Responsibilities and flying

[SixPapaCharlie]

Whatever you do, just keep the vehicles and the recording devices far away from the users.

Let's be real here folks, the only thing that makes most of us different from the young ones coming up is the lack of evidence.

That's a very good point.
I forgot the laundry list of things I got away with.

I can't imagine doing have the stupid things I did and there being a camera in everyone's pocket.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Let's be real here folks, the only thing that makes most of us different from the young ones coming up is the lack of evidence of what we may (or may not) have done.

Yeah, but it is one thing to do these things knowing that they are wrong (We all knew it was wrong, didn't we?) and quite another to basically ask permission to do what we know is wrong, as seems to be the case with the OP.

So even though most of us have done things in the past that we knew were wrong, we didn't ask permission to do them.

 

[cowman]

Whatever you do, just keep the vehicles and the recording devices far away from the users.

Let's be real here folks, the only thing that makes most of us different from the young ones coming up is the lack of evidence of what we may (or may not) have done.

Yeah, but it is one thing to do these things knowing that they are wrong (We all knew it was wrong, didn't we?) and quite another to basically ask permission to do what we know is wrong, as seems to be the case with the OP.

So even though most of us have done things in the past that we knew were wrong, we didn't ask permission to do them.

Actually, that brings up a pretty big point.

With the advent of all this recording technology, rapidly searchable databases, comments/pictures/video that effectively are on the internet forever are we going to have to rethink some things?

As was brought up by several, a lot of good kids from every generation have gotten into stuff they weren't supposed. They either didn't get caught or the evidence was (relatively) soon forgotten. These days, we have a permanently and infinitely accessible record and "zero tolerance" is the mantra.

How many people who ended up good and productive members of our society would have been railroaded by this new order? How many of you who did some bad things really regret doing it now vs cherishing the memories of more reckless times? I have to be honest for me it's the latter... I never drank or did drugs but I did a lot of other questionable stuff.

Perhaps, we as a society need to rethink how we handle stuff. Maybe we are going to have to be more forgiving of past sins..

But for the OP, none of us have any authority over this. We can't give you permission. If you get caught you're screwed and all anyone here can do is tell you that.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Yeah, but it is one thing to do these things knowing that they are wrong (We all knew it was wrong, didn't we?) and quite another to basically ask permission to do what we know is wrong, as seems to be the case with the OP.

So even though most of us have done things in the past that we knew were wrong, we didn't ask permission to do them.

The internet barely existed at the time I may or may not have done these things of which we speak. What did exist was the old rec.aviation boards, over a 1,200 baud modem. Don't recall if people asked this stuff back then or not. I suspect not, because we weren't as concerned about medical certification questions and the prying eyes of Big Data at the time.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

How many people who ended up good and productive members of our society would have been railroaded by this new order?

What is bizarre is that we have the facade of zero tolerance, yet we have current and former Presidents who have admitted to these bad behaviors and they have been (generally) forgiven. It's time to just admit that young people will do stupid things, and it is our job as adults to 1) discourage it, to the reasonable extent you can; and 2) provide a safe enough environment that if they do choose to do stupid things, they won't be likely to hurt themselves or others while trying.

My high school's Students Against Drunk Driving group, in cooperation with our local Red Cross, used to offer free rides home on Friday/Saturday nights to students who need a "safe ride". No questions asked. Red Cross station wagons driven by students, with another SADD member along to assist. Now, you can't legally just have two 17 year olds in the same car in California.

 

[onwards]

This is a question each person must answer for themselves.

There is a reward - a sense of belonging to a peer group, social acceptance, the high from the drug, etc.

There is a risk - if you get caught, there will be repercussions, including the likelihood of losing your license and a shot at an aviation career.

Humans are not so good at evaluating long term risk vs short term reward, unfortunately, as is proven in study after study. It's why most people don't save enough for retirement, for example. So... Draw your own conclusions.

 

[warthog1984]

Whatever you do, just keep the vehicles and the recording devices far away from the users.

Let's be real here folks, the only thing that makes most of us different from the young ones coming up is the lack of evidence of what we may (or may not) have done.

Actually it was 2 things now destroyed by my parents' generation (baby boomers): lack of evidence and a societal openness to "new starts". The willingness to believe that someone's past does not dictate their future was one of the best things about society in the 1960's and before.

Now? Fuhgeddaboudit. You did something stupid/childish as a teen? Obviously you must still be doing stupid stuff in your 20's, 30's, and beyond- no second chance for you!.

