Reducing multi-engine training cost

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Trying to find the best way (for me at least) to build multi-time/experience while reducing the cost.

For a little background:
-Private ASEL/AMEL
-Currently around 270 TT and 50 Multi
-Goals are to complete multi-commercial and CFI/CFII and MEI
-not looking for an airline job - just a strong desire to fly and eventually instruct

I am a member of a large flying club and have access to a BE-76 at 200/hr.

I've read up on aircraft ownership and leasebacks (including the info posted here) and am considering the idea of puchasing a light twin and putting it into the club to reduce the cost of my own flying.

I was thinking that a Duchess would be the best a/c to purchase from a leaseback perspective - in our club, I suspect that it would probably get 20-30 hrs of use a month aside from my own flying. Also, I could probably afford to buy a decent BE-76 with mid-time engines without needing a loan. Our club manager was recommending against the Duchess for maintenance reasons and suggesting a Seminole. I am not averse to PA44s, but with the exception of the turbos, I would definitely need a loan to purchase a Seminole which I suspect would make the leaseback a money losing proposition.

With that in mind, I am thinking the Duchess is the best fit, plus if I end up moving away from my current duty station (active military) then I would have an aircraft that I could either sell without a major loss or take with me and instruct in wherever I move to.

Other options are to go for something much cheaper like an Apache or Travel Air as a time builder and fly it outside the club (insurance would be MUCH cheaper).

Any advice?

Am I better off just renting at 200/hr?

Appreciate all viewpoints.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Trying to find the best way (for me at least) to build multi-time/experience while reducing the cost.

For a little background:
-Private ASEL/AMEL
-Currently around 270 TT and 50 Multi
-Goals are to complete multi-commercial and CFI/CFII and MEI
-not looking for an airline job - just a strong desire to fly and eventually instruct

I am a member of a large flying club and have access to a BE-76 at 200/hr.

I've read up on aircraft ownership and leasebacks (including the info posted here) and am considering the idea of puchasing a light twin and putting it into the club to reduce the cost of my own flying.

I was thinking that a Duchess would be the best a/c to purchase from a leaseback perspective - in our club, I suspect that it would probably get 20-30 hrs of use a month aside from my own flying. Also, I could probably afford to buy a decent BE-76 with mid-time engines without needing a loan. Our club manager was recommending against the Duchess for maintenance reasons and suggesting a Seminole. I am not averse to PA44s, but with the exception of the turbos, I would definitely need a loan to purchase a Seminole which I suspect would make the leaseback a money losing proposition.

With that in mind, I am thinking the Duchess is the best fit, plus if I end up moving away from my current duty station (active military) then I would have an aircraft that I could either sell without a major loss or take with me and instruct in wherever I move to.

Other options are to go for something much cheaper like an Apache or Travel Air as a time builder and fly it outside the club (insurance would be MUCH cheaper).

Any advice?

Am I better off just renting at 200/hr?

Appreciate all viewpoints.
Click to expand...

Since you're certified AMEL already, buy or borrow someone's Cri-Cri that's certified as a multi-engine. 2GPH is REALLY hard to beat! Apparently, since it's a single seat twin, the FAA opted to certify about half of them as single engine aircraft, conveniently not noticing that second prop hanging out there.

It's light enough ([FONT=arial,helvetica]empty weight of just 139 lb) [/FONT]that you don't even need to put it on the line to afford it! Look at the Wings FlyBQ threads for some pictures of a Cri Cri, or just use Google!

:) Okay, the airlines may look askance at 300 hours of Cri Cri time! :)
 
Buying a plane and leasing it to a FBO or flight school is rarely a good way to reduce the cost of flying. It may allow you to own a plane you could otherwise not afford, but it hardly reduces the direct cost of flying unless you rob Peter to pay Paul, and that catches up with you eventually even if you can get the lessee to buy off on such an arrangement. As for buying an old Apache or the like and just flying it around, I think that you'll find that at the end of the day, you've spent more than $200/hour once you factor in all the costs of buying, keeping, and selling the plane over the number of hours you flew it because you are unlikely to fly as many hours per month/year as the club does, and overhead divided by hours becomes a very large number when the denominator is small.

