Renter Insurance

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evapilotaz

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Sorry if this has been covered.

I'm renting from a FBO for the first time in a Week.

Here is what they say about insurance coverage.

Q: What Insurance coverage do I have when I use Rental aircraft?
Each aircraft is covered for 1000,000 liability 100,000 injury and property, with a $1000 in motion and $250 not in motion deductibles. Wings270 LLC urges all users to obtain a renters policy.

I will be flying with a CFI to work on getting my Flight review done. So as a renter and flying with a CFI am I liable for any damage to the airplane?

I plan on getting renters insurance but not until I'm PPL current.

Thanks.
 
I think renter's insurance is always a good idea, even if your flight school/FBO tells you, "Don't worry, you're covered!" In the end, it's all about risk tolerance. I like to sleep at night, knowing that our house wouldn't be lost if I managed to do something stupid while flying. Anyway, I have mine through Avemco. Reasonable rates, helpful people.
 
Sounds like the same thing we had at the school I worked at. You'd be on the hook for their deductible, which you're personal insurance would cover if you had it. The catch here is that the school's policy will only cover damage that wasn't caused by the renter's neglect or the like. And you can bet the schools insurance will use their (relatively) vast resources to "prove" that the damage was caused by the renter, and thus sticking you with the whole bill. I would always encourage our renters to get personal insurance...
 
With my school you are covered with a cfi, with solo you are not covered you have to have renter's. If you plan on renting from them afterwards you would need it anyway most likely..
 
Ok the delay of getting renters insurance is I need my medical completed and will be done next week a few days before I go flying with a CFI. I want to make sure I am cleared medically before I get renters insurance. I'm not sure what is the turn around time to get renters insurance once I apply. Does it happen the same day with AOPA or Avemco once signed up?

Thank you
 
I am currently out of BFR after a long break. I do not plan to on getting renters again until I am signed off. While I suppose there is some minimal risk here until I am signed off I can't fly without the CFI and his "company" owns the plane and he is PIC since I can't be.

While I put nothing past an insurance company trying to recoup a loss I would trust my lawyer to point out in court if necessary FAR 91.3a and if the CFI is PIC he is "directly responsible" ...

If I was a student and soloing I would have insurance as I did the first time around.
 
DFH65 that was what I wanted to do. I do not want to get renters insurance until my Flight review and I'm signed off with an instructor. I just want to make sure I'm not responsible for any damages under the instruction of a CFI.

Thanks.
 
It's extremely unlikely they could blame you and make it stick if you were taking instruction from a CFI.
 
If you are not PIC and are with a CFI, the CFI insurance will cover it. However, once your solo doing your thing then yes I would get renters. Like mentioned above look for a subrogation clause. While the school might hold you responsible for the deductible the insurance company can come after you for what they had to pay out.
 
simtech said:
If you are not PIC and are with a CFI, the CFI insurance will cover it. However, once your solo doing your thing then yes I would get renters. Like mentioned above look for a subrogation clause. While the school might hold you responsible for the deductible the insurance company can come after you for what they had to pay out.
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+1

I wish I had done renters insurance when I started my going solo. I had a prop strike on my second solo, and ended up paying half of the schools deductible $1500. I got lucky, the flight school owner hadnt had me sign his contract with subrogation clause, so insurance didnt chase for whole cost of repairs. I acquired renters insurance next week and always recommend it now.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Sounds like the same thing we had at the school I worked at. You'd be on the hook for their deductible, which you're personal insurance would cover if you had it. The catch here is that the school's policy will only cover damage that wasn't caused by the renter's neglect or the like. And you can bet the schools insurance will use their (relatively) vast resources to "prove" that the damage was caused by the renter, and thus sticking you with the whole bill. I would always encourage our renters to get personal insurance...
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Just curious, what sort of damage wouldn't be arguably related to pilot negligence?
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Just curious, what sort of damage wouldn't be arguably related to pilot negligence?
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Say, having a legitimately parked airplane hit by a fuel truck or another airplane.

The tropical storm at Sun'n'Fun a few years ago…

A sudden oil leak leading to a thrown rod.

Any maintenance issue on a Cessna that would require opening the cowl to detect (not legal to do so for a renter).
 
I have renters/borrowers insurance with Avemco, called, paid and emailed me the policy same-day.

