.
My question is: so what? If I understand the Regs right you can only be hired by a part 121 to serve as second in command. Which means you can't do any flying right?
Would a 121 even want to hire an R-ATP?
Also, just for clarification can someone explain exactly what part 121 operations do? I'm fairly certain I know just want a second/third opinion.

So what is the real benefit of getting an R-ATP?
 
You absolutely can log hours and fly as the first officer on an aircraft that requires more than one pilot. The "value" in pursuing this route is that you can obtain your ATP with less hours than normal (1000/1250 vs. 1500, depending on the route you take). I believe this can also be accomplished by flying in the military.
 
So i did misinterpret the regs. Big surprise there, I'm probably the first person to do so .
Yeah there are other ways to get your r-atp.
So you can log the time but it's not PIC time right?
What kind of jobs would that open up?
 
Answering your questions in order:

1. 1000 is 500 less than 1500(sarcasm)
2. No 121 operator is going to hire you as a captain right out of the gate anyways. You are gonna have to pay your dues as an SIC.
3. You can fly, but you aren't PIC
4. Considering all 121 pilots must now have an ATP, I would say so
5. Part 121 is your scheduled air carrier service. United, Delta, and your regional airlines.
6. Get the rating in 500 fewer hours

BGF_Yankee said:
You absolutely can log hours and fly as the first officer on an aircraft that requires more than one pilot. The "value" in pursuing this route is that you can obtain your ATP with less hours than normal (1000/1250 vs. 1500, depending on the route you take). I believe this can also be accomplished by flying in the military.
Click to expand...

Military can get it at 750 instead of 1000

farmerbrake said:
So you can log the time but it's not PIC time right?
What kind of jobs would that open up?
Click to expand...
1. Correct
2. You would have multi-engine turbine time, time in the particular jet aircraft you are flying, your total time is increased, it could open any number of doors. Time is time. The more you have of it, the better.
 
R-ATPs are getting hired as easy as anybody else. It makes me mad I need 1500 because I got a degree other than aviation. How does getting an AV degree equal 500 more hours of FLIGHT experience ?
 
farmerbrake said:
****I am not starting this thread to debate going into an aviation degree in college, please avoid any discussion related to weather or not that is a good idea****

So I know that if you go to an accredited university and get a Bachelor of Science degree in an approved (by the faa) field you can apply to get your RESTRICTED-ATP at 1000 hrs vs. The normal 1500.
My question is: so what? If I understand the Regs right you can only be hired by a part 121 to serve as second in command. Which means you can't do any flying right?
Click to expand...
Your understanding is incorrect. You are confusing the R-ATP with the Multi-crew license being issued in Europe. The R-ATP includes full CP privileges, and is earned only after already earning the PP and CP. As such, you can do anything a CP can do plus fly SIC in a Part 121 operation.
Would a 121 even want to hire an R-ATP?
Click to expand...
Ever since Congress passed the law requiring an ATP even to be a co-pilot in a 121 operation, the regional airlines have been worried about where they'll get qualified co-pilots. They had been hiring CP's with as little as 300-500 hours experience, and this law put an end to that. The R-ATP allows them to get pilots a year or two sooner then they would if they had to wait for those pilots to get the full 1500 hours required for a regular ATP.

Also, just for clarification can someone explain exactly what part 121 operations do?
Click to expand...
Basically, scheduled airlines carrying passengers and freight, including majors like United and Delta, regionals like Mesa and Piedmont, and freight operators like UPS and FedEx. There are also unscheduled air carriers doing charter with large airplanes, such as government contractors hauling troops for the Department of Defense like Atlas.

So what is the real benefit of getting an R-ATP?
Click to expand...
Cutting a year or two off the time before you can get hired by a Part 121 carrier.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Answering your questions in order:

3. You can fly, but you aren't PIC
Click to expand...
You can most definitely be PIC, just not of an aircraft in a Part 121 operation or certain Part 135 operations. Other than that, you can be PIC of anything in which anyone holding a Commercial Pilot certificate can also be PIC.
 
Ron Levy said:
Your understanding is incorrect. You are confusing the R-ATP with the Multi-crew license being issued in Europe. The R-ATP includes full CP privileges, and is earned only after already earning the PP and CP. As such, you can do anything a CP can do plus fly SIC in a Part 121 operation.
Ever since Congress passed the law requiring an ATP even to be a co-pilot in a 121 operation, the regional airlines have been worried about where they'll get qualified co-pilots. They had been hiring CP's with as little as 300-500 hours experience, and this law put an end to that. The R-ATP allows them to get pilots a year or two sooner then they would if they had to wait for those pilots to get the full 1500 hours required for a regular ATP.

