Re-take on Flight Portion of IFR Checkride

[av8tr24]

Some of you may remember, but I posted about a month ago about failing my IFR checkride at the end of August. Would have gotten it finished sooner, but the DPE was out of town for a couple weeks, then there was some FAA conference last week. I've flown with my instructor multiple times in the past month, and we've pretty much covered everything and I feel comfortable and ready.

Just last night, I got a call from the owner of the flying club I'm in, saying that the DPE called and wanted me to do my ride this morning at 9AM. That's right, he called late last night and wanted to fly this morning. The owner told him that wasn't acceptable, but that he would check with me. I pretty much laughed when he told me and said the guy must think I sit around and do nothing. Much less work a full time job, and own a photography studio.

Back to the first ride...the more I've thought about it, the more I want to find another DPE for my commercial. This guy was a jerk the first time. For example, during the oral, if I didn't give him the answer he was looking for, he would look at me, cross his arms, lean back in the chair, shake his head, and smirk. I mean really? I'm not a child, and I understand it's a checkride and the DPE isn't there to be your best friend, but isn't some professionalism in order? His tone and the manner in which he spoke was pretty rude and unprofessional as well. I know most of these guys could care less about what they do.

When I got my PPL in GA (Dublin), the examiner was great. Everyone told me he would "yell at you like he's your grandfather", and that was so accurate. He never made me feel stupid or inadequate though. When I didn't give him the answer he was looking for, he didn't make me feel like a complete idiot.

Am I off base? Is it to much to ask for a DPE to be strictly business, professional, and at least somewhat courteous? Trust me, it's not the first time I've heard of DPE's being awful. I just had a conversation with someone the other day who knows a DPE, went along on a ride, and told him after that he was just downright mean to the applicant. I thought that was great!!

Also, it seems like my flying club has used this DPE forever. Literally. How would you all suggest I go about finding another, and telling them I won't fly with this guy again. I plan to ask around and see who is recommended and who isn't. I'm not thrilled at the idea of giving this guy another $450 (incentive to pass for sure this time!)

 

[flyingron]

DPEs are a business. You owe this guy no allegiance. Vote with your feet. It's only the feudalistic designation process that probably allows clowns like this to exist.

 

[James331]

Tell the club, ask around for who other folks recommend. There is a list on the FAAs site, but without knowing the DPEs you might just end up with another dud.

 

[Sam D]

I switched DPEs before a retake of my instrument ride and it was fine. I was fully prepared to repeat the whole ride (including oral), but the new DPE only had me repeat the discontinuance part.

 

[frfly172]

Change DPEs ,you are the customer,most DPEs will do a retest at no charge if it's not the whole ride over. Talk to the new DPE before the test to see what they expect.

 

[DJTorrente]

I'm not thrilled at the idea of giving this guy another $450 (incentive to pass for sure this time!)

Since you have to pay again anyway, why not pay someone you're actually looking forward to working/flying with?

 

[rbridges]

When I got my PPL in GA (Dublin), the examiner was great. Everyone told me he would "yell at you like he's your grandfather", and that was so accurate. He never made me feel stupid or inadequate though. When I didn't give him the answer he was looking for, he didn't make me feel like a complete idiot.

I had him for my Instrument checkride. He definitely isn't the friendliest examiner, but I would have to say he's fair. I was so mentally fatigued after that ride.

 

[EppyGA]

When I got my PPL in GA (Dublin), the examiner was great. Everyone told me he would "yell at you like he's your grandfather", and that was so accurate. He never made me feel stupid or inadequate though. When I didn't give him the answer he was looking for, he didn't make me feel like a complete idiot.

Myself and a friend both took our IA rides with Fred. Interesting guy to say the least.

Small world story.

It's been 2+ years since that ride and my wife and I were on an Alaskan cruise this July. I kept seeing this guy and thinking I knew him from somewhere but just wasn't able to place hm. We were on the bus heading back to the airport after the cruise when it suddenly hit me.....It was Fred.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have a list of examiners I like to use. I have another list of examiners to whom I don't send my trainees. It ain't personal, it's just business. If you don't like working with this guy, find someone else with whom you do like working.

 

[av8tr24]

Myself and a friend both took our IA rides with Fred. Interesting guy to say the least.

Small world story.

