Repossessed 1976 Rockwell 112TC

bstratt

bstratt

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Hi guys. Haven't been on at all in what seems like ages. Been insanely busy with the latest acquisition. Also haven't been doing much flying - 4 hrs in the last 6 months.

Anyway, we (the bank) now have title to a 1976 Rockwell International Model 112TC. Unfortunately at the moment the prior owner hasn't delivered the log books to us, but we know who did the annual in 2008. I presume they can certify all AD's had been complied with up to that point.

TTAF and engine - 2,073 hours - So engine is 73 hours past TBO - no idea of compression tests at the moment. Original equipment, with a 396 dock in the panel (396 removed).

Anyone interested?
 

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Man, that's gonna be a tough sale at any price without logs.

I know it bites, but if the logs can be "bought" (maybe you make a favorable liquidating agreement with the defaulting Owner), you can really improve the bank's take.
 
The owner is required by regulation to turn over the log books. See 91.419. I would threaten a civil action. Damages would be significant as the value of the airplane is greatly depreciated without the log books.
 
As far as we can tell he has fled to Nova Scotia, Canada.

We have been unable to find him. I don't think that's an extraditable offense!!!!:D
 
John Collins said:
The owner is required by regulation to turn over the log books. See 91.419. I would threaten a civil action. Damages would be significant as the value of the airplane is greatly depreciated without the log books.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl: It's like squeezing blood from a turnip, a waste of time trying.
 
John Collins said:
The owner is required by regulation to turn over the log books. See 91.419. I would threaten a civil action. Damages would be significant as the value of the airplane is greatly depreciated without the log books.
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If he can't pay the note on the plane, how's he going to pay a civil judgement? This is the aviation equivalent of folks that trash a house when the bank forecloses.

The most important things in the logs are the records of the ADs. There were a couple of major ones way back when. Without the logs, this plane may be better off for parts, which is very unfortunate because there are few 112TCs out there. Are you certain that the engine has never been OH? Unless the owner(s) was/were gentle with the plane, it may well have been OH earlier than TBO. The engine core is probably worth a lot by itself.
 
The logs are what are particularly hurtful on this deal. Recreating them could be a pretty expensive proposition, have to research and recheck all ADs and such, I'm not familiar enough with the type to know which ones will bite. That and a runnout engine that likely needs a camshaft along with an old panel and a crap market and you get a pretty tough sale.
 
If it happens, this wouldn't be the first time the logs showed up in the hands of new purchaser. Numerous repo airplanes from SOB (south of border) owners have been purchased without logs, with tacit knowledge that the paperwork will soon be "found" by an FBO, former pilot or mechanic or someone else other than the defaulted prior owner.
 
Henning said:
The logs are what are particularly hurtful on this deal. Recreating them could be a pretty expensive proposition, have to research and recheck all ADs and such, I'm not familiar enough with the type to know which ones will bite. That and a runnout engine that likely needs a camshaft along with an old panel and a crap market and you get a pretty tough sale.
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wing spar, vertical fin attachment, and seat belt attachment ADs were the biggies.
 
Henning said:
:rofl::rofl::rofl: It's like squeezing blood from a turnip, a waste of time trying.
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Exactly!

wabower said:
If it happens, this wouldn't be the first time the logs showed up in the hands of new purchaser. Numerous repo airplanes from SOB (south of border) owners have been purchased without logs, with tacit knowledge that the paperwork will soon be "found" by an FBO, former pilot or mechanic or someone else other than the defaulted prior owner.
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Bingo! Wayne is absolutely correct. I've heard of more than logs that have gone missing just prior to repo.
 
John Collins said:
The owner is required by regulation to turn over the log books. See 91.419. I would threaten a civil action. Damages would be significant as the value of the airplane is greatly depreciated without the log books.
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The most interesting statement in that regulation is this one, from the buyer's perspective:

However, custody of records by the seller does not relieve the purchaser of the responsibility under §91.417(c) to make the records available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board ( NTSB ).
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This aircraft needs an annual, the ADs must be complied with then, so whats the problem?

where is the aircraft?
 
