Regulatory Questions: Aeronca 7EC

Boundary Waters

Boundary Waters

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Luscombe Driver
A friend is looking at a mid 50's Champion built 7EC. This is a list of my (unanswered) questions pertaining to that particular airplane. FWIW, the potential seller has a copy of the official aircraft record CD from Oklahoma.

(1) It was built and originally certified with a C-90-12F, said engine as built has no starter or generator mount. The aircraft currently has an engine driven electrical system. Can this be removed-- the reason being a gain of 93 pounds useful load?

(2) Per the "official record" the aircraft is certificated at 1300 pounds gross. (In other words, below the 1320 pound Sport Rule upper limit.) But A-759 is worded "backwards" in my "totally unqualified to comment" opinion: "Maximum Weight 1450 lb.. 1300 lb. (If lower end landing gear oleo strut aaembly, Aeronca dwg. 3-433, is installed)."

I would assume (and we all know that makes an "ass" of "u" and "me") that the 7EC was initially built as a non-electric 1300 pound gross 785-ish pound empty airplane and was later "upgraded" (read: muddled up) with "junk" and had its gross weight increased to 1450 pounds to accommodate.

So IF there is no record (in the logs or CD) that THIS serial number aircraft ever had a different strut OR a GW increase (by STC or whatever) then it is still eligible for use by Sport Pilot credentialed pilots.

(3) Is that even important? The potential seller thinks that it is... And maybe that is all that matters since it goes towards the airplane's asking price.

Is a non-electric 7EC with GW of 1300 pounds and a useful load of 515 pounds objectively worth more in the future than an electric 7EC-- without radios and transponder because the potential seller is keeping them-- with a 1450 pound GW and a useful load of 572 pounds?

FWIW: The S7EC GW is 1478 pounds and a 7EC can be converted to a 7GC by installing a O-290. It weighs 100 pounds more than a C-90 so you just gain hp not load.
 
If there is no 337 or STC then that genny set needs to come off. Thats the book answer. Or you could pay for the 337/STC to make it legal. But then you would want to recoup that cost.

If there is no record in the logs then it didn't happen. Back in the day liability was nothing like it is today so an MX could do anything and who would know?

If you tried to sell the plane, a smart buyer would see these red flags and wonder what else is wrong, and could walk rather than putting up more cash to fix. I don't see how the weight thing can be resolved without proper w&b to get it legal. Someone is going to have to lie on paperwork.

Sport pilots are very few and far between. If i were a seller, unless the buyer was cash in hand and fully understood the known issues and was willing to deal with it post sale (aka not my problem) i would not try and shoehorn it into LSA catagory.
 
pfarber said:
If there is no 337 or STC then that genny set needs to come off. Thats the book answer.
Click to expand...

Playing A&P again? o_O

Apparently you didn't even bother to read the TCDS. :rolleyes:


pfarber said:
If you tried to sell the plane, a smart buyer would see these red flags and wonder what else is wrong, and could walk rather than putting up more cash to fix. I don't see how the weight thing can be resolved without proper w&b to get it legal. Someone is going to have to lie on paperwork.
Click to expand...

I get that you are a shadetree pretending to be an A&P. That's become obvious.

Try educating yourself before jumping in and making ridiculous assumptions.
 
Ain't no A&P, but...

No paperwork anywhere that documents an increase in the gross? Good to go for LSA, I would think. How much that would be worth in asking price, dunno. It is a bit harder to find a nice LSA qualified aircraft for us geezers who no longer have a medical.

Non-electric: One thing is that an aircraft without an electrical system is exempt from the transponder / ADS-B rules:
"91.215 (b) (3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed," (similar for ADS-B)
But, in this particular case, it had "subsequently been certified with such a system installed", so if you want to fly it in "rule" airspace, then at least a battery / transponder / ADS-B out would be required - assuming one wanted to follow the letter of the law.
Also, I would think that the geezer market is likely to want a starter. But that's just a guess.

Seller is keeping the transponder and radio? Sounds like a hard core cheap ass. I would wonder about ignored maintenance issues.
 
I'm not a mechanic, and didn't spend an hour studying it, but there are generators, voltage regulators, starters, and batteries on the TCDS. So a 337 would not be required to install THOSE particular items. Obviously it should be noted in the aircraft maintenance record-- but legally that can be written in grease pencil on the hanger wall. The TCDS lists weights and arms-- so while I would want an actual W&B performed, it could just be a mathematical exercise.