It's been 2+ years since that ride and my wife and I were on an Alaskan cruise this July. I kept seeing this guy and thinking I knew him from somewhere but just wasn't able to place hm. We were on the bus heading back to the airport after the cruise when it suddenly hit me.....It was Fred.

Wow! Small world for sure! Fred is an interesting guy, but I kind of appreciate his "no nonsense" approach to things after flying with this dud of an examiner.

I know someone here locally who owns an aviation consulting firm, and he recommended an examiner and said to make sure I mention that I was referred by him. Steve Clegg is the examiners name. Anyone know anything about him, or flown with him?

 

[av8tr24]

I had him for my Instrument checkride. He definitely isn't the friendliest examiner, but I would have to say he's fair. I was so mentally fatigued after that ride.

SAME HERE! My brain was absolutely fried. I asked my instructor to fly back to KSAV, because I literally could not think or focus on anything.

 

[dtuuri]

Some of you may remember, but I posted about a month ago about failing my IFR checkride at the end of August. ...the more I've thought about it, the more I want to find another DPE for my commercial. This guy was a jerk the first time.

...

Am I off base?

Probably. I went back and read your writeup. You seem to be typical of a lot of people when taking practical tests: You take them when you really aren't ready (and deep down you know it), so your nervousness causes you to become confused, jump to conclusions, forget things and make careless mistakes. You mentioned how nervous you had been for the PPL test and how poorly you had performed the day before the IFR test. The pink slip was predictable.

After the bust, you said this about the same examiner you now want to dismiss:

"The DPE was very gracious in explaining everything to me and making sure I understood my mistakes."​

Face it, if you're well enough prepared you can suffer through an unpleasant examiner's demeanor long enough to get your rating. Once you pass, next time go somewhere else if you want. In this case, I think the big problem was you. You simply took the test too soon.

dtuuri

 

[av8tr24]

Probably. I went back and read your writeup. You seem to be typical of a lot of people when taking practical tests: You take them when you really aren't ready (and deep down you know it), so your nervousness causes you to become confused, jump to conclusions, forget things and make careless mistakes. You mentioned how nervous you had been for the PPL test and how poorly you had performed the day before the IFR test. The pink slip was predictable.

After the bust, you said this about the same examiner you now want to dismiss:

"The DPE was very gracious in explaining everything to me and making sure I understood my mistakes."​

Face it, if you're well enough prepared you can suffer through an unpleasant examiner's demeanor long enough to get your rating. Once you pass, next time go somewhere else if you want. In this case, I think the big problem was you. You simply took the test too soon.

dtuuri

Thanks for your comments, but I didn't take the test too soon. My instructor signed me off because we both felt I was ready. Obviously, things didn't go as well as I had hoped or planned.

I absolutely hate these tests, and I don't know anyone who likes or enjoys them. It's natural to have some anxiety when taking any test. I made one careless mistake that snowballed into multiple others. The examiners attitude during the oral and flight was not professional, and he acted annoyed and frustrated the whole time. While I will accept responsibility for my mistakes, learn from it and move on, I will not put up with an attitude from a DPE. Especially when you're paying them $450-$500.

On another note, I had my ride scheduled for Monday, he called and cancelled on me this morning....unbelievable. Tried to switch it to another day that didn't work for me, but ended finding a time that works on Wednesday. I'm not impressed with the lack of professionalism, and I will find someone else for sure.

 

[dtuuri]

While I will accept responsibility for my mistakes, learn from it and move on, I will not put up with an attitude from a DPE. Especially when you're paying them $450-$500.

I can't explain why the rate is that high. When I was a DPE it was much, much lower and really not worth my time. I got out when the Clinton administration began charging us for recurrent training. Didn't seem right for me to have to pay for something they both require and set the price for.

Having been a DPE my sympathies go first to them instead of the applicants. Usually they do this as a sideline because there isn't enough demand for the service full time. Your DPE seems to be willing to squeeze you into his schedule, but his main job takes precedence. You could possibly find a school examiner who does nothing else, but you might have even more trouble scheduling there. I can't tell where you're based, Georgia or DAB. Daytona has plenty of schools.

