Rematch #427,395: Twins vs. Singles as Personal Airliner

weilke said:
If true off-road is the plan, the Kodiak looks like a lot of capability.
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Very true. It would be a definite toss-up between the Kodiak and a 208 if I were ever in the market for that sort of thing. I can't see why I would be though but wants/needs do change.
 
Weilke - right on.

Hey, if I won 50 mil, the pull of that 104 could turn me to the darkside of conspicuous consumption.
Wow, what a machine.
Too damned dangerous, though. (sigh)
 
SteveinIndy said:
I don't know if it was an AD, but it came out of the series of icing crashes in the 208. The Canadians investigated the hell out of a couple of them.

Regarding TKS, I would rather have either a heated system or boots. I can't put my finger on it but something about TKS just leaves me uneasy.
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Boot or hot wings are de-ice systems. TKS is an anti-ice system that requires the pilot to activate it before rather than after ice forms. Deice systems don't pee on the hangar floor after the plane is parked.
 
J3 Driver said:
For me it would be either a CE-441 with -10s. (300 knots on 340 PPH at altitude.) Or a King Air 350. Speeds the same but you're going to burn more. But the thing will haul whatever you can cram into it. The one I'm currently flying is fill the tanks and seats and Gina's still have some useful load left over. The. You can operate it out of 3500 feet all day long as well. It's an airplane that does a lot if things really well.
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I would love a 350i. Can they really do 300kts at cruise?
 
spiderweb said:
I would love a 350i. Can they really do 300kts at cruise?
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In our 350 at work I see 290-305 depending in temp. I love that bird very much. She flies just like a Baron only bigger and faster. The new one are nicer because they have dual temp zones. The front and back can now set their own temps. In ours if you comfortable up front the backs cold and if the backs comfortable the fronts roasting.
 
You guys are insane. I'd get a cubcrafters on amphibs and whatever the latest greatest self launching sailplane is. Buy a house in Utah or Idaho and play with my flying machines or sit around looking at the mountains. I would never willingly slog around the world flying myself, to me that would be a boring chore. When winter starts to get a little long Id just buy a plane ticket, yeah commercial sucks but when you are going to be at your destination for a month without a schedule who cares?
 
J3 Driver said:
In our 350 at work I see 290-305 depending in temp. I love that bird very much. She flies just like a Baron only bigger and faster. The new one are nicer because they have dual temp zones. The front and back can now set their own temps. In ours if you comfortable up front the backs cold and if the backs comfortable the fronts roasting.
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That's plenty fast for the trips I travel. It might be 50 kts slower than a Citation II, but as others have stated, who cares about 20 minutes time savings, if you can land at an airport closer to your actual destination?
 
If you want to see that plan in action next month, stop by the AA terminal at DFW on 23 Jan.

ClimbnSink said:
You guys are insane. I'd get a cubcrafters on amphibs and whatever the latest greatest self launching sailplane is. Buy a house in Utah or Idaho and play with my flying machines or sit around looking at the mountains. I would never willingly slog around the world flying myself, to me that would be a boring chore. When winter starts to get a little long Id just buy a plane ticket, yeah commercial sucks but when you are going to be at your destination for a month without a schedule who cares?
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You guys are insane. I'd get a cubcrafters on amphibs and whatever the latest greatest self launching sailplane is. Buy a house in Utah or Idaho and play with my flying machines or sit around looking at the mountains. I would never willingly slog around the world flying myself, to me that would be a boring chore. When winter starts to get a little long Id just buy a plane ticket, yeah commercial sucks but when you are going to be at your destination for a month without a schedule who cares?
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To each and to their own. I would go nuts if limited to a Cub and a glider. Low and slow is nice from time to time, but I have little need for STOL and no absolute need for amphibian operation and the other benefits of something like the Cub. I think a lot of the bush pilot folks are insane but it's mainly because those sorts of strokes are for different sorts of folks.
 
King Air 200. Done. :)
 
Inverted said:
This is such a stupid topic if you are talking about winning 50 million dollars. Why would a 208 even be on that list?
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It is often the case, that when something is called stupid, it isn't.

As MassPilot pointed out, lottery winners usually take the lump-sum payout and then squander the proceeds, becoming broke in a matter of years. That's what I'd call stupid, but it's how people really are.

