Remanufactured questions

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Jason608

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Jason608
Hi -
I'm trying to understand the overhaul times of the IO-550N 310 SR22 engine. Continental recommends an overhaul at 2,000 hrs. If the engine (looking to purchase) has 560 hours since major overhaul, should I expect 2,000 hours of life? Another way to look at it is, when purchasing, is 560 since overhaul worth some $30k vs an engine 125 hours away from 2,000?

I do understand an engine with 400 SNEW could require an overhaul and one with 2,500 may not need an overhaul.
 
Jason608 said:
Hi -
I'm trying to understand the overhaul times of the IO-550N 310 SR22 engine. Continental recommends an overhaul at 2,000 hrs. If the engine (looking to purchase) has 560 hours since major overhaul, should I expect 2,000 hours of life? Another way to look at it is, when purchasing, is 560 since overhaul worth some $30k vs an engine 125 hours away from 2,000?

I do understand an engine with 400 SNEW could require an overhaul and one with 2,500 may not need an overhaul.
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To start with, there is no such thing as a re-manufactured engine.

read FAR 43.2

think of it as you are buying hours. Do you want to pay for 2000 and get 200
 
So, do we expect to get 2,000 hours out of a rebuilt to factory specs engine?
 
Jason608 said:
So, do we expect to get 2,000 hours out of a rebuilt to factory specs engine?
Click to expand...

Just for fun, go on Controller and see if you can find any IO-550's with anywhere near 2,000 hours. I know this isn't scientific, but it people were getting 2,000 hours I think you'd see planes with 2,000+ hours on them. Maybe they're there, but I've never seen them.
 
Tom-D said:
To start with, there is no such thing as a re-manufactured engine.

read FAR 43.2

think of it as you are buying hours. Do you want to pay for 2000 and get 200
Click to expand...

If you only fly 50 hours a year, expecting 40 years out of your high dollar engine may not be a great investment.

I have flown a 182RG with the O-540 through 4 engines. 2 were the least expensive field overhaul, one was a factory zero time, one was a factory overhaul. The only engine not making TBO was most expensive.
 
Jason608 said:
So, do we expect to get 2,000 hours out of a rebuilt to factory specs engine?
Click to expand...
Ya just keep repairing it, it will last for ever, The data tag never wears out.
 
Tom-D said:
To start with, there is no such thing as a re-manufactured engine.

read FAR 43.2

think of it as you are buying hours. Do you want to pay for 2000 and get 200
Click to expand...

As defined by the far's you are correct. However, what is generally called a re-manufactured engine is a factory rebuilt. As I'm sure you well know, but some do not, is that the factory is the only one that can rebuild one and issue new log books and call it a zero time engine. Everyone else that rebuild one Carrys the logs forward and it becomes total time xxx and yyy smoh.
 
unsafervguy said:
As defined by the far's you are correct. However, what is generally called a re-manufactured engine is a factory rebuilt. As I'm sure you well know, but some do not, is that the factory is the only one that can rebuild one and issue new log books and call it a zero time engine. Everyone else that rebuild one Carrys the logs forward and it becomes total time xxx and yyy smoh.
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Not any more, there is a AC on engine terms that shows what the FAA uses.

Re-manufactured was a term that the advertising types at the manufacture like to use, but you won't see it anymore. Rebuilt is the proper term. Any Properly authorized mechanic or facility can rebuild any engine, but you are correct only the manufacturer or the authorized representative can "0" time the logs.
But who would want one of these engines knowing every part could be at minimum size, and still meet factory authorized sizes.
Buy a factory overhauled engine, never count on getting another overhaul on it.
 
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Ben Diss said:
Just for fun, go on Controller and see if you can find any IO-550's with anywhere near 2,000 hours. I know this isn't scientific, but it people were getting 2,000 hours I think you'd see planes with 2,000+ hours on them. Maybe they're there, but I've never seen them.
Click to expand...

I know at least two people who have gone past 3000 hours before overhaul in naturally aspirated SR22s. On the turbo planes, most don't reach 2000 and many need cylinders around 1000-1200 hrs. But the rest is random luck (quality of the metallurgy and assembly), good operating practices (especially with turbo IO550s, they need to be cared for and operated according to the book) and quality maintenance.

So, in short... It depends. Based on 10+ years of reading COPA and knowing 50+ Cirrus owners quite well, it seems NA engines tend to go to 2000 or a bit beyond, turbo engines are more variable and generally go until 1200-1600 hours. Many do require a few cylinders along the way. But there is a lot of randomness and infant mortality (early failures) do happen as well. Continental isn't exactly like modern day Toyota in terms of engine reliability.
 
Oh and my personal experience across two SR22s I have owned is that I took my first NA plane from about 200TT to 1800TT and my current plane’s turbo engine from 0 to about 900 now and I still haven’t done any engine work (no overhauls or cylinders or anything to the engine itself).
 
Tom-D said:
Not any more, there is a AC on engine terms that shows what the FAA uses.