I guess that the question that I am trying to ask is: "With the Sport Pilot regulation an airplane CANNOT EVER have been certificated above 1320 pounds on wheels. (Obviously if this plane had EVER been on floats it would not qualify.) So does anyone know if the 7EC was ORIGINALLY certified at 1300 and that number was increased for those aircraft with a different strut assembly (logical) OR was it originally certified at 1450 pound and decreased to 1300 with a different assembly (sort of the way it reads)."

Also: "If an aircraft was built without an engine driven generator, but one was installed and an ADS-B installed, can that aircraft be restored to its original configuration without both?" (I see nothing that says that it can't but the regulations are not all that clear to me on every subject. And what the inspector thinks the regulations say is sometimes more important than what they actually say.)
 
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Have a friend that was in a similar situation with a Luscombe. He went to the FSDO and had a conversation with them trying to explain it all (I can't relate the entire story). He said in the midst of all the confusion over a few pounds and some years old logs that weren't quite clear, they slid the paperwork back across the table to him and said something akin to, "go enjoy flying your airplane." ;)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
"91.215 (b) (3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed," (similar for ADS-B)
But, in this particular case, it had "subsequently been certified with such a system installed", so if you want to fly it in "rule" airspace, then at least a battery / transponder / ADS-B out would be required - assuming one wanted to follow the letter of the law.
Click to expand...

Thank you. That was a documented and succinct answer!
 
Experience in the Fly Baby world says that most potential buyers want a starter...hand propping isn't that popular.

The TCDS for the C-90 (E-252) engine says the -12F model includes provision for a starter and a generator. Since the TCDS does allow them, I doubt if a "Supplemental Type Certificate" is really required. 337, I'm not so sure, but I think, since the engine *is* approved for them, this is a trivial point.

As far as Sport Pilots are concerned, while I think there is considerable interest in aircraft that meet the Light Sport definition, remember that the FAA is looking to change those rules. The gross weight may not be as important in a couple of years.

Finally, also realize that the seller pulling the transponder out of the airplane instantly restricts the airspace the aircraft can operate in. Not an issue if you live well outside Class B/Veil/Class C airspace, but it will be a hassle if you don't.

Ron Wanttaja
 
If the official record says 1300#, then it’s LSA compliant and a sport pilot can fly it. IMHO that makes it worth more, as you can always increase the gross weight with the appropriate mods (and STC), but once done it can’t ever be made LSA compliant again.

If there’s nothing in the aircraft records about the electrical system, then if it disappears and the W&B is “corrected” it never had one (legality aside). If that particular aircraft (regardless of what the TCDS lists as options) wasn’t “originally or subsequently certificated with an engine driven electrical system”, then it can be flown without transponder or ADS-B out in rule airspace which again adds value, but like the gross weight for LSA compliance, you can’t go back once the aircraft has the electrical system on record. If the electrical system is on record, you can still remove it to get a useful load increase, but it won’t make it xponder/ADS-B exempt.
 
For reference, here's the TCDS. Note that the C-90-12F is, indeed, configured for starter and generator.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Attachments

  • C90 - O-200 TCDS.pdf
    20.7 KB · Views: 14
Doc Holliday said:
Playing A&P again? o_O

Apparently you didn't even bother to read the TCDS. :rolleyes:




I get that you are a shadetree pretending to be an A&P. That's become obvious.

Try educating yourself before jumping in and making ridiculous assumptions.
Click to expand...

the 7EC TCDS list alternators? thats news. The C90-12F did have mounts for an alt, but that doesn't mean they used them (ie, they didn't for many AC).

I'd like to see what copy of the TCDS you have that lists these electrical components.
 
If the OP wants an airplane without a starter perhaps he should go buy one. Aeronca made lots.
 
wanttaja said:
For reference, here's the TCDS. Note that the C-90-12F is, indeed, configured for starter and generator.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...

That's not the question. The question is does the TCDS list such items.
 

Attachments

  • A-759 Rev 73.pdf
    99.1 KB · Views: 4
pfarber said:
the 7EC TCDS list alternators? thats news. The C90-12F did have mounts for an alt, but that doesn't mean they used them (ie, they didn't for many AC).

I'd like to see what copy of the TCDS you have that lists these electrical components.
Click to expand...

Go read the TCDS for the 7EC.


308. Generator or Alternator
( a ) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101890 and 118736
Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC
11 lb. (-28)
( b ) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Delco-Remy 1101898 and 1118704
Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC

Updating the generator to an alternator is not that difficult as you are trying to make it out to be. If you were an actual A&P you would know that.
 
pfarber said:
the 7EC TCDS list alternators? thats news. The C90-12F did have mounts for an alt, but that doesn't mean they used them (ie, they didn't for many AC).

I'd like to see what copy of the TCDS you have that lists these electrical components.
Click to expand...

A-759 (Rev 73) February 9, 2011...

