Rental Planes - Am I Alone in my Fears?

denverpilot said:
I was in a flight club that kept immaculate airplanes once. What goes along with that is a serious cussing out by the aircraft owner if you don't clean up the aircraft after use...

How many pilots spending over $100/hr on a rental's egos could handle that?

The guy didn't need the club... he didn't need the money... he did it so he could afford to own TWO aircraft instead of one... he eventually sold the airplanes and the club (which had three airplanes) folded within a month.

The club provided cleaning materials, kept the aircraft in hangars (in Murphy's hangar which wasn't Murphy's back then, and the one next door, to be exact! Grin...), and the owner himself typically visited the airplanes on about an every-other-day basis.

If he found trash or dirt or mud in the carpet or wayward pop cans... whatever... everyone who'd flown the airplane got the third degree, until he figured out who hadn't learned the childhood lesson to clean up after themselves. And then he "taught" them the lesson their momma forgot.

This included VACCUMMING out dirt if you tracked any in. Each hangar had a vaccuum and you were EXPECTED to use it. Bugs on leading edges? No... never. You clean them off before you leave. And if you spilled oil and it had run back on the belly? You got under the damn airplane and cleaned it off. Even if it was the pilot before you who did it and the oil is still seeping down from somewhere and on the belly after YOU landed... you cleaned it off.

How many renters today would put up with an owner who called and cussed them out if the aircraft was dirty or otherwise not taken care of under their care? That guy wasn't "PC" at all.

Made for some damn nice airplanes to fly...

He also returned the care with maintenance care of his own... if you broke down somewhere he'd move heaven and earth to get the aircraft fixed, find you a ride home, whatever.

Pride of ownership was strong with that dude...
Click to expand...
Where's the "Like" button!
 
schmookeeg said:
109 wet tach for a skyhawk, 119 for an SP, and "still considering"? really?
Click to expand...

If I lived closer to VNY I would be all over this... They have their own CFII's etc.....

zaitcev said:
Yeah, but it's a club. I don't think I would ever join a club. What does it matter how much they charge? My health is more important.
Click to expand...

I was one of the first members of the Long Beach Flying Club.... and was there until 2001 when I moved away from LGB...

The best situation short of ownership I have ever had for flying..
 
Last edited:
It's real simple. When airplanes become revenue sources the money becomes the driving force behind many decisions that would be otherwise be made differently in a "it's my baby" pride-of-ownership scenario. Charter jets and turboprops get beat up too, so the behavious isn't limited to rental beaters.

nddons said:
Why are these things mutually exclusive?

I'm not talking about you, but about the mentality of some flight schools. That thought process scares the **** out of me. If they don't clean the underbelly more than once per year, if that, I have little comfort that the engine and other systems are up to par.

Are we renters that unsophisticated that we will take whatever POS we are offered to rent? I guess the answer is yes, absent any real competition.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
It's real simple. When airplanes become revenue sources the money becomes the driving force behind many decisions that would be otherwise be made differently in a "it's my baby" pride-of-ownership scenario. Charter jets and turboprops get beat up too, so the behavious isn't limited to rental beaters.
Click to expand...

At the LBG Flying Club, many of these planes were privately owned and many of the owners to good care of them...

As I recall, one of the owners was there every morning to look over his 172.
 
Sorry, I don't buy that cosmetics indicate "a deeper problem." They indicate prioritization, which is a good quality.

The FBO doesn't do you much good if it goes out of business because they spend their money getting stains out of the carpets.

Learn to distinguish real problems from fake ones. A flat spot on a tire not worn through is not an airworthiness issue (though the passengers might not like the sound). A collapsing front seat is a real problem.

I really don't care what the plane looks like as long as it flies safely.

Almost by definition, a 40 year old plane tied down outside is going to look like hell.
 
wabower said:
It's real simple. When airplanes become revenue sources the money becomes the driving force behind many decisions that would be otherwise be made differently in a "it's my baby" pride-of-ownership scenario. Charter jets and turboprops get beat up too, so the behavious isn't limited to rental beaters.
Click to expand...

I disagree and agree at the same time,

it all comes down to the owner and priorities
I own 3 rental aircraft at the moment and spend quite a bit on aesthetics , in fact almost the same as I do on actual maintenence . The Cherokee 140 / 160 I bought will get a Jetglo paint job next spring to match my 180 and Cessna 150, I have already replaced and reprinted all the cracked plastic . people enjoy flying nice looking planes and they will come back for more vs a beater.
 
How many of those daily trips would have been necessary if he had been flying it himself?

Ventucky Red said:
At the LBG Flying Club, many of these planes were privately owned and many of the owners to good care of them...

As I recall, one of the owners was there every morning to look over his 172.
Click to expand...
 