My suggestion to you with 50 hours ME time already is to forget buying a twin and spend your money on obtaining your single-engine Commercial and CFI certificates and then adding the ME ratings. With that much time in twins, you should have little problem adding the ME ratings to each and then giving training in the club's Duchess to build your ME PIC time.
 
The cheapest way to fly is to get someone else to pay for it. For that, you need commercial ratings. After that, then you have to find a flying job. You'll need commercial ratings for instruction anyway, so my suggestion would be to go ahead and get those.

Now as to how to get cheap multi time, keep in mind that, especially with a lot of the "cheap" twins, the purchase price really is just the price of entry. Let's say you spend $50k on a twin, you can easily spend that much in the first year of ownership on flying and maintenance. Of course, a lot of that will vary depending on how cheap you want to be with regards to maintenance, etc., but you have more parts to break, more systems, more wires, more long cables, etc.

FWIW, in about 16 months and 450 hours of flying time in my Aztec, most of my maintenance so far has been either upgrades or standard wear items. I really haven't had anything unexpected, other than my left engine needing cylinders. I've also done several upgrades that were not cheap, but I think were very good to do. Things like engine monitor, new battery cables, avionics.

Best thing is if you can find someone who has a twin that he or she doesn't fly enough, and work a deal to use that. Other than that, if you have a $200/hr rental, then that is probably pretty decent. You'll have a hard time beating that with actual costs. If you want to own your own plane (which for me was a large part of the goal), then a Travel Air is a great option. I love them, although the one I have experience with is also probably the nicest one in the country, so I'm a bit biased.

One thing you didn't mention is your location - some of us may have local ideas to help.
 
Please, please, please do not buy a twin and leaseback as a method to make it affordable. If you are really lucky, the plane might make a little money and even net you a few hundred per month above ownership costs. Worst case, you've got maintenance costs through the roof, lots of downtime, few rentals, and hence all the costs of ownership, but you are sharing the plane with others. Paying to fix stuff that other people break is a bad deal.

And for that matter, buying an airplane especially a twin (solo or with partners) to help save costs is really a crap shoot. You could get lucky, and quickly put a few hundred hours on it with little maintenance. Or you could have a crank break in the first 10 hrs and require a major overhaul along with the $20-40k costs that go with it.

That said - if you were to go this route, if you are just looking to build time, I would stay away from the really cheaply priced (<<$100k) twins. Many are nearly 50 years old, have huge engines with expensive overhauls, old panels, and burn a ton of fuel.

If you are just looking to build time, I'd buy something powered by a smaller engine, like a Seminole, Duchess, or Twinkie and fly it around at 45-50% power for some nice long cross countries. The simpler and lower cost the engine... the better. And, if you could find a flying partner (ideally an MEI looking to build time) then you'd be set.

Edit: One last comment. $200/hr is actually pretty good for a twin. Most twins burn around 20gph. @ $5/gallon fuel, that's $100/hr right there, and you haven't paid for hangar, insurance, loan/capital loss, or maintenance.


Fearless Tower said:
Trying to find the best way (for me at least) to build multi-time/experience while reducing the cost.

For a little background:
-Private ASEL/AMEL
-Currently around 270 TT and 50 Multi
-Goals are to complete multi-commercial and CFI/CFII and MEI
-not looking for an airline job - just a strong desire to fly and eventually instruct

I am a member of a large flying club and have access to a BE-76 at 200/hr.

I've read up on aircraft ownership and leasebacks (including the info posted here) and am considering the idea of puchasing a light twin and putting it into the club to reduce the cost of my own flying.

