Refresher training - flaps?

gkainz

gkainz

Final Approach
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Greg Kainz
After a 2+ year layoff from flying for family health reasons, I'm finally back in the air again. Doing refresher training and prep for a BFR, the instructor I paired up with tells me her normal landings are no flaps. My training was full flaps for normal landings (C-172).

Do I:
1. use this as a training situation and brush up on no flap landings
2. insist to go back to my training routine, since this is really a Back In The Saddle flying - trying to re-establish habits again.
3. something else?
 
Just my 2 cents worth here, but I would say since you are the PIC and not a student pilot, do it the way you want to and are comfortable. Just because that is the way SHE does it or teaches it, doesn't make right or wrong. If she is set on doing it HER way, get another CFI.
 
Read the POH, determine differences in approach speed, landing distance, etc. Review applicable publications. Then ask her why.

Back in the day, many instructors taught no-flaps, thought the flaps were just there if you screwed up and needed help. I had no idea anybody still taught that method.

gkainz said:
After a 2+ year layoff from flying for family health reasons, I'm finally back in the air again. Doing refresher training and prep for a BFR, the instructor I paired up with tells me her normal landings are no flaps. My training was full flaps for normal landings (C-172).

Do I:
1. use this as a training situation and brush up on no flap landings
2. insist to go back to my training routine, since this is really a Back In The Saddle flying - trying to re-establish habits again.
3. something else?
Click to expand...
 
I see no reason not to go with no flap landings if that what the CFI wants. No big deal, just landing a little faster and longer. You can always slip to loose altitude, if you need to.
 
It's good to be proficient in landing with full flaps, partial flaps and no flaps. For her to limit you to strictly no flaps isn't good. You need to know the aircraft's ability and limitations at varying airspeeds and configurations.

If you want to cut down on the time you might spend with the CFI on ground, you can make use of the program on FAA Safety. It will take about 6-8 hours to run through.

https://faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=25
 
My $.02, get a new CFI. Who knows what other unusual training ideas you will encounter with her.

Normal landing for almost all GA planes are with flap, read what the POH says. Ask why she is teaching your to not follow the POH and then get a CFI that follows procedures and does not make stuff up.

While being able to land with multiple configuration is good practice there is a reason that normal landing are full flaps.
 
POH is "normal" for BFR, CFI sounds a little strange for her "normal". Good to practice with no-flaps in case they fail sometime but obviously not a big issue with SkyHawks.
 
In a 172 flaps vs no flaps is not even an issue. Back when I learned to fly flaps weren't even taught until after solo and all landings were power off from downwind. I continued to teach this way for years after.

Simple solution is find a CFI you are comfortable with.
 
I'm comfortable doing either - just had a more normal routine of full flaps landings per POH and reestablishing routine is what I'm shooting for. I'm quite sure she'll be fine with me telling her "gonna follow the POH and my routine" ... besides, I'm not kicking her out of the plane yet - she's been fun so far (cute, too, but old guys aren't supposed to say that).

I did look into the new WINGS again - I used the old WINGS in lieu of BFRs in the past. I'm probably going that route again.
 
First off, Greg, Congratulations on the return to the sky! I am really happy that you are back up again!!!

Learning to land without flaps is excellent practice, but I would think after a 2 year hiatus, you would need to practice full flap landings too. Maybe ask the CFI if you can do some practice landings with full flaps "In case I screw up and have to do them later myself." The perfect solution would be to find a new CFI, but if you mesh well with her besides this issue, just placating her may work.

Good luck, and lets hear some flying stories!
 
Maybe she flies an older T-craft with no flaps, or things that is the way you should train in case it doesn't have any flaps. However I would do what you have been trained to do. Bob
 
A normal landing in a 172 is with full flaps. There may be reasons to use less than full flaps in non-normal situations.

Since using full flaps reduces energy, you land slower, shorter, etc. It also means you're easier on the brakes, and if you DO have an accident while landing there's less energy available to kill you.

Ask your CFI what her reasoning is. If she teaches no flaps as a proficiency exercise, that's one thing.
 
The guidance from the FAA is to use full flaps on all "normal" landings unless there's a good reason not to. This would be especially important in the thin air of Colorado where density altitude effects make your touchdown ground speed higher at the same approach IAS -- no need making your landings longer and burning up more of your brakes than necessary. I'd be interested to hear your instructor's reasons for wanting no flaps on normal landings.
 
Sounds like a discussion will happen tomorrow or Monday depending on schedules - I will go over this with her ... one difference in environments is runway lengths - prior flying at Erie and Boulder with 4700' and 4900' runways, now at Jeffco, uh "Metro" with 9000' and 7000' runways ...
 
gkainz said:
I'm comfortable doing either - just had a more normal routine of full flaps landings per POH and reestablishing routine is what I'm shooting for.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with practicing no-flap landings, but they are most definitely not "normal" unless your plane has no flaps. Can you get her to explain why she says that, and tell us? :dunno:

besides, I'm not kicking her out of the plane yet - she's been fun so far (cute, too, but old guys aren't supposed to say that).
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:needpics:

We're not all old. ;)
 
Now Kent, a gentleman would not post a young lady's photo on line without her permission ... :nono:

but it IS online under Staff on the company website :rofl:
 
gkainz said:
Now Kent, a gentleman would not post a young lady's photo on line without her permission ... :nono:
Click to expand...