How many hours of net revenue from rental are required to pay for a paint job in your area?

taters said:
I disagree and agree at the same time,

it all comes down to the owner and priorities
I own 3 rental aircraft at the moment and spend quite a bit on aesthetics , in fact almost the same as I do on actual maintenence . The Cherokee 140 / 160 I bought will get a Jetglo paint job next spring to match my 180 and Cessna 150, I have already replaced and reprinted all the cracked plastic . people enjoy flying nice looking planes and they will come back for more vs a beater.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
How many hours of net revenue from rental are required to pay for a paint job in your area?
Click to expand...

Well I'm fine stripping planes myself and delivering them to the shop ready for prime....so that cuts that down quite a bit , but even in a 700-1000 annual hour market it's ALOT no doubt .
 
wabower said:
It's real simple. When airplanes become succubus-grade cash-vacuums the money becomes the driving force behind many decisions that would be otherwise be made differently in a "it's my baby" pride-of-ownership scenario. Charter jets and turboprops get beat up too, so the behavious isn't limited to rental beaters.
Click to expand...

FTFY :D
 
Well, mine stays stripped 24/7 so we both know how much work is entailed in that deal. :D

taters said:
Well I'm fine stripping planes myself and delivering them to the shop ready for prime....so that cuts that down quite a bit , but even in a 700-1000 annual hour market it's ALOT no doubt .
Click to expand...
 
QUOTE=VWGhiaBob;1160271]To Denver Pilot...

Who says you can't take good care of a 1970's car or plane? Here are the two in my garage (yes really):




[/QUOTE]


If you're ever looking to get rid of that Karmann Ghia, I'd love to buy it... :D
 
VWGhiaBob said:
To Denver Pilot...

Who says you can't take good care of a 1970's car or plane? Here are the two in my garage (yes really):
Click to expand...
and how well do you think your pinto would fare if it taken out every day in the avis lineup ? About like the airplanes you are renting. Since you obviously have a (perhaps slightly warped) sense of pride of ownership, why not redirect that instinct to owning something with wings? if you can keep a karman ghia running you'll have no problem with a C-120 or tri-pacer etc
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Non-functioning fuel gauges. Cracked plastic pieces. Doors that don't close properly. "In-op" signs on the panel. Years old stains on the carpets. Seats that don't really work right (one of which collapsed on downwind, causing a sudden altitude change and a need to recover immediately), fading paint, fiberglass pieces with fine cracks.

I fly at a So. Cal. FBO that's supposedly "the best" for maintenace. Folks tell me that "paint covers a lot" and that I shouldn't worry about all the "little things" and that aren't maintained properly on the planes I fly. They tell me cosmetics shouldn't matter.

Still, this is my life and my hobby. When I sit in a plane that's theoretically in great flying condition, but it looks and feels like it belongs in the junkyard, it bothers me. Not to mention...I could never take up friends and family in one of these planes.

OK, logically the planes might be safe. But in my experience outside aviation, inattention to details leads to inattention to the bigger things.

Am I being overly obsessive about this? Should I just get over it? Or should I bite the bullet and buy a plane I can pamper? Or does someone know of a So. Cal. FBO that has nicer planes (and maybe charges a bit more)?

Advise appreciated!
Click to expand...

Bob, you are NOT alone in your fears, I felt compelled to jump on here after reading your post. The rental and club choices are pretty dismal in Socal. (less than an hour from my home) I often wonder if my predecessors learned to fly in 35 year old airplanes as I have. I was shocked when I first saw the insides of the rental fleet of a well know Cessna Pilot Center in the valley on my first day of training.
I would never fly my family in one of these planes and I was sure glad when my training was done to never step into them again. It used to bother me too. OK, so your done with your training now move up to a newer plane that's not so embarrassing and scary for the family. Take some burger runs, great! You can only do so many of those after a couple years. Want to actually GO somewhere? Now you have to pay an overnight charge, hundreds of dollars just for the plane to sit there. (Who wants to fly to Vegas and just turn around an come back the same day?)
Most of my fellow students over the years are never seen again after they get their private and just stop flying according to my instructor, it's no wonder, and I certainly don't blame them.

I was determined not to be a non-flying license holder, after all go through all that training. Did lots of burger/1 day trips, then explored the aftermentioned club at VNY to try some overnight trips, and found out very quickly this was certainly NOT the end all solution. Sadly, the leadership and maintenance policies of the club is in need of a complete overhaul.

I love the hobby too, but am finding it an uphill battle to stay with it. The costs are just too great to fly anything you feel comfortable in that is not going to fall apart. Is it this way in the rest of the US? I envy those fortunate enough to be owners out there.

Mike
 
Last edited:
Hi Mike,

the key to having an expensive hobby like flying is zip code. Most of us can only afford one expensive hobby. You already have one called "living in CA". We've turned down a transfer to san diego 3 times because of that very reason.
 