307. Battery (a) Willard AW-12-25 (Model 7EC only) 24 lb. (+54) (b) Bowers BA-25, 12V Model 7EC only Models 7FC, 7JC Models 7GC, 7GCA (with cables), 7HC 24 lb. 24 lb. 28 lb. (+54) (-27) (+79.5) (c) Exide AC-60, 33 a. hr.; AC-66, 33 a. hr.; AC-78, 35 a. hr. 12V manifold vented Models 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7HC (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1066) Model 7KC (Champion dwg. 7-1149) 27 lb. (+79) (d) Exide AC-54 manifold vented, 12V 24 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1108) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC Model 7ECA with CMC O-200-A engine (instln. dwg. 7-1252) Model 7ECA and 7GCBC with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine (instln. dwg. 7-1300) 22 lb. 22 lb. 23 lb. (-27) (-27) (-26) (e) Exide AC-54 manifold vented, 12V 24 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 3-1191) (Model 7EC) 22 lb. (+54) (f) Exide AC-54 manifold vented, 12V 24 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1167) (Model 7GCBA) 22 lb. (-27) (g) Exide AC-66 manifold vented, 12V 33 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1293) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 33 lb. (+82) (h) Rebat S25, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1300) Models 7ECA, 7GCBC (with Lycoming engine O-235-C1) 23 lb. (-26) A-759 Page 28 of 37 (i) Rebat R35, 12V 35 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1469) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 33 lb. (+82) (j) Gill 6GCAB-11, 12V 35 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1509) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 33 lb. (+82) (k) Gill 6-GCAB-9, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1300) Models 7ECA, 7GCBC with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine 23 lb. (-26) (l) Exide AC-78, 12V 35 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1545) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 33 lb. (+82) (m) Sonotone CA-24A, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1578) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 30 lb. (+82) (n) Rebat S25M, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1588) Model 7ACA 21 lb. (+55) (o) Rebat R35, 12V 35 a. hr. with battery box (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1599) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 35 lb. (+82) (p) Gill PS6-11, 12V 35 a. hr. with battery box (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1599) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 35 lb. (+82) (q) Gill PS6-9, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1300) Models 7ECA, 7GCBC (with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine) 23 lb. (-26) (r) Rebat S25, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1530) Model 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-K2C engine) 23 lb. (-26) (s) Gill PS6-9, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1530) Model 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-K2C engine) 23 lb. (-26) (t) American Champion 11-0817, 12V 31a. hr. with battery box (Champion instln dwg 4-1599) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, and 7KCAB 23 lb. (+82) (u) Concorde RG25, 12V 25 a. hr. with battery box (Champion instln dwg 4-1599) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, and 7KCAB 23 lb. (+82) (v) Concorde RG25, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1530) Model 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-K2C engine) 23 lb. (-26) (w) Hawker 0769-4005, 12V 15 a hr. (Champion instln. Dwg. 7-1582) Model 7EC (with Continental O-200-A or O-200-D engine) 15 lb. (-25) 308. Generator or Alternator (a) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101890 and 118736 Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC 11 lb. (-28) (b) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Delco-Remy 1101898 and 1118704 Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC 16 lb. (-28) (c) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101899 and 1119226 Models 7ECA with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine, 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCAA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7GCBC, 7HC, 7KC, 7KCAB 12 lb. (-45) (d) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Delco-Remy 1101900 and 1118704 Models 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine), 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCAA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7GCBC, 7HC, 7KC, 7KCAB 18 lb. (-46) (e) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101890 and 1118736 Model 7ECA 12 lb. (-32) (f) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Delco-Remy 1101898 and 1119220 Models 7ECA with Continental O-200-A engine 18 lb. (-31) (g) Alternator and voltage regulator, 12V 40 a., Prestolite Alternator P/N ALE 6406 (Model 7ECA with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine) and Prestolite Alternator P/N ALE 8406 (Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB), Prestolite Voltage Regulator P/N VSF 72-1 or VSF 7202 or VSF 7203 12 lb. (-50) (h) Alternator and voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Motorola RA12N451 and Integral R3-1 regulator - Model 7ACA 8 lb. (-41) (i) Alternator and voltage regulator, 12V 60 a., Prestolite Alternator P/N ALY8403 or ALY-8420 (Model 7ECA with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB). Prestolite Voltage Regulator P/N VSF 7203. 12 lb. (-50) (j) Alternator and voltage regulator, 12V 60 a., Prestolite Alternator P/N ALY8420 G (#2 Field Terminal Grounded) Models 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-C1 or O-235-K2C engine), 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB. Prestolite Voltage Regulator P/N FVR 3224. 12 lb. (-50) 309. Deleted - included in Item 305 310. Landing light (a) Fixed light (dwg. 7-1065) Models 7EC, 7FC only 2 lb. (+7) (b) Retractable light (dwg. 4-10009) Models 7EC, 7FC only 5 lb. (+13) (c) Leading edge landing light (dwg. 4-1001) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7HC, 7JC 2 lb. (+4) (d) Nose bowl landing lights (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1149) Model 7KC only 2 lb. (-55) (e) Nose bowl mounted 100W bulb (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1274) Model 7ECA with CMC O-200-A engine 1 lb. (-22) (f) Nose bowl mounted 100W bulb (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1288) Models 7ECA with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine, 7GCAA, 7 GCBC, 7KCAB 1 lb. (-53) (g) Nose bowl mounted 100W bulb (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1558) Model 7ACA 1 lb. (-53) (h) Nose bowl mounted 100W bulb (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1475) Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 1 lb. (-53) 311. Stall warning equipment installation (a) (Champion dwg. 7-1065) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC 1 lb. (-4) (b) (Champion dwg. 7-1101) Models 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7HC 1 lb. (-2) (c) (Champion dwg. 7-1138) Model 7KC 1 lb. (-2) A-759 Page 29 of 37 (d) (Champion dwg. 7-1163) Model 7GCBA 1 lb. (-2) (e) (Champion dwg. 4-1401) Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB, 7EC 1 lb. (-2) 312. Radio Equipment (a) Narco VHT-3 Superhomer radio instln. (Champion dwg. 3-1063) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7GCBA (Champion dwg. 7-1103) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7HC, 7JC (Champion dwg. 7-1167) Model 7KC Cabin speaker instln. (optional) 13 lb. 1 lb. (-8) (+13) 313. Rotating beacon (a) (Champion dwg. 4-1020) Models 7EC, 7ECA, 7FC, 7GCA, 7GCAA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7GCBC, 7HC, 7JC, 7KCAB 2 lb. (+18 0) (b) (Champion dwg. 7-1149) Model 7KC 3 lb. (+18 2) (c) (Champion dwg. 4-1513) Models 7ACA, 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 2 lb. (+62) 314. Strobe Light (a) Delta Model 7000 per Champion dwg. 4-1512 Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC 4 lb. (+24) (b) Whelen A429 Wing Tip Strobe Lights (Champion instln. dwg. 3-1512) Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 4 lb. (-4) (c) Aeroflash P/N 156-0003 Mo
 