So, what's stopping YOU then? :rofl: ;) (Sorry, you set that up just too perfectly to resist. :smilewinkgrin:)

but it IS online under Staff on the company website :rofl:
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Journeys? :dunno: I flew there once. I looked under "flight instructors" and there were no cute females with pictures listed, though there was a female name without a picture, and a cute female "flying" the sim in one of the pictures.

(I am bored. I should go to sleep.)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
So, what's stopping YOU then? :rofl: ;) (Sorry, you set that up just too perfectly to resist. :smilewinkgrin:)



Journeys? :dunno: I flew there once. I looked under "flight instructors" and there were no cute females with pictures listed, though there was a female name without a picture, and a cute female "flying" the sim in one of the pictures.

(I am bored. I should go to sleep.)
Click to expand...

Creepy :D
 
She is a cutie... in spite of her described landing specifications.

Allen.png


:)
 
This just sounds like some sort of miscommunication. It's not like she refused to allow you to use the flaps...? Maybe she was talking about her normal landings on that (long) runway...?

FWIW, since you ask, regardless of what the regs say, if you are getting back into airplanes with flaps, use 'em, but practice landing without 'em, because like every wonderful improvement to the basic airframe, they can fail.
So yeah, a little practice without flaps is worth your time.

I say: be a good boy, nod and smile, get signed off, then resume learning where you left off. :wink2:

You obviously are not going to try anything rash- I've never taken dual in preparation for the BFR, even after a long hiatus; that's pretty thorough of you.

But remember: sometimes flaps fail to come up, too. :D
 
TMetzinger said:
Ask your CFI what her reasoning is. If she teaches no flaps as a proficiency exercise, that's one thing.
Click to expand...

In a no-flap landing the nose is much easier to get up in the flare and the deck angle on the approach is higher so that there's minimal change in angle in the flare. Full-flap approaches are steeper, the deck angle is considerably lower, and the angle change required in the flare is large. Too many pilots let the airplane touch down on all three wheels, or even nose-first. I saw a 172 do that this week, porpoising down the runway. Very bad technique.

If the porpoise is wild enough, the nosegear bashes the firewall in and the prop will strike the runway and damage the engine and a lot of other stuff. These are expensive bits, see, and when a flight-school owner is trying to make money he might forbid full-flap landings and elect to replace tires more often instead. Or a CFI who's maybe had a bad scare with him/herself or with a student might decide that use of flaps is out from now on. Both are band-aid solutions to a lethal airmanship problem and the cure is to learn to fly the airplane instead of avoiding certain situations.

Same thing goes for spins and taildraggers and floats and all the things a real pilot should be willing to tackle. Provided it's affordable.

Dan
 
Kenny, Kenny, Kenny .... I'm not saying a word ... other than "Dang! You're GOOD!"

RottyDaddy summed it up nicely - no, she's not refusing me to use flaps - just mentioned that she "normally does no flap landings" and we were heading into Jeffco ... dang it, Metro - so I said "ok, I'll play along - let's do no-flap landings". Next flight I'm proposing a few trips around the pattern at one of the shorter fields "with flaps" and I'm sure that will be just fine, too.

So, yeah, a nod and a smile - it's all learning experiences!
 
Dan Thomas said:
Same thing goes for spins and taildraggers and floats and all the things a real pilot should be willing to tackle. Provided it's affordable.

Dan
Click to expand...

Hey now, I am a real pilot, and my choice to not tackle taildraggers has nothing to do with the difficulty, and everything to do with the attitude of "its the only way to fly." I don't want to become one of those guys, like a Mooney driver.
 
I think I shared this once before, but one time I had a flap handle break off about half way up the johnson bar handle. I had my thumb on the button going from 2 notches to 3. So I lost all of the flaps I had down. I just went ahead and landed no flaps on a 4700 ft runway. I just landed a little farther down at a little faster speed. I had to have my mechanic install a new one. Bob
 
SkyHog said:
Hey now, I am a real pilot, and my choice to not tackle taildraggers has nothing to do with the difficulty, and everything to do with the attitude of "its the only way to fly." I don't want to become one of those guys, like a Mooney driver.
Click to expand...

Don't be put off by that kind of talk... it's not all that bad. Besides, Mooneys have nosewheels... blechhh...:D

It's not the only way to fly- it's just more interesting. :wink2:
 
Bob Bement said:
I think I shared this once before, but one time I had a flap handle break off about half way up the johnson bar handle. I had my thumb on the button going from 2 notches to 3. So I lost all of the flaps I had down. I just went ahead and landed no flaps on a 4700 ft runway. I just landed a little farther down at a little faster speed. I had to have my mechanic install a new one. Bob
Click to expand...
Such as this is why every one of my students who normally fly the 172S are gonna get at least one ride in one of our "new" 1956 Skyhawks where they will "lose" ALL flaps in one move of my left hand. :)
 
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