Not having to pay for kids/marriage makes an airplane a lot more affordable. I didn't need to pay to buy the plane but even if I did I could make it work with the payment. It's just priorities.
 
JHW said:
Most of us can only afford one expensive hobby. You already have one called "living in CA".
Click to expand...
This is not quite the truth. Rentals in CA (or at least in NorCal) are consistently cheaper than elsewhere or at least competitive -- realistically speaking. Of course when this topic is brought up at PoA, folks fetch all sorts of secret rental deals, which magically disappear as soon as I visit the area.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Ventucky...yes...I am in touch with them and considering joining. My only issue is they only have one plane I qualified for and want to fly. This is a great club...one of the best anywhere.
Click to expand...

Bob, just be aware that there is a $3500 buy in, yes, you are on the tach not the hobbs, but your monthly fee of $140 will cancel those savings. As with most clubs, you can will be assessed hundreds of dollars for any surprise issues. You are on the hook for this as a partial owner. This happened when their newly purchased Diamond had a catastrophic engine failure, (on the runup at CMA, not in the air) The purchases and maintenance decisions made in the club are NOT yours, although the term "club" is used, but of a single club officer who has his best interests in mind. (most members don't bother going to the meetings anymore as they are only there for the "placebo" effect) Something you as PIC should be aware of. Some very nice folks in the regular ranks there, but it certainly is not all roses when it comes down to maintenance and leadership.

Mike
 
Last edited:
Vote with your feet. If you don't like what you see, move on. I flew in a beautiful C-172s with a/c for $150 an hour. Aces High in LGB.

http://aceshighaviation.com/fleet

The problem I have is that the same guy that hates rentals sometimes is the biggest abuser.
 
wabower said:
How many of those daily trips would have been necessary if he had been flying it himself?
Click to expand...


For an 75 plus year old guy, he got around pretty good....maybe this was part of his routine.

BTW..he owned a 210 for his own plane... I hope to be able to still fly at that age...
 
socalpilot said:
Bob, just be aware that there is a $3500 buy in, yes, you are on the tach not the hobbs, but your monthly fee of $140 will cancel those savings. As with most clubs, you can will be assessed hundreds of dollars for any surprise issues. You are on the hook for this as a partial owner. This happened when their newly purchased Diamond had a catastrophic engine failure, (on the runup at CMA, not in the air) The purchases and maintenance decisions made in the club are NOT yours, although the term "club" is used, but of a single club officer who has his best interests in mind. (most members don't bother going to the meetings anymore as they are only there for the "placebo" effect) Something you as PIC should be aware of. Some very nice folks in the regular ranks there, but it certainly is not all roses when it comes down to maintenance and leadership.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike..thanks for the insight..

What was the engine issue
 
For what it's worth, I would pay up to $35 / hour more for a nice 172 or 182 versus the same plane with poor cosmetics. Friends and family are scared enough as it is. If I walk them up to a plane that looks like crap, with cracks, brittle old plastic, peeling paint, and bad seats, they conclude - right or wrong - that the plane is dangerous.

So in addition to mattering to me, it matters even more to people I'm trying to introduce to flying.

Today I found a plane on the rental line who's owner really cares. He fixes even the little stuff. And yes, it costs more. But I'll now be his regular customer.
 
Yes, you're obsessing. Does the plane fly? Are the wings going to come off? If not, its fine.

Having a broken trim is not a sign of poor maintenance, its a sign of age.

A seat collapsing is a sign that it needs to be replaced, not that the plane is not airworthy.
 
SkyHog said:
Yes, you're obsessing. Does the plane fly? Are the wings going to come off? If not, its fine.

Having a broken trim is not a sign of poor maintenance, its a sign of age.

A seat collapsing is a sign that it needs to be replaced, not that the plane is not airworthy.
Click to expand...

NOSSIR :no: :no: :no: :no: a seat collapsing is a sign of **** poor maintenance and if it's a rental, I'm not going back and if it's my plane, my mechanic is fired. That will KILL you fast.
 
It's amazing that anybody in that age group still thinks they can fly an airplane, but some of them still do so on a regular basis. A couple of them even flew a 2,500 mile XC with a fair amount of night and IFR in the mix.

Ventucky Red said:
For an 75 plus year old guy, he got around pretty good....maybe this was part of his routine.

BTW..he owned a 210 for his own plane... I hope to be able to still fly at that age...
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
It's amazing that anybody in that age group still thinks they can fly an airplane, but some of them still do so on a regular basis. A couple of them even flew a 2,500 mile XC with a fair amount of night and IFR in the mix.
Click to expand...


One of my favorite CFI's is 74, retired AF, retired TWA/AA. He just last year decided the 2nd class medical wasn't worth the hassle, and so he reverted to the 3rd class. He still instructs, but he gave up his commercial flying finally. I would fall asleep with him at the controls any day..
 