 

[onwards]

Actually it was 2 things now destroyed by my parents' generation (baby boomers): lack of evidence and a societal openness to "new starts". The willingness to believe that someone's past does not dictate their future was one of the best things about society in the 1960's and before.

Now? Fuhgeddaboudit. You did something stupid/childish as a teen? Obviously you must still be doing stupid stuff in your 20's, 30's, and beyond- no second chance for you!.

So very true.

I have a direct report that got caught doing meth about a decade ago, at a low time in his life, when he was young (early 20's). Did community service, completely recovered, rebuilt his life, just got married, invested himself into learning and working in a new field, and just attained a most impressive credential.

Yet it isn't clear if it will be awarded to him due to that one long ago prior. I wrote a long letter on his behalf as his sponsor for the certification, and we are hoping they approve, but I just find the whole thing to be unnecessarily harsh and kinda stupid.

 

[txflyer]

Drugs and booze + PPL = lineboy

maybe.

 

[JHW]

Actually it was 2 things now destroyed by my parents' generation (baby boomers): lack of evidence and a societal openness to "new starts". The willingness to believe that someone's past does not dictate their future was one of the best things about society in the 1960's and before.

Now? Fuhgeddaboudit. You did something stupid/childish as a teen? Obviously you must still be doing stupid stuff in your 20's, 30's, and beyond- no second chance for you!.

The difference is, these days I have 50 applicants for the job to choose from. I don't have to roll the dice on someone with the slightest indiscretion in their past.

 

[Matthew]

The difference is, these days I have 50 applicants for the job to choose from. I don't have to roll the dice on someone with the slightest indiscretion in their past.

I was going to say - it isn't that the past is an indication of your future. It's that the past is a checkbox that's been checked on your list that someone else applying for the same job doesn't have checked on his.

 

[cowman]

The difference is, these days I have 50 applicants for the job to choose from. I don't have to roll the dice on someone with the slightest indiscretion in their past.

From an employer's perspective that makes sense. I mean odds are a 30 year old who got got caught smoking pot in college isn't really any worse of an employee for it but as you say you've got 49 other choices.

Really sucks for people looking for work though. The worst thing I've seen is employers using credit ratings as a measuring stick... great you're deep in debt and nobody will hire you because you're deep in debt.

Sooo glad I'm self employed now.

 

[ja_user]

We so credit and background checks, no drug tests.

 

[ktup-flyer]

I don't drink unless on vacation and don't do any drugs. This is my life long dream and there is no way in hell I am going to jeopardize it by doing something stupid.

 

[Kaniki]

When I started high school, my Dad basically said "Do whatever you want. Have fun, but don't get caught doing something you shouldn't be doing. Because if I have to get involved (ie, bail) you're going to regret it. Notice I didn't say not to do things you shouldn't be doing, I said don't get caught. Though, obviously, not doing them in the first place drastically reduces the risk of getting caught. So don't take the risks if you're not prepared for the consequences."

Of course none of us would ever do something we shouldn't be doing. But, IF WE DID, it would likely be based on taking precautions to not get caught and/or the risks being worth the consequences.

I gave my kids almost exactly the same speech. I pointed out that I was willing to give them more freedom than any of their friends had -- but if they had a problem that came up on my radar, it meant that the leash was too long, and would have to be shortened.

We've got some funny stories about the lengths they went to to make sure that didn't happen. The sheer humiliation they felt at letting things get far enough out of control that we had to get involved was probably the best teacher of all. They'd been so proud of their ability to manage adult-level risk -- and then they got cocky and blew it, and had to be pulled back a bit. The shame was excruciating.

But I'm convinced that those early mistakes taught them more about handling adult life responsibly than any number of lectures from us ever could have. And they got really good at sussing out the likely consequences of their actions.

 

[Kaniki]

36 hours?! I certainly should be able to enjoy a glass of wine at dinner or an afternoon mojito by the pool and fly at 10am the following day. 8 hours is more than adequate for one drink. I use a 12 hour rule personally. If every pilot waited 36 hours there'd be no freight pilots!

True: but remember, I'm new at this, and being extremely careful until both my skill and my understanding of my limits improve. My CFII recommends 24 hours, and I'll probably end up there -- but for now, caution prevails. Being inexperienced, I even try not to fly while over-caffeinated. (Did that once. Never again.)

Also: I don't drink that much to start with. So 24 hours is an easy rule for me to follow. And the odds that I'll ever have an ATP certification are pretty much zero, so the nation's freight is safe.