Very reasonable rates.
 
evapilotaz said:
I'm renting from a FBO for the first time in a Week.

Here is what they say about insurance coverage.

Q: What Insurance coverage do I have when I use Rental aircraft?
Each aircraft is covered for 1000,000 liability 100,000 injury and property, with a $1000 in motion and $250 not in motion deductibles. Wings270 LLC urges all users to obtain a renters policy.
Click to expand...
They are telling you that they are covered, but you are not.

I will be flying with a CFI to work on getting my Flight review done. So as a renter and flying with a CFI am I liable for any damage to the airplane?
Click to expand...
Based on that, yes. Only way you're not is if their policy makes renter pilots "additional insureds". That's not likely, and you'd have to read their policy to be sure you are so covered.

I plan on getting renters insurance but not until I'm PPL current.
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Then realize that you are hanging out a mile unless you're flying with one of their instructors, and maybe still even then.
 
Seriously get it at least before you solo. I didn't and on my first solo I was on downwind just about to start putting flaps down and thought "oh crap, I forgot to buy renter's insurance. Don't f--- this one up!" I did my three landings just fine but it sure gave me a bad feeling when I realized it in the air!

Bought renter's insurance that day. Huge feeling of relief.

I bought it from AOPA since I was already a member. The phone support was very helpful, answered all my questions. Have also heard good things about Avemco.
 
I really don't see how an insurance company could (realize anyone can sue for anything) come after someone who is not legal to be PIC when there is a legal PIC in the plane (CFI). Really as a student or even as a PPL without a current flight review are you legally anything more than a passenger?
 
DFH65 said:
Really as a student or even as a PPL without a current flight review are you legally anything more than a passenger?
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I don't know, but if I have my name on the rental agreement, and I sign it out, I kind of figure I'm responsible for bringing it back no worse than when I took it out.
 
dans2992 said:
It's extremely unlikely they could blame you and make it stick if you were taking instruction from a CFI.
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You would have an argument, but no guarantee.

To know of your potential liability, you need to see at least 1) the FBO's insurance policy 2) the rental agreement, 3) the tort law in your state.
 
Flymeariver said:
+1

I got lucky, the flight school owner hadnt had me sign his contract with subrogation clause, so insurance didnt chase for whole cost of repairs. I acquired renters insurance next week and always recommend it now.
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In most instances, you do not have to sign a contract with a subrogation clause to be the target of subrogation. Most states allow subrogation under the common law. So, if you damage insured property, the insurer pays its insured, then the insurance carrier gets to sue you whether you have consented or not.

Now, their might be a waiver of subrogation provision in your rental agreement that protects you from a subrogation claim.
 
Ron Levy said:
They are telling you that they are covered, but you are not.

Based on that, yes. Only way you're not is if their policy makes renter pilots "additional insureds". That's not likely, and you'd have to read their policy to be sure you are so covered.
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Depending on the language used, it is also possible that the rental agreement might be found to be a waiver of subrogation. In some instances, when an agreement provides that one party is going to get insurance against a certain risk of loss, some jurisdictions will view that as the parties' allocation of risk to an insurance carrier that defeats a subrogation claim. In such instances, the agreement is viewed as an agreement for one party to purchase insurance for the benefit of both. This comes up in construction law all the time.
 
Can anyone cite an example of subrogation or attempted subrogation other than significant and agregious violations such as flying drunk?

How likely is it?

Effectively, the insurance companies are getting paid twice to protect one asset.

Note- not talking about the deductible here. That's not an issue.
 
Someone I know had a club go after him claiming he locked up the brakes and caused a bald spot on the tires. They later gave up but they were going to have him pay for the tire if they had their way. He didn't do it btw, it was bald before that by my own personal verification.

+1 for the renters insurance, I don't even really care if the club plane has their own insurance. If I'm solo then I have insurance.
 
Ok, that's a pretty minor expense...

I'm thinking more of something 5+ figures...
 
I have never signed a rental agreement. Back in the day I was in a club and I had renters after I soloed. The guy I am working with on my BFR. I show up fly with him and hand him cash or a check when I am done. He gives me a receipt generally the next time I see him. I have signed nothing.
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, that's a pretty minor expense...