Basically, scheduled airlines carrying passengers and freight, including majors like United and Delta, regionals like Mesa and Piedmont, and freight operators like UPS and FedEx. There are also unscheduled air carriers doing charter with large airplanes, such as government contractors hauling troops for the Department of Defense like Atlas.

Cutting a year or two off the time before you can get hired by a Part 121 carrier.
Click to expand...
Holy cow. How in the world did I do that? See I'm glad I have the forum to set me straight. So the r-atp really does help in getting a job 500/250 hrs sooner.
Basically once you have your r-atp you sit right seat and fly until you get 1500 hrs and then you get your full atp and can move left seat?
 
farmerbrake said:
Holy cow. How in the world did I do that? See I'm glad I have the forum to set me straight. So the r-atp really does help in getting a job 500/250 hrs sooner.
Basically once you have your r-atp you sit right seat and fly until you get 1500 hrs and then you get your full atp and can move left seat?
Click to expand...

Won't move left seat until 1000hrs 121 I believe.
 
RotorAndWing said:
How so?
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The R-ATP gives full CP privileges and requires 750-1250 hours (depending on your training source). The multi-crew certificate requires only 240 hours and the holder's privileges are limited to being a co-pilot unless s/he also holds a regular PP or CP certificate.
 
farmerbrake said:
Basically once you have your r-atp you sit right seat and fly until you get 1500 hrs and then you get your full atp and can move left seat?
Click to expand...
Not quite. Your move to the left seat will also be based on seniority -- you won't move to the left seat until everyone more senior at your airline has had the chance to do so. That typically takes 5-15 years at the majors, and 2-3 years at the regionals -- by which time you'll have a lot more than 1500 hours.
 
Ron Levy said:
The R-ATP gives full CP privileges and requires 750-1250 hours (depending on your training source). The multi-crew certificate requires only 240 hours and the holder's privileges are limited to being a co-pilot unless s/he also holds a regular PP or CP certificate.
Click to expand...

ICAO has relaxed the MCPL limitations at the last convention. Member states now can allow MCPL's to sit for the ATPL test and consequently upgrade to PIC.
 
farmerbrake said:
Basically once you have your r-atp you sit right seat and fly until you get 1500 hrs and then you get your full atp and can move left seat?
Click to expand...

Once you get 1500, yes your R-ATP gets upgraded to a full ATP with just a trip to the Flight Standards District Office. But don't think for a second that just because you get the full ATP, you are going to immediately transition to Captain in the left seat. That is going to be based on seniority at the airline and could be years.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Which is what he was referring to...
Click to expand...
What he said was "you can only be hired by a part 121 to serve as second in command", and that's not true. You can be hired in a lot of other places to serve as PIC on the strength of your underlying Commercial privileges. This contrasts with the JAA MCP certificate, which carries only SIC privileges.
 
RotorAndWing said:
ICAO has relaxed the MCPL limitations at the last convention. Member states now can allow MCPL's to sit for the ATPL test and consequently upgrade to PIC.
Click to expand...
Sure, but then they're ATP's, not MCP's. But someone who holds only an MCP ticket is limited to serving as SIC. OTOH, an R-ATP can be PIC in any situation where a PP or CP would suffice.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Once you get 1500, yes your R-ATP gets upgraded to a full ATP with just a trip to the Flight Standards District Office. But don't think for a second that just because you get the full ATP, you are going to immediately transition to Captain in the left seat. That is going to be based on seniority at the airline and could be years.
Click to expand...

Ron Levy said:
Not quite. Your move to the left seat will also be based on seniority -- you won't move to the left seat until everyone more senior at your airline has had the chance to do so. That typically takes 5-15 years at the majors, and 2-3 years at the regionals -- by which time you'll have a lot more than 1500 hours.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I knew that it's based on seniority, just forgot to add that in.

So how many hour a year do you guys in the airlines fly?
 
Ron Levy said:
What he said was "you can only be hired by a part 121 to serve as second in command", and that's not true. You can be hired in a lot of other places to serve as PIC on the strength of your underlying Commercial privileges. This contrasts with the JAA MCP certificate, which carries only SIC privileges.
Click to expand...

Actually that is true. With an R-ATP at a part 121 operator, you can only operate in the capacity of an SIC. Something that only requires a commercial...wouldn't be a 121 operation...which is what he clearly asked about.
 
NJP_MAN said:
R-ATPs are getting hired as easy as anybody else. It makes me mad I need 1500 because I got a degree other than aviation. How does getting an AV degree equal 500 more hours of FLIGHT experience ?
Click to expand...


They'll be hired when anyone with a "ATP" will due, but hours are still king, and a Jr. ATP in a resume stack with a real ATP, guess you gets the first offer.