When was the last time your mechanic checked the internal seat structure on your plane? Can it be seen during a normal inspection? Is such an inspection required in the MM?
bartmc said:
NOSSIR :no: :no: :no: :no: a seat collapsing is a sign of **** poor maintenance and if it's a rental, I'm not going back and if it's my plane, my mechanic is fired. That will KILL you fast.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
When was the last time your mechanic checked the internal seat structure on your plane? Can it be seen during a normal inspection? Is such an inspection required in the MM?
Click to expand...


I judge a rental by the speed at which things I write up get resolved. A&P's generally don't fly the damn thing, and so if people report it timely I like to see it resolved in a timely fashion...

And none of that "you don't need that to fly" crap either.
 
wabower said:
When was the last time your mechanic checked the internal seat structure on your plane? Can it be seen during a normal inspection? Is such an inspection required in the MM?
Click to expand...

About 3 months ago. Annual's due in June. That was the 2nd time this year it's been checked. I give it a good looking over when I clean the plane every month or so. It's also a check list item to make sure the seat is locked.
 
Last edited:
Could he see the entire structure including all areas of possible failure, including all of the framework that's covered by the upholstery?


bartmc said:
About 3 months ago. Annual's due in June.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Could he see the entire structure including all areas of possible failure, including all of the framework that's covered by the upholstery?
Click to expand...

Nope but the most obvious and critical failure point (where the back meets the bottom) can be inspected in about 15 seconds.
 
Would it surprise you to know that fat boys can break them in other places?
bartmc said:
Nope but the most obvious and critical failure point (where the back meets the bottom) can be inspected in about 15 seconds.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Would it surprise you to know that fat boys can break them in other places?
Click to expand...

My plane is placarded against that.

no-fat-chicks-jpeg.jpg
 
To build most flying hours per dollar, find rental that does not care about cosmetics or any other types of frills in staff or buildings and reflects that in lower aircraft rental rates.

Inspect all aircraft logs, interview all maintenance guys, review all accident history, interview insurance carriers, interview other renter pilots there, and then decide if it is where you want to fly out of.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
To build most flying hours per dollar, find rental that does not care about cosmetics or any other types of frills in staff or buildings and reflects that in lower aircraft rental rates.
Click to expand...

That may be true and I am sure that some folks pick their restaurants on that basis also. You know, greasy spoons. Personally, I like a good greasy spoon restaurant and I do not mind if a 40-year old or a 70-year old airplane looks its age but not everyone is like that. I know many people that are turned off by that sort of thing.

And there are cosmetics and then there are cosmetics. I do draw the line at total dogs.

Some here took issue with my naming "in-op" as a concern. Yes, I don't have a problem with an ADF being in-op but if the OP did not specify what was in-op and I was taking it in context with the fact that it was not the only maintenance issue. The seats are a big one in that that is a known issue with Cessnas and covered by an AD, I believe. I left one flight school because the Arrow I was starting to use for training did not have a working tc and the owner refused to fix it. I wanted to combine my IR with some complex time. All the airplanes there were in mediocre to poor shape cosmetically and I would not want to take someone up in their 152 - it was nasty.
 
zaitcev said:
This is not quite the truth. Rentals in CA (or at least in NorCal) are consistently cheaper than elsewhere or at least competitive -- realistically speaking. Of course when this topic is brought up at PoA, folks fetch all sorts of secret rental deals, which magically disappear as soon as I visit the area.
Click to expand...
I don't buy it. When I've checked, our $250k house is 600+ in CA. A lot more in many locations. Kids' expenses (pariochal school, dance lessons, summer camps, etc) are also much higher. Add it all up and you have a significant zip code penalty to overcome before you can start to worry about whether the plane rents for $80 or 90.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
To build most flying hours per dollar, find rental that does not care about cosmetics or any other types of frills in staff or buildings and reflects that in lower aircraft rental rates.

Inspect all aircraft logs, interview all maintenance guys, review all accident history, interview insurance carriers, interview other renter pilots there, and then decide if it is where you want to fly out of.
Click to expand...

:rofl: And maybe a stool sample as well?
 
Dave,

Good points...you gave me an insight. You said, "To build most flying hours per dollar". You are right for someone who has that goal.

That's not my goal. My goal is to enjoy flying. For me, that means an airplane that's well maintained in every respect and looks it too. It's a plane that I feel good about when I take up a friend who's never been flying before. It's a plane I can enjoy waxing on the weekend, just like I do my vintage cars.

So at the end of the day, this is partly about goals. I want to have fun, to experience the romance of flying with family and friends. Most rental planes scare the heck out of flying newbies, and sap any enthusiasm they might have.

As a side note, I found a rental plane that fits the bill. I'm going to use it while I search for my own plane.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top