Re-manufactured was a term that the advertising types at the manufacture like to use, but you won't see it anymore. Rebuilt is the proper term. Any Properly authorized mechanic or facility can rebuild any engine, but you are correct only the manufacturer or the authorized representative can "0" time the logs.
But who would want one of these engines knowing every part could be at minimum size, and still meet factory authorized sizes.
Buy a factory overhauled engine, never count on getting another overhaul on it.
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your right, lycoming uses the terms Re-built and overhauled.

so you are saying that lycoming re-builds to field limits? if so, think again.

https://www.lycoming.com/services/rebuilt-engines

that's the difference between a lycoming re-built zero time engine and a lycoming overhauled engine. re-mans are to factory new tolerances and overhauled engines are to "tolerances above field requirements " what ever that is.

your concern could be true with any re-builder, as long as the part meets tolerances, then its good to go.
do you use new or field tolerances when you overhaul a customers engine? something to ask when shopping for an overhauler.
 
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There is no such term, "field limits" Read the overhaul manual for the engine you are rebuilding see what limits are allowed.
What the factory does, and what they are allowed to do are two different subjects.

And what the advertisements say is yet a different thing.
 
When you read the log book return to service entry and it says, " This engine meets FAR 43.2 as rebuilt " what do you think it means?
 
Tom-D said:
There is no such term, "field limits" Read the overhaul manual for the engine you are rebuilding see what limits are allowed.
What the factory does, and what they are allowed to do are two different subjects.

And what the advertisements say is yet a different thing.
Click to expand...
since you want to be like you normally are here are specifics.
by the way, the "field requirments" part is a direct quote from lycomings web page.

1. lycoming uses the term service limits.
2. it is legal to overhaul an engine and call it overhauled IAW the FARS with every part in the engine at the min service limit of the part.
3. lycoming lists in the table of limits the min and max dimensions of the part for manufacture and service limits.
4. some parts the service limits are less than the manufacture limits example: intake valve limits all engines: manufacture limits .4022/.4033 service limits: .4010
5. you could overhaul an engine with every intake valve at .4010 and it is a legal overhaul. will those valves make it through another overhaul? probably not.
6. lycoming only uses parts that meet the manufacture limits in its Re-built engines. thats what they charge more for and thats why the FAA allows them to issue new log books and call them zero time engines because all parts meet new dimensional specs. can a field shop use the same specs? yes and the good ones do. but they cannot issue new logs and call it a zero time engine and in a lot of cases its a better engine than the lycoming because of the parts matching and balancing they do.

i do not have any clue what limits you use when you overhaul an engine, but if you use service limits the customer could be getting that engine that will not go another overhaul just as you claim a factory reman would not.
 
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unsafervguy said:
since you want to be like you normally are here are specifics.
by the way, the "field requirments" part is a direct quote from lycomings web page.

1. lycoming uses the term service limits.

i do not have any clue what limits you use when you overhaul an engine,
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That is the proper term. unlike what you said.
And you probably never will.

My customers get what they pay for, and what is legal.
If my customer wants to used their own reground crank, cam, lifters, I'm good with that, If they elect to use a new crank, cam, lifters, More better.
Cylinders are another elective, Last rebuilt cylinders I used Charley Malot did them. Looked like new ran great still in service.
You want a service limits overhaul go to some one else. I don't build to a minimum standard. that is why the engine on my bench is way over due, hold up for 4 small oil pump bolts, they should be here Monday.
 
unsafervguy said:
6. lycoming only uses parts that meet the manufacture limits in its Re-built engines. thats what they charge more for and thats why the FAA allows them to issue new log books
Click to expand...

The FAA allows all engine manufactures to issue a new zero time log book simply because that is what the regulations say. Not because of anything the manufacturer does.
 
All facilities that overhaul engines other than the original manufacturer, are considered FIELD activities / facilities, Those of us A&Ps who do overhaul engines are held to a standard written in FAR 43.2 & 43.13, and the rest of that FAR in as far as our record entries, and several other requirements in 43.

The Certified repair station are bound by their FAA certified instructions for repairs.

The manufacturers are not held to those same standards, They have a completely different set of rules given in the production certificate. They can basically change the engine blue print at will.
 
The engine I have on the build stand now is an owner supervised rebuild to new standards.
It has a reworked case by crankcase services, - I have a 8103-3
It has a new cam, 12 new lifter bodies and 12 new hydraulic units, cups and keepers, 6 reworked rods,(8103-3) and a reground .010" under crank,(8103-3) fitted with new main and rod bearings, 2 new timing gears, and 6 new superior cylinders, a new oil pump, and all new common hardware, including new cylinder hold down nuts, and case thru bolts.
It will be mounted on an engine mount freshly cleaned and refinished, using 4 new mount pads.
and equipped with Slick Mags and harnesses that were resently overhauled, a new light weight push button starter, and Jasco 60 AMP alternator.

Should run well for a long time
 
Tom-D said:
That is the proper term. unlike what you said.
And you probably never will.