This Jr ATP thing offends me and cheapens the ticket.
 
I think the biggest benefit of the R-ATP right now is for those who took the ATP written back in July and might not be able to get to 1500 hours by July 2016, but can get to 750/1000/1250.
 
tlglenn said:
I think the biggest benefit of the R-ATP right now is for those who took the ATP written back in July and might not be able to get to 1500 hours by July 2016, but can get to 750/1000/1250.
Click to expand...

Bingo
 
James331 said:
They'll be hired when anyone with a "ATP" will due, but hours are still king, and a Jr. ATP in a resume stack with a real ATP, guess you gets the first offer.

This Jr ATP thing offends me and cheapens the ticket.
Click to expand...

Working a part 135 right now and it kills me to see pilots with lesser skill getting picked up by the regionals at 1k while I am still so far away. Due to the fact I got a real degree I have to fly another year and thats a lot of seniority if thats the kind of thing you're into.
 
It does seem weird that the faa said everyone needs more hours and then they come back and say 'except if you get a degree in xyz'.
If you were flying left seat with an aviation degree r-atp in the right seat how much grief would you give them?
 
farmerbrake said:
It does seem weird that the faa said everyone needs more hours and then they come back and say 'except if you get a degree in xyz'.
If you were flying left seat with an aviation degree r-atp in the right seat how much grief would you give them?
Click to expand...

Why give them grief at all ? 2 years ago that right seat pilot could have legally had 250 hrs.
 
James331 said:
But none did.
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If you flew 121 for GLA maybe. But you didn't even need any kind of ATP so at least now there is some kind of fisher price ATP, so I don't see how someone would give them grief if they are "more qualified" than ever to be a FO.
 
farmerbrake said:
****I am not starting this thread to debate going into an aviation degree in college, please avoid any discussion related to weather or not that is a good idea****

So I know that if you go to an accredited university and get a Bachelor of Science degree in an approved (by the faa) field you can apply to get your RESTRICTED-ATP at 1000 hrs vs. The normal 1500.
My question is: so what? If I understand the Regs right you can only be hired by a part 121 to serve as second in command. Which means you can't do any flying right?
Would a 121 even want to hire an R-ATP?
Also, just for clarification can someone explain exactly what part 121 operations do? I'm fairly certain I know just want a second/third opinion.

So what is the real benefit of getting an R-ATP?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure whether the weather has anything to do with all this, but the FO/SIC in an airliner usually flys every other leg. If the plane has tiller steering, the captain usually takes it sometime after touchdown.
 
Henning said:
I'm not sure whether the weather has anything to do with all this, but the FO/SIC in an airliner usually flys every other leg. If the plane has tiller steering, the captain usually takes it sometime after touchdown.
Click to expand...
Sorry, you know how smart these dumb phones are with their auto correct. Haha.
Thanks for the reply though. Glad I have the forum to help inform me properly about the r-atp.
 
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James331 said:
But none did.
Click to expand...

In the last big hiring when the legacy carriers shed their low occupancy mid range routes to regional carriers, there were some hires being done in the 250-400 hr range. They were furloughed shortly thereafter when the bottom fell out of the market in 2007/2008.

When I started flying United was hiring women as pilots with as low as 400hrs to try to fulfill a court judgement. They were also hiring men at 400hrs (military back then barely flew, so some guys were coming out with that) as FE back when they had a lot of three pilot planes left. That's why getting the FEX written done was part of what everyone did. Few planes flying anymore require FEs, but I think Flying Tigers still uses some.
 
Henning said:
I'm not sure whether the weather has anything to do with all this, but the FO/SIC in an airliner usually flys every other leg. If the plane has tiller steering, the captain usually takes it sometime after touchdown.
Click to expand...

A little clarification. Airbus has tillers left and right, as do later model Boeings.

Airbus procedures are when it's the FO's leg, he does everything from pushback, starting, taxi, flying, landing and taxi back as well as parking. Captain does all duties of the PM.
 
Henning said:
In the last big hiring when the legacy carriers shed their low occupancy mid range routes to regional carriers, there were some hires being done in the 250-400 hr range. They were furloughed shortly thereafter when the bottom fell out of the market in 2007/2008.

When I started flying United was hiring women as pilots with as low as 400hrs to try to fulfill a court judgement. They were also hiring men at 400hrs (military back then barely flew, so some guys were coming out with that) as FE back when they had a lot of three pilot planes left. That's why getting the FEX written done was part of what everyone did. Few planes flying anymore require FEs, but I think Flying Tigers still uses some.
Click to expand...

I thought it would be cool to add FE but I never could figure out what was needed other than the FEX knowledge test. Is there additional training to the exam?
 
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