I'm thinking more of something 5+ figures...
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Well, one thing that I guess could get tacked on would be loss of use of the aircraft. That may not be covered by a FBO policy but renters insurance would (usually) pick that up. Probably wont hit 5 figures but a busy FBO that wants to get $800 a day out of a plane might charge you for the two weeks it's out for repairs from something like a prop strike. No personal experience with that, though, but I imagine it happens.
 
Are you judgement proof?

If not, get a renter's liability policy. Any policy from a flight school or CFI protects them from liability, not you.

If there is an accident involving a third party, such as someone injured when you land on a road after an engine failure, you will be personally sued.

Coverage for damage to a rented plan is of minor importance by comparison.
 
PPC1052 said:
In most instances, you do not have to sign a contract with a subrogation clause to be the target of subrogation. Most states allow subrogation under the common law. So, if you damage insured property, the insurer pays its insured, then the insurance carrier gets to sue you whether you have consented or not.

Now, their might be a waiver of subrogation provision in your rental agreement that protects you from a subrogation claim.
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Perhaps I just got lucky. Damage was $25,000 so glad I lucked out. Never go without insurance now.
 
whats the general rule of thumb as to how much coverage one would need? i don't have renters insurance and i've soloed and done my solo cross country. the first school i went to required a policy up front for $20,000 damage coverage. the one i'm at now hasn't said anything about it so i thought i was covered by their policy while i was a student there. i was going to wait till after my checkride to get coverage.
 
patmike said:
whats the general rule of thumb as to how much coverage one would need?
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How much is the plane you're flying worth? How much damage do you think you might cause to it?

i don't have renters insurance and i've soloed and done my solo cross country. the first school i went to required a policy up front for $20,000 damage coverage. the one i'm at now hasn't said anything about it so i thought i was covered by their policy while i was a student there.
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Not something you want to assume unless you have enough cash in your pocket to buy the plane you're flying without batting an eyelash.

i was going to wait till after my checkride to get coverage.
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Guess you're rethinking that thought.
 
DFH65 said:
I really don't see how an insurance company could (realize anyone can sue for anything) come after someone who is not legal to be PIC when there is a legal PIC in the plane (CFI). Really as a student or even as a PPL without a current flight review are you legally anything more than a passenger?
Click to expand...

One FBO in my area uses contract CFIs. Their rental agreement states the person controlling the aircraft at the time of the accident is liable for the $2500 deductable.
 
patmike said:
whats the general rule of thumb as to how much coverage one would need? i don't have renters insurance and i've soloed and done my solo cross country. the first school i went to required a policy up front for $20,000 damage coverage. the one i'm at now hasn't said anything about it so i thought i was covered by their policy while i was a student there. i was going to wait till after my checkride to get coverage.
Click to expand...

If you are single/no kids, insure the hull for 75% of its value and carry a lot of liability insurance. People cost a lot more than planes.
 
Clip4 said:
One FBO in my area uses contract CFIs. Their rental agreement states the person controlling the aircraft at the time of the accident is liable for the $2500 deductable.
Click to expand...
I imagine this would not be particularly successful in court, especially if the Student Pilot then sues the instructor (and the school for vicarious liability as the instructor's employer) for failing to fulfill their duties as PIC (who is legally the final authority responsible for the safety of the flight no matter whose hands are on the controls).
 
Clip4 said:
One FBO in my area uses contract CFIs. Their rental agreement states the person controlling the aircraft at the time of the accident is liable for the $2500 deductable.
Click to expand...

So you buy your burgeoning Charles Lindbergh a lesson for his 15th birthday and the CFI says here you give landing it a try and unlucky Lindy Jr. manages to crash the plane the kid is on the hook for $2500. Interesting.

I realize that is ridiculous but so is the concept of charging the person controlling the aircraft at the time for the accident. My lawyer would have a field day with that. Having said that if that is how the agreement read I wouldn't rent from them.
 
Ron Levy said:
I imagine this would not be particularly successful in court, especially if the Student Pilot then sues the instructor (and the school for vicarious liability as the instructor's employer) for failing to fulfill their duties as PIC (who is legally the final authority responsible for the safety of the flight no matter whose hands are on the controls).
Click to expand...

I agree, I am just stating what the renters agreement states.
 
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