Real canyon turn in Idaho.

[motoadve]

This canyon turns were in my last Idaho trip, I left my cameraman at the airstrip I just landed, so took off to come back again for him to make video.
So fly out in a canyon and as soon as I saw was convenient to make the turn, I did it ,wanted to make them tight to have margin,
This video is showing the very first time Im turing in this canyons, wanted to make them tight and not have the stall warning going off, it felt more comfortable that way, canyons look smaller when you are trying to make the turns inside them.

 

[CC268]

Very cool!

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

That's timely! I just returned from an Idaho trip where the hired pilot did one at 250' above the river in a deep canyon near Lower Loon Creek just after we entered the lowering cloud deck. He could still see the river straight down, but we lost sight of the canyon walls.

 

[Stewartb]

During BFRs or training my instructors call them face benders. Slow to 70 @ 2 notches of flaps, go to 45-50* and full power, pull full flaps, and pull on the yoke. Fun in clear weather but in poor vis it'll get your attention.

They're important when flying the coast, too. When vis goes bad you turn toward the mountains so you maintain visual contact with land. If you turn toward the sea you go IFR.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

Nice. Too bad Corey Lidle didn't practice a few of those before the untimely encounter with a New York high rise.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I don't think I should always go full flaps. I want the plane to be clean as possible for minimum drag. I suppose I could try it both ways- full and clean. It may depend on the plane. My plane climbs best at clean. I can tell you I was in a box canyon and had to to do a U turn when it was hot, we were heavy, and I did it full power (lean it for max rpm, it was high altitude Idaho wilderness). I had enough canyon so it wasnt necessary to turn real sharp. What was hard was holding altitude (there were downdrafts). We made it but I couldnt climb much and held it right at Vy, because Vx gave me no climb at all. I also held Vy because I was turning. So I didnt have much to spare.

Real Canyon turns are all different, depending on the canyon. Ive never flown into a canyon that was so narrow I could do a fairly normal U turn and dont intend to. Real sharp turns are likely to lose altitude. The problem I had in this one was I was fairly close to the trees so whatever I did, I didnt want to lose altitude!

Just my one experience, for what its worth.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Cory Lidle's mistake was he turned with the wind instead of into it.

 

[Stewartb]

I don't think "always" works for anything other than death and taxes. The idea is to make a 180* minimum radius turn without losing altitude. After all, canyons get narrower as you go down, right? Some will say a climbing turn makes more sense but in the real world the reason we do canyon turns is usually related to bad visibility suddenly getting worse, and going up usually isn't a solution. We fly along one side of a pass depending on the shape of the pass and have the airplane slowed with a couple of notches of flaps out in case we need to reverse course. The key to successful escape turns is in the preparation.

 

[steingar]

Bleech. You guys can have your rocks, they make weather and eat airplanes. Nobody likes the flat as a pancake place where I live except me. No rocks to hit.

They sure are pretty, though.

 

[coloradobluesky]

In that Idaho wilderness where all those wilderness airstrips are, you run into hot, heavy and high a LOT! And there are canyons that appear to take you to your destination, that end or are so steep you can't outclimb them. So you are dealing with poor aircraft performance. And those canyons have downdrafts (and updrafts). But the downdrafts seem to always be where you are. The updrafts are over there somewhere else...maybe. They say don't fly there on hot summer afternoons. But it seems like thats always when pilots arrive. When its hot and bumpy....

It depends.

 

[NoHeat]

180* minimum radius turn without losing altitude.

In that video, the vertical speed was -1200 fpm in the first turn, and -1700 fpm in the second one. A gradual climb going into the turn, maybe getting close to a stall. But then a lot of altitude lost in the turn, and I don't see how it could be any different going so slow and banking 45* or more.

 

[Stewartb]

Then perhaps you should go get some training? Alaska has lots of mountains. Passes and coastal. Mountain flying training is SOP. Every BFR ride I've done has included face benders and that's been with several different instructor pilots. They all require the same thing. Minimum radius, maintain altitude.

 

[Clark1961]

Bleech. You guys can have your rocks, they make weather and eat airplanes. Nobody likes the flat as a pancake place where I live except me. No rocks to hit.

They sure are pretty, though.

No rocks but youse guys have towers....okay, so we ave some of those too.

Okay, just stay above the rocks, not down amongst them....and never ever fly up a canyon. I don't care if you know your aircraft has the performance to climb. Circle until you have altitude then proceed to destination above the rocks. And if you are trying to squeeze through underneath an overcast, well good luck then. Everyone is entitled to choose poorly.