What should they do instead? If they have a lump sum and wish to live on it indefinitely, the most that that an early retiree can draw down is about 4% each year, if they want to avoid risk of bankruptcy before death. Even that has some risk, and advisers say that a drawdown of 3% is safer. That's just a fact of personal finance. If you win $50 million, and you keep $30 million after tax, you'll have an annual income of $1.2 million if you spend at the more daring 4% rate. A depreciating asset like an airplane should be purchased from that annual income, if you are a prudent investor. So I'd say that a new plane with an initial outlay of $2 million is about as expensive as the prudent retiree should dare, with a fluctuating income of about $1.2 million. And it so happens that a new Cessna 208 costs $2.0 million.

Not so stupid, after all.
 
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The theoretical 3-4% withdrawal rate has been disproven numerous times. Spending habits change with age and circumstances. Check Scott Burns and others who have researched the subject.

NoHeat said:
It is often the case, that when something is called stupid, it isn't.

As MassPilot pointed out, lottery winners usually take the lump-sum payout and then squander the proceeds, becoming broke in a matter of years. That's what I'd call stupid, but it's how people really are.

What should they do instead? If they have a lump sum and wish to live on it indefinitely, the most that that an early retiree can draw down is about 4% each year, if they want to avoid risk of bankruptcy before death. Even that has some risk, and advisers say that a drawdown of 3% is safer. That's just a fact of personal finance. If you win $50 million, and you keep $30 million after tax, you'll have an annual income of $1.2 million if you spend at the more daring 4% rate. A depreciating asset like an airplane should be purchased from that annual income, if you are a prudent investor. So I'd say that a new plane with an initial outlay of $2 million is about as expensive as the prudent retiree should dare, with a fluctuating income of about $1.2 million. And it so happens that a new Cessna 208 costs $2.0 million.

Not so stupid, after all.
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If I have $30m in the bank, then I really don't care how long it takes to get anywhere.
The 208 is a remarkably versatile airplane, easier to fly, easier to learn, and probably a lot cheaper and easier to insure (slower, fixed gear, etc).
You can argue that it'll take more hours to get places, so there's some additional expense, but the 208 will do whatever I want. And get into small strips in the Bahamas, and at the house with a gravel strip that I would build on the Texas barrier islands.
 
SteveinIndy said:
To each and to their own. I would go nuts if limited to a Cub and a glider. Low and slow is nice from time to time, but I have little need for STOL and no absolute need for amphibian operation and the other benefits of something like the Cub. I think a lot of the bush pilot folks are insane but it's mainly because those sorts of strokes are for different sorts of folks.
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Thats just it, with 50 million bucks you don't need anything that flies. I want to amuse myself, best done on floats and in sailplanes, if you want to play airline pilot, great but need is not part of the answer.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Thats just it, with 50 million bucks you don't need anything that flies. I want to amuse myself, best done on floats and in sailplanes, if you want to play airline pilot, great but need is not part of the answer.
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Who actually NEEDs to own anything that flies, minus for business?
 
ClimbnSink said:
Thats just it, with 50 million bucks you don't need anything that flies. I want to amuse myself, best done on floats and in sailplanes, if you want to play airline pilot, great but need is not part of the answer.
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I don't wish to play airline pilot because of the limitations on where you can fly but I also grew tired of puttering around back when I was in ultralights. You seem to "need" floats and sailplanes to amuse yourself as I need something faster to amuse myself. To each and to their own my friend. :D

Who actually NEEDs to own anything that flies, minus for business?
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Very true. I was speaking of the "need" in the sense of "that's what it takes to fit my interests" not a Maslow-style "hierarchy of needs" sense. I enjoy minimizing the amount of time spent in cruise flight so I feel a need to do so just as ClimbnSink enjoys maximizing the number of lakes he has landed upon. Does that make more sense?
 
NoHeat said:
It is often the case, that when something is called stupid, it isn't.

As MassPilot pointed out, lottery winners usually take the lump-sum payout and then squander the proceeds, becoming broke in a matter of years. That's what I'd call stupid, but it's how people really are.