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Doc Holliday said:
Go read the TCDS for the 7EC.


308. Generator or Alternator
( a ) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101890 and 118736
Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC
11 lb. (-28)
( b ) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Delco-Remy 1101898 and 1118704
Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC

Updating the generator to an alternator is not that difficult as you are trying to make it out to be. If you were an actual A&P you would know that.
Click to expand...

Read the required notes. They are not required by the TCDS.

Required Equipment With Continental C90-12F engine: 1, 102, 105, 109, 201, 202.

Your powers to assume things is amazing. Teach us more!

Is it possible that the motor was swapped with a C90-8F? Its an identical motor save no electrical mounting pads.
 
Boundary Waters said:
A-759...

307. Battery (a) Willard AW-12-25 (Model 7EC only) 24 lb. (+54) (b) Bowers BA-25, 12V Model 7EC only Models 7FC, 7JC Models 7GC, 7GCA (with cables), 7HC 24 lb. 24 lb. 28 lb. (+54) (-27) (+79.5) (c) Exide AC-60, 33 a. hr.; AC-66, 33 a. hr.; AC-78, 35 a. hr. 12V manifold vented Models 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7HC (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1066) Model 7KC (Champion dwg. 7-1149) 27 lb. (+79) (d) Exide AC-54 manifold vented, 12V 24 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1108) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC Model 7ECA with CMC O-200-A engine (instln. dwg. 7-1252) Model 7ECA and 7GCBC with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine (instln. dwg. 7-1300) 22 lb. 22 lb. 23 lb. (-27) (-27) (-26) (e) Exide AC-54 manifold vented, 12V 24 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 3-1191) (Model 7EC) 22 lb. (+54) (f) Exide AC-54 manifold vented, 12V 24 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1167) (Model 7GCBA) 22 lb. (-27) (g) Exide AC-66 manifold vented, 12V 33 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1293) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 33 lb. (+82) (h) Rebat S25, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1300) Models 7ECA, 7GCBC (with Lycoming engine O-235-C1) 23 lb. (-26) A-759 Page 28 of 37 (i) Rebat R35, 12V 35 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1469) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 33 lb. (+82) (j) Gill 6GCAB-11, 12V 35 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1509) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 33 lb. (+82) (k) Gill 6-GCAB-9, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1300) Models 7ECA, 7GCBC with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine 23 lb. (-26) (l) Exide AC-78, 12V 35 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1545) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 33 lb. (+82) (m) Sonotone CA-24A, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1578) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 30 lb. (+82) (n) Rebat S25M, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1588) Model 7ACA 21 lb. (+55) (o) Rebat R35, 12V 35 a. hr. with battery box (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1599) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 35 lb. (+82) (p) Gill PS6-11, 12V 35 a. hr. with battery box (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1599) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 35 lb. (+82) (q) Gill PS6-9, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1300) Models 7ECA, 7GCBC (with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine) 23 lb. (-26) (r) Rebat S25, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1530) Model 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-K2C engine) 23 lb. (-26) (s) Gill PS6-9, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1530) Model 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-K2C engine) 23 lb. (-26) (t) American Champion 11-0817, 12V 31a. hr. with battery box (Champion instln dwg 4-1599) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, and 7KCAB 23 lb. (+82) (u) Concorde RG25, 12V 25 a. hr. with battery box (Champion instln dwg 4-1599) Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, and 7KCAB 23 lb. (+82) (v) Concorde RG25, 12V 25 a. hr. (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1530) Model 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-K2C engine) 23 lb. (-26) (w) Hawker 0769-4005, 12V 15 a hr. (Champion instln. Dwg. 7-1582) Model 7EC (with Continental O-200-A or O-200-D engine) 15 lb. (-25) 308. Generator or Alternator (a) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101890 and 118736 Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC 11 lb. (-28) (b) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Delco-Remy 1101898 and 1118704 Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC 16 lb. (-28) (c) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101899 and 1119226 Models 7ECA with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine, 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCAA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7GCBC, 7HC, 7KC, 7KCAB 12 lb. (-45) (d) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Delco-Remy 1101900 and 1118704 Models 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine), 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCAA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7GCBC, 7HC, 7KC, 7KCAB 18 lb. (-46) (e) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101890 and 1118736 Model 7ECA 12 lb. (-32) (f) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Delco-Remy 1101898 and 1119220 Models 7ECA with Continental O-200-A engine 18 lb. (-31) (g) Alternator and voltage regulator, 12V 40 a., Prestolite Alternator P/N ALE 6406 (Model 7ECA with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine) and Prestolite Alternator P/N ALE 8406 (Models 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB), Prestolite Voltage Regulator P/N VSF 72-1 or VSF 7202 or VSF 7203 12 lb. (-50) (h) Alternator and voltage regulator, 12V 35 a., Motorola RA12N451 and Integral R3-1 regulator - Model 7ACA 8 lb. (-41) (i) Alternator and voltage regulator, 12V 60 a., Prestolite Alternator P/N ALY8403 or ALY-8420 (Model 7ECA with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB). Prestolite Voltage Regulator P/N VSF 7203. 12 lb. (-50) (j) Alternator and voltage regulator, 12V 60 a., Prestolite Alternator P/N ALY8420 G (#2 Field Terminal Grounded) Models 7ECA (with Lycoming O-235-C1 or O-235-K2C engine), 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB. Prestolite Voltage Regulator P/N FVR 3224. 12 lb. (-50) 309. Deleted - included in Item 305 310. Landing light (a) Fixed light (dwg. 7-1065) Models 7EC, 7FC only 2 lb. (+7) (b) Retractable light (dwg. 4-10009) Models 7EC, 7FC only 5 lb. (+13) (c) Leading edge landing light (dwg. 4-1001) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7HC, 7JC 2 lb. (+4) (d) Nose bowl landing lights (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1149) Model 7KC only 2 lb. (-55) (e) Nose bowl mounted 100W bulb (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1274) Model 7ECA with CMC O-200-A engine 1 lb. (-22) (f) Nose bowl mounted 100W bulb (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1288) Models 7ECA with Lycoming O-235-C1 engine, 7GCAA, 7 GCBC, 7KCAB 1 lb. (-53) (g) Nose bowl mounted 100W bulb (Champion instln. dwg. 4-1558) Model 7ACA 1 lb. (-53) (h) Nose bowl mounted 100W bulb (Champion instln. dwg. 7-1475) Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 1 lb. (-53) 311. Stall warning equipment installation (a) (Champion dwg. 7-1065) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC 1 lb. (-4) (b) (Champion dwg. 7-1101) Models 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7HC 1 lb. (-2) (c) (Champion dwg. 7-1138) Model 7KC 1 lb. (-2) A-759 Page 29 of 37 (d) (Champion dwg. 7-1163) Model 7GCBA 1 lb. (-2) (e) (Champion dwg. 4-1401) Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB, 7EC 1 lb. (-2) 312. Radio Equipment (a) Narco VHT-3 Superhomer radio instln. (Champion dwg. 3-1063) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7GCBA (Champion dwg. 7-1103) Models 7EC, 7FC, 7GC, 7GCA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7HC, 7JC (Champion dwg. 7-1167) Model 7KC Cabin speaker instln. (optional) 13 lb. 1 lb. (-8) (+13) 313. Rotating beacon (a) (Champion dwg. 4-1020) Models 7EC, 7ECA, 7FC, 7GCA, 7GCAA, 7GCB, 7GCBA, 7GCBC, 7HC, 7JC, 7KCAB 2 lb. (+18 0) (b) (Champion dwg. 7-1149) Model 7KC 3 lb. (+18 2) (c) (Champion dwg. 4-1513) Models 7ACA, 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 2 lb. (+62) 314. Strobe Light (a) Delta Model 7000 per Champion dwg. 4-1512 Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC 4 lb. (+24) (b) Whelen A429 Wing Tip Strobe Lights (Champion instln. dwg. 3-1512) Models 7ECA, 7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7KCAB 4 lb. (-4) (c) Aeroflash P/N 156-0003 Mo
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The original AC was certified sans electrical (by Aeronca). It wasn't until 55ish that an electrical system was added. So without seeing some paperwork, going off OPs description is just chasing tails. OP stated that there are no mounting points for an alt/genny. I'll take that at face value and not keyboard commando's WAGs
 