Tom-D said:
If it were pristine and all logs were in order what would it be worth?
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I have no idea. But my view of what missing logbooks are REALLY worth doesn't seem to match what a bunch of people here think they are worth. If the airplane is worth the effort, I don't much care, but some people think the plane is worthless without logs.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I have no idea. But my view of what missing logbooks are REALLY worth doesn't seem to match what a bunch of people here think they are worth. If the airplane is worth the effort, I don't much care, but some people think the plane is worthless without logs.
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I'm not one of them, I could re-create new logs in less than a day after I get the CD from OKC, get any and all work orders from the maintenance facility, and two new log books. and a away we go.

do the annual, verify all the ADs, log them, make the first entry starting the new log.

To get the aircraft Total Time is easy, use the records from the maintenance facility and add the difference between that number and what the tack reads.

Were I the Bank,,,, I'd have the annual completed, new logs started, and have the aircraft test flown and change their ad to read "fresh annual, and recently flown" :)
 
Tom-D said:
I'm not one of them, I could re-create new logs in less than a day after I get the CD from OKC, get any and all work orders from the maintenance facility, and two new log books. and a away we go.

do the annual, verify all the ADs, log them, make the first entry starting the new log.

To get the aircraft Total Time is easy, use the records from the maintenance facility and add the difference between that number and what the tack reads.

Were I the Bank,,,, I'd have the annual completed, new logs started, and have the aircraft test flown and change their ad to read "fresh annual, and recently flown" :)
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Interesting. I presumed with the shop that did the last annual, they could certify that all AD's to that point were completed, couldn't they? I mean that's part of the annual. So it would only be after that.

How difficult is it to recreate logs?
 
bstratt said:
Interesting. I presumed with the shop that did the last annual, they could certify that all AD's to that point were completed, couldn't they? I mean that's part of the annual. So it would only be after that.

How difficult is it to recreate logs?
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No, That is not how it works, I don't know that aircraft from any other piece of junk. So I must verify that each and every piece of paper work is correct for that aircraft, that includes the registration, because if the registration isn't on record, I can't even work on it.
When an A&P-IA signs the aircraft as airworthy, they are taking the responsibility that each AD has been completed and logged correctly. If you have seen this aircraft before that's pretty obvious that you been thru this with this aircraft before, so it's an easy do. the first time takes time and can result in a horror story.
The previous facility can provide the hours when they last saw the aircraft, and any 337s that may be on file with them, but those 337s will be on file at OKC too, and will show on the CD.

to add, you now have no proof that any ADs are complied with, you must recreate those also, they may be part of the log books or a separate record. The FAA doesn't care, but you must be able to show compliance some how.

Creating a new set of logs is easy, buy 2 new books and make the correct entry.
 
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wsuffa said:
If he can't pay the note on the plane, how's he going to pay a civil judgement? This is the aviation equivalent of folks that trash a house when the bank forecloses.

The most important things in the logs are the records of the ADs. There were a couple of major ones way back when. Without the logs, this plane may be better off for parts, which is very unfortunate because there are few 112TCs out there. Are you certain that the engine has never been OH? Unless the owner(s) was/were gentle with the plane, it may well have been OH earlier than TBO. The engine core is probably worth a lot by itself.
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It is a moot point in this case based on the OP response, but this is not always true. Just because one can't afford to continue to make their payments on the aircraft, doesn't mean they don't have other assets. The only recourse on the loan is repossession, but a civil matter can go after other assets if they exist.
 
John Collins said:
It is a moot point in this case based on the OP response, but this is not always true. Just because one can't afford to continue to make their payments on the aircraft, doesn't mean they don't have other assets. The only recourse on the loan is repossession, but a civil matter can go after other assets if they exist.
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True, however there are likely already actions on those assets as well with other people having priority claim and you'll waste your money filing lol.
 
Abandoning all your assets and running to Canada means there is something else up. This guy didn't sink slowly, he crashed! I think those logs are going to turn up.

IMHO

By the way...$6050
 
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