What should they do instead? If they have a lump sum and wish to live on it indefinitely, the most that that an early retiree can draw down is about 4% each year, if they want to avoid risk of bankruptcy before death. Even that has some risk, and advisers say that a drawdown of 3% is safer. That's just a fact of personal finance. If you win $50 million, and you keep $30 million after tax, you'll have an annual income of $1.2 million if you spend at the more daring 4% rate. A depreciating asset like an airplane should be purchased from that annual income, if you are a prudent investor. So I'd say that a new plane with an initial outlay of $2 million is about as expensive as the prudent retiree should dare, with a fluctuating income of about $1.2 million. And it so happens that a new Cessna 208 costs $2.0 million.

Not so stupid, after all.
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Add to all of that, that I do NOT plan to quit my day job!
 
If we are talking personal airliner my vote is also for the King Air 200. If we are talking fun I would go for Husky, Carbon Cub, Super D etc.
 
spiderweb said:
Thanks! I'm kind of leaning that way . . . assuming my $50 mil becomes reality!
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If we had that level of money, I think a KA200 would be on the short list. An MU-2 would be a more efficient consideration since we technically don't need the size of the KA200, but since our finances wouldn't support either, it's a moot point.
 
After several years of KA-200 ownership I can testify that operating one of them feels like you need to have won the lottery in order to fly it. Fuel in major airports, including resort areas, is north of $6/gal, which equates to ~$650/hr for long trips and ~$800/hr for short trips. We budgeted $5k/mo for MX and usually spent all of it over the year.

On numerous occasions I decided to "damn the torpedoes" and fly it to California for the annual golf trip, at least until I did the math. Fuel cost for the round trip from Dallas to Palm Springs would use up most of a five-thousand dollar bill, and then I'd need to store it for a month or pay somebody to fly it home and then come back to get us. Even with my sorry-ass friends chipping in for part of the cost, using the plane was still a big chunk of dough.

Then I'd check my FF account at American and find I could fly free, or worst case fly the round trip for the same cost as .5 hours fuel cost for the B-200. The downside was waiting around in the PSP bag area for the golf bag to show up, the upside was that I could stand up and walk to the whizzer in the MD-80.

Bottom line is that the B-200 didn't ever make the trip. If we had been hauling 6-8 people it might have made sense, but even then it would have been iffy.


Everskyward said:
If we are talking personal airliner my vote is also for the King Air 200. If we are talking fun I would go for Husky, Carbon Cub, Super D etc.
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wabower said:
After several years of KA-200 ownership I can testify that operating one of them feels like you need to have won the lottery in order to fly it. Fuel in major airports, including resort areas, is north of $6/gal, which equates to ~$650/hr for long trips and ~$800/hr for short trips. We budgeted $5k/mo for MX and usually spent all of it over the year.

On numerous occasions I decided to "damn the torpedoes" and fly it to California for the annual golf trip, at least until I did the math. Fuel cost for the round trip from Dallas to Palm Springs would use up most of a five-thousand dollar bill, and then I'd need to store it for a month or pay somebody to fly it home and then come back to get us. Even with my sorry-ass friends chipping in for part of the cost, using the plane was still a big chunk of dough.

Then I'd check my FF account at American and find I could fly free, or worst case fly the round trip for the same cost as .5 hours fuel cost for the B-200. The downside was waiting around in the PSP bag area for the golf bag to show up, the upside was that I could stand up and walk to the whizzer in the MD-80.

Bottom line is that the B-200 didn't ever make the trip. If we had been hauling 6-8 people it might have made sense, but even then it would have been iffy.
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I was thinking about a personal airliner for Ben, not myself. I don't have any particular desire for a personal airliner at all. If I ever own an airplane it will just be for fun. People ask why I don't have an airplane to commute back and forth to see my mom in San Francisco. Southwest (or Frontier, or United) will take me for less than $500 even for a last minute round trip ticket. Plus I can sleep on the way.
 
I find that sleeping enroute is roughly the same using either conveyance. Just gotta turn up the volume knob on the Comm.
Everskyward said:
I was thinking about a personal airliner for Ben, not myself. I don't have any particular desire for a personal airliner at all. If I ever own an airplane it will just be for fun. People ask why I don't have an airplane to commute back and forth to see my mom in San Francisco. Southwest (or Frontier, or United) will take me for less than $500 even for a last minute round trip ticket. Plus I can sleep on the way.
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wabower said:
After several years of KA-200 ownership I can testify that operating one of them feels like you need to have won the lottery in order to fly it. Fuel in major airports, including resort areas, is north of $6/gal, which equates to ~$650/hr for long trips and ~$800/hr for short trips. We budgeted $5k/mo for MX and usually spent all of it over the year.