I was thinking that a Duchess would be the best a/c to purchase from a leaseback perspective - in our club, I suspect that it would probably get 20-30 hrs of use a month aside from my own flying. Also, I could probably afford to buy a decent BE-76 with mid-time engines without needing a loan. Our club manager was recommending against the Duchess for maintenance reasons and suggesting a Seminole. I am not averse to PA44s, but with the exception of the turbos, I would definitely need a loan to purchase a Seminole which I suspect would make the leaseback a money losing proposition.

With that in mind, I am thinking the Duchess is the best fit, plus if I end up moving away from my current duty station (active military) then I would have an aircraft that I could either sell without a major loss or take with me and instruct in wherever I move to.

Other options are to go for something much cheaper like an Apache or Travel Air as a time builder and fly it outside the club (insurance would be MUCH cheaper).

Any advice?

Am I better off just renting at 200/hr?

Appreciate all viewpoints.
Click to expand...
 
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- Why buy a twin if you can rent one for $200/hr ? Most people who end up buying to build hours do so because there are no rentals available for someone with less than 100hrs ME (and the ones that are available cost twice that).

- The club already has a ME trainer. Why do you think your second ME trainer will get the same amount of hours ? Unless yours is a lot nicer, the current hours will probably be split between the two making neither viable.
 
Here are a few questions you much ask yourself:

If I rent the current plane, how much can I lose/spend for each hour I fly it?

How much can I make/lose/spend for each hour somebody else flies it?

How much can I lose/spend if nobody flies it?

How much capital investment and ongoing expense do I incur in order to rent it?

How much might I lose if the airplane sells for signficantly less than purchase price?

How much ongoing expense will I incur if the airplane is down for an extended time for maintenance and repair? How much of that cost will I be required to bear?

What is my maximum financial exposure for 50 hours of M/E time?

Then ask the same questions about a purchased airplane.
 
I'll also point out that insurance on a plane that's on the rental line will be much higher than if you're the only one flying it, so it has to make at least that much just to cover the additional costs of having it on the line!
 
Borrow a twin... taxi real slow....fly around the pattern once ...taxi real slow again and then sit on the ramp with the engines idle as long as you want.....




For real...If you do buy an old twin...keep it...fly it until the wings almost fall off.
the guy who taught me how to fly has an old junk POS apache he bought for 20k. It was atrocious ..treated it like an old farm truck..refused to spend any money on it.porn posted all over the interior and spilled Red Man spit on all of the seats..(it has been sent home on more than one check-ride) the dude actually got his principle back by renting out 50 blocks for $100 /hour dry + you pay for your own insurance...thats really the key not to lose your ass on a rental.
 
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In your cost accounting figures, ask yourself what you would do if after about 80 hours one of your engines decides to throw a piston rod through the cylinder head, and then assuming, you are lucky enough to put down without further damage, will you be able to put about $34k into a new engine? (this is not really a rhetorical question, see my post titled "I guess it really can happen to you!".

$200/hr to rent a twin sounds good to me if you can get it pretty much whenever you want without too much hassle.
 
$100/hr wet for an Apache? He must fix NOTHING on it. Including all the things that need fixing and oil changes. That thing will burn close to $100/hr worth of fuel.
 
What Ron said.

And if you want to buy a light twin, a Duchess is one of the more expensive options. They seem to be around 100k+. You could buy a Twin Comanche for less and flip it FAIRLY easily. You can find an Apache or Aztruck for much less and not have to buy Beech spares. It's also much easier to find spares for the Pipers.

That being said --- if you have ANY kind of money constraint DO NOT BUY. Bad stuff happens in $1000 increments in airplanes (1 AMU). Rent. Offer to do the safety pilot thing. Do not buy.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
$100/hr wet for an Apache? He must fix NOTHING on it. Including all the things that need fixing and oil changes. That thing will burn close to $100/hr worth of fuel.
Click to expand...


Dry.....sorry typo.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
$100/hr wet for an Apache? He must fix NOTHING on it. Including all the things that need fixing and oil changes. That thing will burn close to $100/hr worth of fuel.
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Unless you're paying $7/gallon for fuel, I doubt that fuel cost number. Based on my experience owning a Cougar with the same engines as a 160 Apache, I'd figure 15 gph total for XC flying, less for training/pattern work.