I can say this, from a DPE's point of view, they really want to have you do well. When you aren't, it dismays them as much as it does you. Some people are naturally more expressive in their body language than poker-faced. My take is, his body language was the result of the conflict between your performance and his desire for you to do better. Had you been better prepared (you have taken responsibility) the body language would have been less annoying or nonexistent.
EDIT: Or the examiner may have turned into an enthusiastic cheer-leader!
Anyway, good luck next time, but don't go unless you absolutely know you can handle anything thrown at you.

dtuuri

 

[flyingron]

I can explain why the rate is so high. It's because DPE designations are practically political appointments handed out to the good old boys with connections to the various FSDOs rather than establishing strict qualifications and allowing a free market to prevail. It's also why complete and udder idiots and jerks manage to still get business (they're often the only game in town).

 

[dtuuri]

I can explain why the rate is so high. It's because DPE designations are practically political appointments handed out to the good old boys with connections to the various FSDOs rather than establishing strict qualifications and allowing a free market to prevail. It's also why complete and udder idiots and jerks manage to still get business (they're often the only game in town).

That's the cynical explanation. Was probably more true in the 1980s when I got mine than since I turned it in. I understand they've changed the process considerably. Back in 1986 (my date of entry) if the FAA had to go looking for someone to fill a need, they'd certainly call people they already vetted through personal experience. In my case, though, they didn't know me from Adam. There was a resignation in the area, so I contacted them and stayed persistent. They decided not to replace the DPE because there was still another fairly close by. Then he resigned too. By then they'd met me and approved of me, so I was an instant solution to an unforseen problem. In other words, just like getting a job just about anywhere else. Now that the process is more, uh, democratic, the cost of the test is higher. Go figure.

dtuuri

 

[MikeELP]

... It's also why complete and udder idiots and jerks manage to still get business (they're often the only game in town).

I know a number of DPEs. None of them have udders. And NONE of them were "political appointees".

Since you've beaten this drum before, you must have some kind of burr up your backside against DPEs. Maybe you had bad checkrides?

As a CFI, I have a great deal of respect for the two DPEs we have here in El Paso and others I have met. Sorry that you've had bad experiences.



Mike

 

[GCA319]

I know a number of DPEs. None of them have udders. And NONE of them were "political appointees".

Since you've beaten this drum before, you must have some kind of burr up your backside against DPEs. Maybe you had bad checkrides?

As a CFI, I have a great deal of respect for the two DPEs we have here in El Paso and others I have met. Sorry that you've had bad experiences.



Mike

I know quite a few as well (including a few in the ABQ FSDO district) both as an applicant and a recommending instructor. For the most part, I have nothing but respect for their experience and qualifications and wouldn't consider any of the DE's I know politically shady in any way.

 

[Ghery]

Since you've beaten this drum before, you must have some kind of burr up your backside against DPEs. Maybe you had bad checkrides?

As a CFI, I have a great deal of respect for the two DPEs we have here in El Paso and others I have met. Sorry that you've had bad experiences.



Mike

I've only taken two rides, PP and IR. And the IR took two tries. Do I hold that against the DPE? No, he busted me the first time fair and square. I got too low on a non-precision approach. Cost me his fee for a re-try (fortunately, less than the initial ride). Would I recommend him to someone going for their IR? You bet. And the DPE for my PP ride back in 2001 was fair, as well. No complaints from me.

 

[bobmrg]

That's the cynical explanation. Was probably more true in the 1980s when I got mine than since I turned it in. I understand they've changed the process considerably. Back in 1986 (my date of entry) if the FAA had to go looking for someone to fill a need, they'd certainly call people they already vetted through personal experience. In my case, though, they didn't know me from Adam. There was a resignation in the area, so I contacted them and stayed persistent. They decided not to replace the DPE because there was still another fairly close by. Then he resigned too. By then they'd met me and approved of me, so I was an instant solution to an unforseen problem. In other words, just like getting a job just about anywhere else. Now that the process is more, uh, democratic, the cost of the test is higher. Go figure.

dtuuri

In my case, the FBO had five branches around Puget Sound during the GI Bill days, and the FSDO needed a DE to cover applicants from three of them. They came to my boss for a recommendation, he named me, and the rest is history (so is the FBO).

Bob Gardner

 

[av8tr24]

Well, I am taking my ride tomorrow morning at 9AM EST! Will report back! Went up Sunday and yesterday with my instructor and flew everything spot on to PTS standards! So much so that he said we didn't need to fly today! Wishing today was Wed, as I REALLY want this to be over!

 

[flyingron]

Since you've beaten this drum before, you must have some kind of burr up your backside against DPEs

No, I have a burr up my backside about the FSDOs and the cronyism designation process. I've never failed (or had a bad experience) with a checkride, though only one of my checkrides was with a DPE. I've had a few friends trying to get designations and watched some good instructors/examiners had them pulled purely because of attitude problems with the FSDO inspectors.