Regardless of what a particular airplane weighs or can be made to weigh, it must 1) be on the FAA's list of existing certificated aircraft and 2) have always qualified as LSA. If adding the starter made it weigh more than 1320 lbs, it isn't a LSA even if returned to under 1320.

List of aircraft. The 7EC is not on it.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/existingmodels.pdf
 
pfarber said:
Read the required notes. They are not required by the TCDS.

Required Equipment With Continental C90-12F engine: 1, 102, 105, 109, 201, 202.

Your powers to assume things is amazing. Teach us more!

Is it possible that the motor was swapped with a C90-8F? Its an identical motor save no electrical mounting pads.
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NO they are not REQUIRED. And they were not put on most AC (In fact they ALL couldn't have been.) BUT if the item is listed on the TDCS then no 337 is required to install same. My QUESTION was... If it wasn't built with X, and X was installed later, can my friend remove X if he buys the AC?

To which Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said: ↑
"91.215 (b) (3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed," (similar for ADS-B)
But, in this particular case, it had "subsequently been certified with such a system installed", so if you want to fly it in "rule" airspace, then at least a battery / transponder / ADS-B out would be required - assuming one wanted to follow the letter of the law.

Which answered my original question.
 
pfarber said:
Read the required notes. They are not required by the TCDS.

Required Equipment With Continental C90-12F engine: 1, 102, 105, 109, 201, 202.

Your powers to assume things is amazing. Teach us more!
Click to expand...

Your powers to keep pretending to be something you're clearly not, and your powers to not understand what's going on are amazing.

You're clueless.
 
Boundary Waters said:
(1) It was built and originally certified with a C-90-12F, said engine as built has no starter or generator mount. The aircraft currently has an engine driven electrical system. Can this be removed-- the reason being a gain of 93 pounds useful load?
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Yes.
Boundary Waters said:
(2) Per the "official record" the aircraft is certificated at 1300 pounds gross.
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What are you using as the "official record"?
Boundary Waters said:
So IF there is no record (in the logs or CD) that THIS serial number aircraft ever had a different strut OR a GW increase (by STC or whatever) then it is still eligible for use by Sport Pilot credentialed pilots.
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Maybe. But just because you have no record doesn't mean it's not a 1450 aircraft. Remember most mx records are only required to be kept for 1 year or until repeated and no factory option requires a 337. However, since the 7EC is not listed on the FAA Light Sport listing there must be an issue determining if an 7EC is a 1300 or 1450 aircraft. A call to American Champion might get you a better answer.
Boundary Waters said:
objectively worth more
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No. Aircraft values are strictly subjective to both parties.
 
pfarber said:
If there is no 337 or STC then that genny set needs to come off.
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Why? Factory options/items listed in the Aircraft Specifications are not considered major alterations by regulation which in turn do not require a 337.

So what's your point? The more you post the deeper your hole gets.:rolleyes:
 
Boundary Waters said:
I wonder why.

It's clearly listed as having a 1300 lb. gross weight.
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There were two versions of the 7EC, one at 1450 lbs, one at 1300. I suspect that because the model has two configurations, it was not included in the list.