My customers get what they pay for, and what is legal.
If my customer wants to used their own reground crank, cam, lifters, I'm good with that, If they elect to use a new crank, cam, lifters, More better.
Cylinders are another elective, Last rebuilt cylinders I used Charley Malot did them. Looked like new ran great still in service.
You want a service limits overhaul go to some one else. I don't build to a minimum standard. that is why the engine on my bench is way over due, hold up for 4 small oil pump bolts, they should be here Monday.
Click to expand...

you are talking both sides again, i should not be surprised as you are famous for that. you say, your good with that if a person wants to use a crank that is reground to service limits, but then you say you do not do service limit overhauls? which is it. I have no problem either way as long as the customer knows what they are getting and paying for.
thats the point i was making. lycoming plainly states that their re-man engines are to NEW LIMITS, people are willing to pay for that. a lot of good shops also work to that standard. great, but there are a lot of places out there selling "overhauls" that will work to service limits, replace only what they have to, and generally do a crappy rebuild and sell it at a premium price. you implied in post 11 that the factory re-builds to service limits and that is flat out not true. a lycoming re-built is to new limits. thats why they have re-built and overhauled engines.
 
unsafervguy said:
you are talking both sides again, i should not be surprised as you are famous for that. you say, your good with that if a person wants to use a crank that is reground to service limits, but then you say you do not do service limit overhauls? which is it. I have no problem either way as long as the customer knows what they are getting and paying for.
Click to expand...
I don't believe you understand what service limits means.
Lets not talk about what Lycoming does, that wasn't the subject.
Regrinding cranks and cams are done on two types of paper work.
Our Overhaul manual states that our cranks are a certain size new +or- .001" and can have a service limit .004" smaller than that. that is to be used as is with no regrind.
So when I send a crank in to be reground the overhaul manual allows it to be ground .010 under. This can be done by the CRS under their FAA certified instruction on how it is to be done.
Now if it does not clean up at .010" Superior has a STC that allows the crank to go .020" under.
Knowing this, re-read FAR 43.2 to know what "REBUILT' Allows.
 
Key sentence in FAR 43.2

using either new parts or used parts that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved oversized or undersized dimensions.

Manufacturers can and do authorize their own over and under sizes. Manufacturer's can give you any size they like and call it rebuilt. I can't!

Know this, we do not grind to service limit, service limit is where we must, condemn the part when it is smaller than this, and get it repaired under a authorized repair method. Any part at or larger than service limit we can use as is.
 
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Here is why I Don't like service limits overhauls.
Let us say we have a crank that new measures 2.250'' +or- .001" on a main bearing journal.
WE have a Service limit of 2.246" (.004 under) the manual will say our desired oil clearance is .0015" to ,0025" ( that's 1 and a half to 2 and a half Thousands). How are we going to get that with a new standard bearing that will measure 2.252" ?
The old timers would simply place a shim behind the old bearing and go for it. Can you see us getting away with that today?
 
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Now getting back to what Lycoming does.
The reason Lycoming and others give you new parts like a crank and cam is, it is simply cheaper than the time spent on grinding and fitting bearings, plus the factor of the liability of getting the wrong size in an engine. They adhere to the KISS principal every thing is one size and out the door it goes.
 
Jason608 said:
Hi -
I'm trying to understand the overhaul times of the IO-550N 310 SR22 engine. Continental recommends an overhaul at 2,000 hrs. If the engine (looking to purchase) has 560 hours since major overhaul, should I expect 2,000 hours of life? Another way to look at it is, when purchasing, is 560 since overhaul worth some $30k vs an engine 125 hours away from 2,000?

I do understand an engine with 400 SNEW could require an overhaul and one with 2,500 may not need an overhaul.
Click to expand...
To answer your question, 560 since major, the time you will get out of that overhaul depends upon what was done during that overhaul. Every thing was replaced at that time, nothing was replaced at that time? or some where in between?
 
How much of a factor is how the engine was operated for the first 560hrs? In a modern aircraft like a SR22 is the information in how the engine was operated available from the avionics?
 
lowtimer said:
How much of a factor is how the engine was operated for the first 560hrs? In a modern aircraft like a SR22 is the information in how the engine was operated available from the avionics?
Click to expand...
As long as it had oil in it, not much, aircraft engines from reputable shops have about 10 hours on them as they come out of the box.
 
lowtimer said:
How much of a factor is how the engine was operated for the first 560hrs? In a modern aircraft like a SR22 is the information in how the engine was operated available from the avionics?
Click to expand...

Yes, but to varying levels and it requires interpretation. Varying levels means that the amount of data (number of variables) frequency of the logging (Avidyne logged every 6 seconds and Garmin perspective every second, iirc) as well as how much memory and where it is stored have varied. So a very early SR22 would have less data potentially than a G3 or later Perspective or Perspective +

But all I’ve just said is a little in the weeds. For most relatively recent Cirrus, the two biggest issues would be: a) is the data there? It has to be kept and not erased by the prior owner and B) do you or someone you trust know what to look for and have the time to review the engine data? It isn’t super hard but does benefit from informed review.
 
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