Recommend a goal aircraft.

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Tricorter

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Tricorter
Hi first time poster here.


So I'm just starting my training, with the goal of buying my own plane in a few years. I'm looking for recommendations for an aircraft that'll do the following things:

Travel at a good, 130+Kt, low priority.
Have at least 4 comfortable seats(6 would be stellar), high priority.
At least 800 lb useful load, after the fuel tanks are full. medium priority.
Two doors would be nice, but is not a priority at all.
Operating cost under about $120/hr (obviously the lower the better), high priority.
Upfront cost low, max of about 60-70k

I know I'm asking a lot for this low of a price, but let me know if these are reasonable desires or if they're par for the course. Let me know what you guys/gals recommend.


Thank you ahead of time!
 
PA 24
Maule
Blanca cruisemaster


That's my off the cuff.
 
At least you understand that you're looking for a unicorn. Maybe a Comanche? Don't know if $120 an hour is reasonable for that though.
 
Kansas Flyer said:
At least you understand that you're looking for a unicorn. Maybe a Comanche? Don't know if $120 an hour is reasonable for that though.
Click to expand...
What should I adjust for my expectations? That will be very valuable input for me.
 
Tricorter said:
What should I adjust for my expectations? That will be very valuable input for me.
Click to expand...

800 lbs with full fuel means a six seater in all likelyhood. They won’t be that cheap. You can go that fast or faster at that price with say a Mooney m20c, but won’t carry that much full fuel. Remember though efficiency = payload, in terms of fuel not carried, this can be significant.

I would state your requirement this way:

Payload, leg length, operating cost, acquisition cost

Full fuel payload meaningless - my Mooney can go 1400 nautical miles on 100 gallons, leaving me 400lbs for payload. But I can carry 800lbs pretty far.


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Not a unicorn at all, PA24 Comanche would do that just fine with 4 seats.

Fuel wise you need to state range not just full tanks, most tanks will fly you longer than you're going to want to sit anyways.
 
74/75 Cessna cardinal gets the 800, four seats, reasonable operating cost, closer to 120 knots in retractable version.
 
gsengle said:
800 lbs with full fuel means a six seater in all likelyhood. They won’t be that cheap. You can go that fast or faster at that price with say a Mooney m20c, but won’t carry that much full fuel. Remember though efficiency = payload, in terms of fuel not carried, this can be significant.

I would state your requirement this way:

Payload, leg length, operating cost, acquisition cost

Full fuel payload meaningless - my Mooney can go 1400 nautical miles on 100 gallons, leaving me 400lbs for payload. But I can carry 800lbs pretty far.
Click to expand...


Thanks,
So more appropriately,
Payload has to be about 600, as anyone that I will haul +bags can easily weigh that much.
Range would be about 5-600 miles in ~5-hours
Cost no more than about 120 bucks an hour and no more than about 60K to buy.

EDITS: several for grammar and to make it clearer.
 
Tricorter said:
Hi first time poster here.


So I'm just starting my training, with the goal of buying my own plane in a few years. I'm looking for recommendations for an aircraft that'll do the following things:

Travel at a good, 130+Kt, low priority.
Have at least 4 comfortable seats(6 would be stellar), high priority.
At least 800 lb useful load, after the fuel tanks are full. medium priority.
Two doors would be nice, but is not a priority at all.
Operating cost under about $120/hr (obviously the lower the better), high priority.
Upfront cost low, max of about 60-70k

I know I'm asking a lot for this low of a price, but let me know if these are reasonable desires or if they're par for the course. Let me know what you guys/gals recommend.


Thank you ahead of time!
Click to expand...

Here are the specs for our club 182RG

Gross: 3100 lb
Empty: 1700 lb
Fuel: 88 gal
Remaining Useful load: 850 lb
Cruise: 155 knots
Cost: $120/hr

I believe you can get an old aircraft it for under $100k
 
sarangan said:
Here are the specs for our club 182RG

Gross: 3100 lb
Empty: 1700 lb
Fuel: 88 gal
Remaining Useful load: 850 lb
Cruise: 155 knots
Cost: $120/hr

I believe you can get an old aircraft it for under $100k
Click to expand...
Comanche numbers are close to that with tip tanks. Gross is 3000 though. Range is in the 900 mile range when leaned properly.
 
Tricorter said:
Thanks,
So more appropriately,
Payload has to be about 600, as anyone that I will haul +bags can easily weigh that much.
Range would be about 5-600 miles in ~5-hours
Cost no more than about 120 bucks an hour and no more than about 60K to buy.

EDITS: several for grammar and to make it clearer.
Click to expand...

My guess is most early Mooney’s will do that at that price and cost, quicker. Might be snug for 4...


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Comanche was my vote too
 
gsengle said:
My guess is most early Mooney’s will do that at that price and cost, quicker. Might be snug for 4...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
1200 useful load on an early Mooney?
 