My understanding is that list I linked is the definitive list of certificated aircraft. I don't know if that means a particular airplane not on the list could qualify as light sport.
 
pfarber said:
That's not the question. The question is does the TCDS list such items.
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Actually, the OP stated that the C-90-12 was not configured to accept a generator and starter. The TCDS shows that it is.

Ron Wanttaja
 
bflynn said:
There were two versions of the 7EC, one at 1450 lbs, one at 1300. I suspect that because the model has two configurations, it was not included in the list.

My understanding is that list I linked is the definitive list of certificated aircraft. I don't know if that means a particular airplane not on the list could qualify as light sport.
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Actually at least THREE versions PLUS 7ECAs which are another ball of wax...

Definitive in the sense that if it is on the list ... it is approved ... perhaps. But not definitive in that the list is complete. Besides the Heath LNA-40 not being on the list. -- I don't think the gal at Oshkosh was too interested in selling hers. :) It might be the only one on the registry.)

From A-759... (In addition to 1300 lb 7ECs in section VIII... -- Section eight... yeah, it fits.)

NOTE 16. The following changes apply to 7EC aircraft built in 2006 and later
Engine Continental O-200-A or O-200-D
Fuel 80 minimum grade aviation gasoline (O-200-A) 100LL minimum grade aviation gasoline (O-200-D)
Engine Limits For all operations, 2750 r.p.m. (100 hp.)
Airspeed Limits Level flight or c limb 100 m.p.h. (87 knots) True Ind. Glide or dive 135 m.p.h. (117 knots) True Ind.
C.G. Range Normal Category: (+14.0) to (+19.2) at 1320 lb. (+11.0) to (+19.2) at 1100 lb. or less
Utility Category: (+14.0) to (+18.2) at 1320 lb. (+11.0) to (+18.2) at 1100 lb. or less Straight line variation between points given.
Empty wt. C.G. Range None
Maximum Weight 1320 lb. < ------------------------------ <<<
No. of Seats 2 (1 at +11.5, 1 at +43) 2 (1 at +11 to +14 with item 404(n), 1 at +43)
Maximum Baggage 100 lbs. at +69
Fuel Capacity 18 gal. At +24.5
Oil Capacity 6 qt. at –35 (O-200-A) 5 qt at –35 (O-200-D)
Control Surface Movements Elevator Up 24o Down 24o Elevator Trim Tab Up 17.5o Down 37.5o Ailerons Up 28.5o Down 18o Rudder Right 25o Left 25o
Serial Nos. Eligible 1000-2006 and up
Required Equipment Items 25, 111(i), 118(f), 201(o), 202(g), 307(w), 311(e), 409(d)
 
So how is the Champ as an aircraft? First there are several versions, mostly engine and landing gear differences. The original is a 7AC, no electrical system and a 65hp engine. There are several other variations up to 90hp in the 7EC and 100hp in the new 7EC LSA from American Champion. It is important to note that the only light sport versions of this plane are the 7AC-DC, early 7EC and the new 7EC LSA.

https://www.sportpilotstuff.com/aeronca.html
 
TCDS for Aeronca 7XXX series attached. Page 23 specifies starter for 7EC:

( a ) Delco-Remy No. 1109656, 12V, Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC 16 lb. (-28)

Page 28 specifies the generator and regulator.

( a ) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101890 and 118736 Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC

Ron Wanttaja
 

Attachments

  • aeronca TCDS.pdf
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A couple of things you can do. One is to just look at the lower gear leg. The No-bounce gear has a large collar and it also hangs down about 6 inches when you are in the air. Also, it is practically impossible to bounce on a landing with that gear. The other option is to just simply look at the W&B document. I have no idea what the production line stats were for Champion back then but my guess is the majority of 7EC's were equipped with an electrical system, the no-bounce gear and 1450 lb gross. There was no such thing as sport pilot back then and 7AC Champs and 8A Luscombes were being converted in mass to higher gross specs per the TCDS and service letters because everyone in his right mind wanted a higher useful load, starter, radio and an ADF or VOR for nav.

Because of BasicMed the whole sport pilot thing is kind of watered down now so I don't think it's as big a deal as it was 5 years ago in regards to value and I wouldn't consider it a deal maker or breaker. Some will disagree but the 90hp Champ with full electrical system is just plain a better airplane and more enjoyable if you really want to use it every day and go places. So in my opinion it's worth more.
 
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Doc Holliday said:
Your powers to keep pretending to be something you're clearly not, and your powers to not understand what's going on are amazing.

You're clueless.
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Oh no's some random jabroni on the internet used mean words! what will I do!?! where is my safe space?