But $100/hr wet would still leave almost nothing for maintenance after hangaring and insurance.
 
Ron Levy said:
Unless you're paying $7/gallon for fuel, I doubt that fuel cost number. Based on my experience owning a Cougar with the same engines as a 160 Apache, I'd figure 15 gph total for XC flying, less for training/pattern work.

But $100/hr wet would still leave almost nothing for maintenance after hangaring and insurance.
Click to expand...

Ted is very much correct...you would be paying someone to fly if you rented that at 100/hour wet.....I rent out a pa-28 for 105/hour and fuel is about half the cost...do the math...and apache is a twin cherokee
 
Ron Levy said:
Unless you're paying $7/gallon for fuel, I doubt that fuel cost number. Based on my experience owning a Cougar with the same engines as a 160 Apache, I'd figure 15 gph total for XC flying, less for training/pattern work.

But $100/hr wet would still leave almost nothing for maintenance after hangaring and insurance.
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You apparently missed the words "close to". :rolleyes:

$100/hr wet wouldn't even cover hangar and insurance after fuel, I'd bet.
 
Why would you hangar or insure a POS like that ? Insurance is covered by the renters and the birds can poop on it. There is no engine reserve and maintenance is either deferred or performed by shade-tree joe with the magic pen.
 
I have an Apache... I flight plan 18 gallons an hour going cross country... A retractable twin is triple the cost of operating a fixed gear single - I have had singles and twins over the past 50 years and I KNOW what it costs...

You cannot make out financially on a lease back - you are only allowing the lessor to make money at your expense...

Car gas is on its way to $6 in 18 months... Avgas will be what - $9? Only an optimist - or a fool - would sink money in a twin engine fuel eating machine at this point in time... Stay with the simplest single you can haul the family with, or rent...

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
You cannot make out financially on a lease back - you are only allowing the lessor to make money at your expense...
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It is entirely possible to do so, but most folks don't negotiate a deal that does because they want the plane more than the lessor does.
 
Every time I run a spreadsheet on the pro/con of leaseback the answer is always the same. The leaseback covers the maintenance cost. I pay the rest.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Every time I run a spreadsheet on the pro/con of leaseback the answer is always the same. The leaseback covers the maintenance cost. I pay the rest.
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It's all how you negotiate the deal. Believe me, when Cessna Finance is the lessee, Cessna Finance makes money on the deal.
 
The only guy I knew who did well on a leaseback was a young pilot/A&P. He bought a C-172 cheap because he knew the owner wanted to unload it. The airplane flew a ton as a trainer and he did all his own 100 hours and maintenance.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Trying to find the best way (for me at least) to build multi-time/experience while reducing the cost.
Click to expand...

There used to be an outfit in Galveston, Texas that does offshore pipeline surveys. This involves hours and hours of low, fast flying out over the Gulf Of Mexico. The pipelines have to be surveyed in order for product to be transported through it. Every once in a while you find a leak in one.

The company operates with light twins, for the perceived safety factor (at least you can skim in ground effect back to the beach even if you cant climb on one engine)... They charge whatever to the oil company. They do take licensed multi engine pilots along and let them fly the routes as PIC, and charge them in the neighborhood of 50-100/hr for the privilege (the company pilots are MEI's).

Usually stays booked up in blocks of two weeks or more. No idea if they still operate, but that business model was a valid one.



The absolute cheapest way is to buy an old light twin, fly for the cost of fuel then try to sell it for as much as you can..


Both methods require a reserve of cash/funds.
 
I really enjoyed my Apache. The Duchess would be a money pit, from what others have told me.
Seriously, don't expect to make money on a leaseback. Hindsight is 20/20. I would have saved money by renting.
But I really enjoyed my Apache.
 