On numerous occasions I decided to "damn the torpedoes" and fly it to California for the annual golf trip, at least until I did the math. Fuel cost for the round trip from Dallas to Palm Springs would use up most of a five-thousand dollar bill, and then I'd need to store it for a month or pay somebody to fly it home and then come back to get us. Even with my sorry-ass friends chipping in for part of the cost, using the plane was still a big chunk of dough.

Then I'd check my FF account at American and find I could fly free, or worst case fly the round trip for the same cost as .5 hours fuel cost for the B-200. The downside was waiting around in the PSP bag area for the golf bag to show up, the upside was that I could stand up and walk to the whizzer in the MD-80.

Bottom line is that the B-200 didn't ever make the trip. If we had been hauling 6-8 people it might have made sense, but even then it would have been iffy.
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Great story. We have an oil woman friend that owned a 200. I would rather have her production than ANY lottery win. That said she decided that it just wasn't worth it to own the 200 given the expenses. Instead she pays full price for last minute first class tickets and talks about what a bargain they are.
 
Everskyward said:
I was thinking about a personal airliner for Ben, not myself. I don't have any particular desire for a personal airliner at all. If I ever own an airplane it will just be for fun. People ask why I don't have an airplane to commute back and forth to see my mom in San Francisco. Southwest (or Frontier, or United) will take me for less than $500 even for a last minute round trip ticket. Plus I can sleep on the way.
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The route you'd have to fly is also rather treacherous, well-served by commercial, and would require something substantial in order to do reliably with any measure of safety. If you were talking about, two locations of a similar distance with poor or no commercial service and in the flatlands in the middle of the country, you might reevaluate.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The route you'd have to fly is also rather treacherous, well-served by commercial, and would require something substantial in order to do reliably with any measure of safety. If you were talking about, two locations of a similar distance with poor or no commercial service and in the flatlands in the middle of the country, you might reevaluate.
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While that may be true I can't see myself living in a remote location in the flatlands. I'm more of a city mouse.
 
Maybe it's time for a change. You'd be big news in Abilene.
Everskyward said:
While that may be true I can't see myself living in a remote location in the flatlands. I'm more of a city mouse.
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Everskyward said:
While that may be true I can't see myself living in a remote location in the flatlands. I'm more of a city mouse.
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True, just making the point for a theoretical you and a theoretical mom in such conditions. :)
 
Alexb2000 said:
Great story. We have an oil woman friend that owned a 200. I would rather have her production than ANY lottery win. That said she decided that it just wasn't worth it to own the 200 given the expenses. Instead she pays full price for last minute first class tickets and talks about what a bargain they are.
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People moan about how terrible travel on the ATD is yet ignore the fact that for money you can get business class tickets, TSA-pre/global access (no line, magnetometer only, keep your shoes on) and club access. While I don't pay for business class, when I get it through upgrades it really makes a difference.
 
A couple of weeks ago, I had the chance to fly a MU-2B-25.
I want one. I really, REALLY want one.
It won't ever happen, but a guy can dream, right?

Glenn
 
Shepherd said:
A couple of weeks ago, I had the chance to fly a MU-2B-25.
I want one. I really, REALLY want one.
It won't ever happen, but a guy can dream, right?

Glenn
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I keep joking that I am 15 partners short of a TBM-700 :D (or maybe 5 partners short of a Mu2).
 
weilke said:
I keep joking that I am 15 partners short of a TBM-700 :D (or maybe 5 partners short of a Mu2).
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The MU-2 is a Seirra Hotel kick a$$ airplane. I can see why so many people have gotten in trouble with it. Wow! Can it move! But it will slow right down to land.

Glenn
 
Many people have the same reaction, but when time comes to purchase they buy something else.
Shepherd said:
A couple of weeks ago, I had the chance to fly a MU-2B-25.
I want one. I really, REALLY want one.
It won't ever happen, but a guy can dream, right?

Glenn
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