Seriously, do you honestly think I care what you think?
 
wanttaja said:
TCDS for Aeronca 7XXX series attached. Page 23 specifies starter for 7EC:

( a ) Delco-Remy No. 1109656, 12V, Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC 16 lb. (-28)

Page 28 specifies the generator and regulator.

( a ) Generator, voltage regulator, 12V 20 a., Delco-Remy 1101890 and 118736 Models 7EC, 7FC, 7JC

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...

We don't know the make or model of this AC. OP stated that the engine didn't have 'mounts', but there is starter/genny gear there. OP is saying 7EC. Is this truly a 7EC? Not a 7AC converted? Could the motor have been swapped? Adding a starter and electrical system is (by the service letter) quite a task and would require a new motor.

Maybe OP is confused because the C90 mounts the starter and genny to the accessory case at the rear, not the front of the engine (like lycomings do?)

So much can be resolved with a single photo.

As for the weight limit, that's a done deal. Its to heavy.
 
If an apology* is to be given for creating this tempest in a teapot, I am truly sorry.

*apology, OED #3. "a reasoned argument or writing in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine."

I spoke with my friend, the guy considering buying this plane that might be for sale (which sets the mood) and he read the many comments here. Which of course led to more questions-- which really is a good thing-- and he asked the potential seller, who responded...

The AC is LEGALLY a 7EC BUT it was built as a 7AC and later converted as authorized by Factory Letter (likely the same one pfarber posted) it never had the no bounce gear and has always been certificated at less than 1320 pounds. So for whatever its worth, a person with naught but Sport Pilot privileges can legally fly the plane-- and maybe, maybe, maybe that makes it worth $1.23 more, just like being blue instead of red makes it worth $0.87 more...

But the original non-electric A-65 was swapped out with a C-something-12 and that motor had a generator on it. So by the book, and assuming there is a record somewhere of that fact... By the way, for the record it's currently registered as N-X-211, :) or so I was told... It has to keep the ADS-B.

Don't know if this is true or not... The potential seller says that none of the original Aeronca (Middleton Ohio) built 7ECs were certificated over 1300 pounds. BUT SOME of the later Wisconsin built (Champion) ones were (the ones with the no-bounce gear) AND some of the Ohio built ones (as well as 7ACs converted to 7EC) were retrofitted and had thier GWs increased to 1400 or even 1500 pounds. When production moved to Minnesota (Bellanca) SOME 1300 GW airplanes were built but most were 1500 GWs. And now ACA (Wisconsin again) makes both a 1320 GW 7EC and a heavier "Citabria Aurora" under the same section of the TC...

And since it was certificated at more than 1450 on floats, IF the airplane was ever set on them it is no longer LSA eligible -- Did you ever get the feeling that lawyers write the rules the way they do specifically to drum up business?

Confused anyone?

Glad it's his decision not mine...
 
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The 7AC had a gross of 1220 lb. Replacing the A-65 with a C-90 plus starter, generator and battery would really wreck the useful load.

There are other considerations. The old wing strut fittings on the spar were light and had strength issues. The struts themselves were light, made of very thin steel, and they rusted out from the inside. The wooden spars have a tendency to crack; the aluminum ribs are nailed to the spars, and as the wood ages and shrinks across the grain, and the aluminum expands in temperature changes, those nails force the wood grain apart, causing cracks though the nails parallel to the grain. There are also compression failures that can happen at the ends of the plywood doublers on the spars at the root and strut attach points. The AD addressing this calls for a thorough inspection, but the aluminum leading edge is over the top of the spar and it's nearly impossible to get a good look without cutting inspection holes in the top of the leading edge. We found cracks in one airplane's spars while replacing the fabric.

A thorough prebuy is in order, I'd say.
 
I’ve been involved with something like this; twice!

First Time

Routine Annual on a Champ. Until the hangar door was opened.

Lycoming O-235, Starter , Generator, Lights, dual wing tanks and a Citabria

cowling sitting nearby!

Hmm!

Everything you might want ; except NO PAPERWORK!

Of course the new owners thought this was insane because the aircraft

had been purchased from B___ ; who was THE GURU for the type.

As it played out:

1. The 7AC had no documentation for the mods.

2. I would not sign w/o that documentation.

3. Owners have an airplane w/o an Annual.

4, The person that did the mods would not furnish the paperwork for the mods.

It got rather ugly.

Finally I did what most Techs and myself hate to do.

I pressed the “ Fed Button”!

I don’t know what was said.

Obviously; this did not exactly endear me to B___.

In about 2 weeks a very professional looking packet detailing the

entire approvals in question arrived.

Never did figure out his reluctance to document his alterations.
 
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