EdFred said:
1200 useful load on an early Mooney?

He wants 600 payload with topped tanks.
Click to expand...

Read his amendment, he wants to go 500 miles with 600lbs of payload. Full tanks is irrelevant.


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Might be able to find a Cherokee 6/300 for that budget but I don’t know what the operating costs are.
 
Obvious answer on POA is a Bo. But a Grumman Tiger may be a candidate if the pax are not too large.
 
Tricorter said:
Thanks,
So more appropriately,
Payload has to be about 600, as anyone that I will haul +bags can easily weigh that much.
Range would be about 5-600 miles in ~5-hours
Cost no more than about 120 bucks an hour and no more than about 60K to buy.

EDITS: several for grammar and to make it clearer.
Click to expand...

A Grumman Tiger ticks these boxes.
 
First thing that comes to mind was an older BO, or a Comanche. Both fit your bill


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P or Q model 182s fit the bill, except for 6 seats. They are eligible for 3,100 lb MGTOW STC, paperwork only, just like the R models, just need to land <2,950 lbs. Our well-equipped 182Q has a payload of about 812 lbs with full fuel (which is 75 gallons, or about 5.5 hrs worth).
 
Tricorter said:
I'm looking for recommendations for an aircraft that'll do the following things:

Travel at a good, 130+Kt, low priority.
Have at least 4 comfortable seats(6 would be stellar), high priority.
At least 800 lb useful load, after the fuel tanks are full. medium priority.
Two doors would be nice, but is not a priority at all.
Operating cost under about $120/hr (obviously the lower the better), high priority.
Upfront cost low, max of about 60-70k

I know I'm asking a lot for this low of a price!
Click to expand...

Yes, I read post 10 with the updates.

Can you think a little differently about this? In your mind today, what do you envision the most of your flying to be?

-Four to six “comfortable” seats is subjective. An A35/A36 Bonanza could meet that spec, but your budget is out the window.

Routine weekend trips with your spouse and 2 kids to the grandparents place 600NM away?

- A 150 knot plane makes this a four hour trip, nonstop. Is it realistic that your pax have a 4+30 bladder? If not, what’s realistic? A compromise in your longest leg can open some possibilities, but the trade off is a four hour non-stop turns into five hours.

Staying current and proficient has to be incorporated into the equation as well. Lots of that may be just you or you+1.

- Do you think you’ll be able to average 2-3 hrs/week in the air. That’s 100 - 150 hours/year, which many believe to be the break point for ownership over renting.

Would you consider a partnership or club arrangement that may save cost?
 
Tricorter said:
Thanks,
So more appropriately,
Payload has to be about 600, as anyone that I will haul +bags can easily weigh that much.
Range would be about 5-600 miles in ~5-hours
Cost no more than about 120 bucks an hour and no more than about 60K to buy.

EDITS: several for grammar and to make it clearer.
Click to expand...

Realistically, my Mooney M20-C will do this:
Gross 2575
Empty 1607
Useful = 968 lb.
Fuel burn = 9 gph @ 140-145 KTAS
500 nm => 32 gal + 1 hr = 41 gal, 246 lb.
600 nm => 38 gal + 1 hr = 47 gal, 282 lb.
Full fuel = 52 gal, 312 lb. (good for 5-1/2 hours)
500 nm Load = 968 - 246 = 722 lb.
600 nm Load = 968 - 282 = 686 lb.

But it's not the best for multihour, 4-person trips . . . . The "+1 hour is Fuel Reserve," not planned for flight. I've gone over 4-1/2 hours twice, refilling with 41 & 42 gallons, leaving 1:15 in the tanks, my 1 hr reserve plus a bit.

M20-F models have more backseat and baggage space, run a few knots faster, and can run Lean of Peak for reduced fuel burn (same speed as my C but lower fuel burn!). Some have Useful Loads approaching 1100 lb. and they can carry 64 gal. (often enough for 7 hours' flight, way more than this trip requires). Just swap fuel for passengers and baggage . . . .

Or make a pit stop around 3 hours, stand up, walk around, gas up the plane and hit the restroom. That will open up more possibilities, but will stretch overall travel time.

Both C and F model Mooneys are available in your price range, well equipped and in good shape.

Happy hunting! Whatever you get serious about, have someone knowledgable about that particular aircraft type inspect it to make sure it's in good shape.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I love Comanches, but $120/hr? Including maintenance? Not buyin' that.
Click to expand...

Depending on power figure 11GPH

$5gal
That’s
$55hr in fuel, old rule of thumb is times fuel by two for operating expense, so $110 hr

Personally I just figure fuel burn and fix anything that comes up that needs fixing, never bought into that reserve nonsense.

But shy of buying sight unseen without a prebuy, or something crazy, you shouldn’t be spending over $120hr to fly a pretty simple 180hp airplane that you own.
 