Thanks all for the replies and input. After alot of thought and research, I have indeed come to the conclusion that owning a twin is just not the right choice for me t this time. After considerable research, the leaseback idea is indeed a gamble that at best could break even, but maintenance downtime with alot of people flying could end up being a money pit. For straight time-building, it looks like buying something along the lines of an Apache/Travel Air or Twin Comanche is a better option as long as you get a good one. To insure a Duchess in the club would be about 10k per year. To insure an Apache or TA for just myself looks like around 4500-5500 for the first year (can get that down to 900 if I pay cash and self insure - do liabililty only).

What really convinced me though was the realization that with my goals, what I really need to be doing is building time in C172s and PA28s flying from the right seat. I'll have my commercial shortly and will start working the CFI ticket, but need 400 TT before I can instruct in the club airplanes. Owning my own plane would certainly be nice, but I think I am better not limiting myself to just flying just one aircraft right now.

Just out of curiosity for future info, what do annuals for Apaches and Travel Airs tend to look like. I was roughly estimating 5k, but not sure if that is low or high?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just out of curiosity for future info, what do annuals for Apaches and Travel Airs tend to look like. I was roughly estimating 5k, but not sure if that is low or high?
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I do 100-hours on my Aztec, and we do them as an annual, and at this point we've done 5 in the time period I've owned the plane.

They've ranged anywhere from about $1500 to $10,000. The former was one when the only things wrong were a few minor squawks and needed a rebuilt mag. The latter was when I needed 6 new cylinders (my left engine came with Superiors), a new hydraulic pump, and a new fuel pump. I'd say an average cost has been about $4000. If you budget $5000 every 100 hours, that will probably cover most incidentals. I also am of the mindset that if something needs fixed, I fix it. There may be minor "round tuit" things that sit for a bit, but I normally don't let anything that needs attention fly like that for very long. I go through hours quickly enough that every 100 hours makes for a reasonable time period between maintenance intervals. At 50 hours we do oil changes.

For what it's worth, from your description I'd agree that you're better off not buying a twin. Get your multi rating and look for time building opportunities, they can only help.
 
Multi time building is available at Fort Lauderdale Executive.(KFXE) With prior arrangement I can fly evenings or weekends. I recommend getting multi-current first in a local session or two. If you are already current we can fly up the east coast to Virginia and back in a day. Or to New England and back, logging 16-22 hours over two days.

Fuel is the biggest expense these days so trips have to be carefully planned around cheap gas stops. By doing that, it keeps the cost down to $170 to $180 per hour at today's gas prices. If fuel goes up, obviously the price will too. It's the least expensive multi time around and you aren't splitting the time with anyone, so it's real PIC.

I have a training manual for the plane, and I can develop something personalized if you need recent experience for Part 135 or Part 121 job interviews.

You are the PIC, left seat, or right seat if you need to build CFI multi experience. All trips are IFR. Airplane is a Piper Geronimo with Apollo IFR approach certified GPS, Terra Digital radios, PS Engineering stereo intercom system with MP3 & CD players, and XM weather.

I am a 4500+ hour CFI, MEI, A&P/IA with over 3000 multi hours in twins ranging from the Apache & Aztec, to Beech King Airs, all the way up to the Cheyenne 400LS. Of all of them, the hardest plane to fly is a piston twin because there's a lot to do and not as much power as you'd like, compared to turbine airplanes.

Candidates must have a current FAA medical, private multi or better, with instrument rating.

The airplane is a Piper Apache with the Geronimo mods, digital radios & IFR approach GPS. You can log it all as dual received, or you can have me sign your log book as a safety pilot if you don't want to log it all as instruction, but want a witness to validate your hours. Either way, you are the PIC and are logging real PIC time. The airplane is privately owned.

For comparison, you can go to ATP for time building. They have a 65 hour package with a safety pilot for $17k, which is $260 an hour: http://www.atpflightschool.com/programs/time-building/

Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to rent a twin anywhere anymore, and when you can, they are $300 an hour or more. It makes it difficult for people to get experience.
 
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