 

[steingar]

No rocks but youse guys have towers....okay, so we ave some of those too.

Youse guyz have towers on rocks, even worser.

Okay, just stay above the rocks, not down amongst them....and never ever fly up a canyon. I don't care if you know your aircraft has the performance to climb. Circle until you have altitude then proceed to destination above the rocks. And if you are trying to squeeze through underneath an overcast, well good luck then. Everyone is entitled to choose poorly.

No canyons to fly up in flatistan. But I think it lots easier to turn in one of those things in a pokey old Skylane (especially when it has some of the stuff listed in that video) than a go fast airplane. One of the more frightening experiences I've had was transiting the mountains of Georgia under and overcast. Doing it in a Cherokee was no big deal. In a Mooney...they don't exactly do slow very well.

 

[asicer]

Cory Lidle's mistake was he turned with the wind instead of into it.

That's not the only mistake. Another was thinking that ticket was more important than skin or tin (um, er, fiberglass?). And it might be more accurate to say that it was the CFI's mistake.

 

[denverpilot]

Youse guyz have towers on rocks, even worser.

Actually it's really rare to see anything much taller than 100' placed on a mountain. Definitely no 1000'ers like the flatlanders have. Those things often have man cage elevators.

Tower climbers are lazy and line of sight is wicked from the top of the rock the towers are on. Plus wind load. Wind at the top of a rock in winter often exceeds 100 MPH and a tall tower would just buckle and collapse, even solidly guyed.

Most of the mountain towers I've climbed to work on stuff were freestanding designs. Guy wires are a PITA when all the anchors have to be blasted into rocks with explosives or they have to go off some direction downhill at crazy angles.

Getting the concrete trucks up there to pour the bases is usually the hardest part of the construction project if the tower gets too big. The concrete was mixed many many miles away and you have a time limit and the truck gets stuck on the steep Forest Service dirt road -- you're screwed. Real bad.

One of our sites we have gear on, has so many hairpin turns that require a two point turn in a long bed pickup truck that you get sick of doing them going up and coming down. And that's only possible during four months of the year when the road is passable. Any other time, it's hike in or bring a snow machine.

The view from the top of the tower is incredible though. Tower site is at 11,440' and then another 80' up the tower. Worth a pause for a break after climbing it, both to catch your breath and to enjoy the view for a minute.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I notice much of the flying to get to our ID destination was dozens of feet from the canyon walls, in case that canyon turn was needed (it was needed - weather).
Here is our arrival at Upper Loon last week the morning after, when the weather cleared:

 

[Zeldman]

Then perhaps you should go get some training? Alaska has lots of mountains. Passes and coastal. Mountain flying training is SOP. Every BFR ride I've done has included face benders and that's been with several different instructor pilots. They all require the same thing. Minimum radius, maintain altitude.

That's what I was taught, maintain altitude during the 180 because usually there will be clouds above, and rocks below. Especially do not lose altitude in winter where everything is the same color.

I have done a few canyon turns because I turned into a boxed canyon instead of the pass. I have flown coastlines hugging the rocks so I would not lose visual reference to the mountains.

In a C-207 with full flaps, 45 to 50 degree bank it almost appears the plane is pivoting on the wing tip. It will turn around in a very short radius.

Just another day at work....

 

[coloradobluesky]

What you want to do is, turn, don't stall, and don't run into the wall.

Question: Is Vx the same speed when you are turning as going straight?

All I want to point out is there is a tradeoff between climb rate and radius of turn. Less climb rate, more need for tighter turn due to narrower canyon wall down low. More climb rate, you are higher in the canyon and dont need such a tight turn (because canyon is TYPICALLY wider above). Thats why it can depend.

That loon canyon turn looked pretty tight yes. You did with room to spare. Gotta have room to spare. Good job!

 

[denverpilot]

I notice much of the flying to get to our ID destination was dozens of feet from the canyon walls, in case that canyon turn was needed (it was needed - weather).
Here is our arrival at Upper Loon last week the morning after, when the weather cleared:

Nice job staying to the right, right up against the mountain before the turn. Have seen some YT videos of folks landing there who are dead (literally if the performance goes to crap) center in the canyon before hanging the left there.

Once you turn, your options for an out disappear until you're in power off gliding distance of the strip, but you're not too long in that position. Managed risk.

People get really nervous the first time they're in the rocks and the instructor says to get one or the other wingtip tucked right up against that mountain on one side or the other. There's almost never a good time or reason to be in the middle of the canyon or valley.

I don't have a bucket list, but if I did, Idaho backcountry strips would be on it.