James331 said:
Depending on power figure 11GPH

$5gal
That’s
$55hr in fuel, old rule of thumb is times fuel by two for operating expense, so $110 hr

Personally I just figure fuel burn and fix anything that comes up that needs fixing, never bought into that reserve nonsense.
Click to expand...

Even if you don't put it into an actual reserve fund - And I don't either - The airplane will cost you $$ over time.

I can see the Comanche costing $120/hr plus a couple grand for the annual each year, plus an occasional 4-figure surprise plus an engine overhaul eventually... But if all the OP can do is $120/hr, then the Comanche isn't likely the right bird.
 
I plan on $65/hr for fuel and oil in mine (though, I'm usually less than that - closer to $50). Don't do an engine reserve thing. Could blow up tomorrow, could last 3000 more hours. How do you even amortize such a wide delta?
But using the high $65/hr fuel burn and amortizing the annual (I had an ouch annual this year) and hangar and insurance over the 80ish hours I flew last year, I was at $152/hr. Had I flown it 100 hours, had a normal annual, and figure around $55 for fuel which is probably closer to reality, I would have been at around $105 an hour including the hangar and insurance.
 
Tricorter said:
Hi first time poster here.
Travel at a good, 130+Kt, low priority.
Have at least 4 comfortable seats(6 would be stellar), high priority.
At least 800 lb useful load, after the fuel tanks are full. medium priority.
Two doors would be nice but is not a priority at all.
Operating cost under about $120/hr (obviously the lower the better), high priority.
Upfront cost low, max of about 60-70k
Click to expand...

If you flex on the cruise speed (which you specifically mentioned is low-priority) and pick up a tailwheel endorsement. A Stinson 108-3 will carry 780lbs with full (50gal) full. That's more than enough to make any 4 people hate each other after 5 hours (with VFR reserve still in the tank). Operating costs would easily fit in your envelope, even with 9gal/hour Avgas (though the Franklins are reported to run better on Unleaded). And they can be purchased for about 1/2 of your upfront budget.
 
benyflyguy said:
Might be able to find a Cherokee 6/300 for that budget but I don’t know what the operating costs are.
Click to expand...
I looked into those, they're super sweet, and the cheapest one is at the top of my price range, which means "technically" in there, but too close for comfort.
 
TCABM said:
Yes, I read post 10 with the updates.

Can you think a little differently about this? In your mind today, what do you envision the most of your flying to be?

-Four to six “comfortable” seats is subjective. An A35/A36 Bonanza could meet that spec, but your budget is out the window.

Routine weekend trips with your spouse and 2 kids to the grandparents place 600NM away?

- A 150 knot plane makes this a four hour trip, nonstop. Is it realistic that your pax have a 4+30 bladder? If not, what’s realistic? A compromise in your longest leg can open some possibilities, but the trade off is a four hour non-stop turns into five hours.

Staying current and proficient has to be incorporated into the equation as well. Lots of that may be just you or you+1.

- Do you think you’ll be able to average 2-3 hrs/week in the air. That’s 100 - 150 hours/year, which many believe to be the break point for ownership over renting.

Would you consider a partnership or club arrangement that may save cost


I have already factored much of this in, my wife wants me to have at least a year in the thing before she'll get in it with me (not exactly a bad thing). I'm planning on about 150-200 hours a year, as trips to Florida from upstate NY will be about a quarterly thing. With me, the wife, and the parents in law, so four comfortable adult sized seats is a must have for now, then when kids come the in laws will either drive or fly themselves commercially. I'm thinking a 4 hour bladder is about the most I can hope for with kids. So that's where that goal came from, if it's worse then the legs get shorter, so NBD. Also, my work schedule gives me 8 days off every month in a row, and switching from days to nights I generally get at least 3 days between blocks. I plan on being in the air doing fly ins or just doing the "hundred dollar hamburger" during those breaks.
I'm looking hard at the Cherokee sixes, as they seem to be in my range, and do everything I want, but the problem is they're at the very top of my price range even for the cheapest ones. Realistically speaking this means I probably shouldn't go for that particular one. If I plan on waiting another 2-3 years I could conceivably make it happen, but during that time I'm renting from my flying club, which is is reasonable. But I'd rather be putting the time in my own plane, then sell to raise the cash to buy the nicer one.

Thank you very much for your insight.
Click to expand...
 
ktup-flyer said:
Well it says that my plane burns 16gph lol. Roughly close I guess
Click to expand...
Thanks, I've been using it as a guestimator to figure out what's actually in my price range and what's not. Trying to narrow the field as much as possible as quickly as possible. That way I can start actually looking, and for motivation to save my pennies.
 
Bonanza. Many of the older models would fit your mission profile easily and is the standard POA answer to every “what plane should I buy” thread.
 
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