There wouldn't be 90% of the problems people came here to complain about with DPEs if there was a free-market approach to designations. There shouldn't be any of this bogosity even as benign as Dtuuri's case. I can tell you that Dturri's is TAME compared to the issuance and removal of designation in many FSDOs. Set the standards, non-subjective review, etc... and issue them to all who apply and qualify. We'd not be paying $500 for those who won't perform.

 

[RotorAndWing]

No, I have a burr up my backside about the FSDOs and the cronyism designation process. I've never failed (or had a bad experience) with a checkride, though only one of my checkrides was with a DPE. I've had a few friends trying to get designations and watched some good instructors/examiners had them pulled purely because of attitude problems with the FSDO inspectors.

There wouldn't be 90% of the problems people came here to complain about with DPEs if there was a free-market approach to designations. There shouldn't be any of this bogosity even as benign as Dtuuri's case. I can tell you that Dturri's is TAME compared to the issuance and removal of designation in many FSDOs. Set the standards, non-subjective review, etc... and issue them to all who apply and qualify. We'd not be paying $500 for those who won't perform.

 

[dtuuri]

Set the standards, non-subjective review, etc... and issue them to all who apply and qualify.

I don't think you've thought this through enough.

dtuuri

 

[flyingron]

I don't think you've thought this through enough.

dtuuri

I've thought it trough plenty. Why on earth would there be a "subjective" I think we have enough examiners in the area decision point as in your case? Frankly, APPROVE everybody. Let the market drive the rates and if a DPE doesn't feel it's cost effective, he pulls out and lets the price adjust. There's no justifiable reason to have a GOVERNMENT-ENFORCED monopoly (in fact, it probably violates other federal law, not that compliance with the LAW has ever bothered the FAA). Yeah, having 20 DPEs in a major market might make a little more work for the Civil Service FSDO inspector, who might actually have to do something other than telling the recently issued CFI that he was there to (in his exact words) "BOB HOOVER" anybody they felt should be flying.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I've thought it trough plenty. Why on earth would there be a "subjective" I think we have enough examiners in the area decision point as in your case? Frankly, APPROVE everybody. Let the market drive the rates and if a DPE doesn't feel it's cost effective, he pulls out and lets the price adjust. There's no justifiable reason to have a GOVERNMENT-ENFORCED monopoly (in fact, it probably violates other federal law, not that compliance with the LAW has ever bothered the FAA). Yeah, having 20 DPEs in a major market might make a little more work for the Civil Service FSDO inspector, who might actually have to do something other than telling the recently issued CFI that he was there to (in his exact words) "BOB HOOVER" anybody they felt should be flying.

This is getting downright comical...........

 

[flyingron]

This is getting downright comical...........

It would be if it weren't the truth. While I didn't hear the Hoover comment first hand, I know the inspector involved quite well (I was close friends with his parents).

 

[RotorAndWing]

It would be if it weren't the truth. While I didn't hear the Hoover comment first hand, I know the inspector involved quite well (I was close friends with his parents).

There's your story, his story, and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

Since you didn't hear it first hand, it has little credence.

 

[flyingron]

It was told me by a long term friend who had just finished her CFI checkride with him. I have no reason to doubt her (especially knowing the inspector involved).

You're certainly a quick one with even less knowledge of the situation to throw baseless accusations around.

 

[RotorAndWing]

It was told me by a long term friend who had just finished her CFI checkride with him. I have no reason to doubt her (especially knowing the inspector involved).

You're certainly a quick one with even less knowledge of the situation to throw baseless accusations around.

Look who's throwing baseless accusations : " I heard second hand....."

Anyway, I learned after being an Inspector that people will twist stories (especially about Inspectors) and will try to paint them in a bad light, if for no other reason than cheap entertainment.

I did a very mundane ramp inspection on a 172 with a CFI and student. Took all of 5 minutes, quick license check and on my way. That CFI the next day turned me in for "frightening him" and made several accusations. He took his cheap shot, and I'm sure he strutted around the FBO with his " I showed him!" stories. Hell, I bet a few weeks later the story was no where even remotely related to what actually happened.

As far as your rant about DPE selection, well, all I can say is you are clueless to the process.

Anyway, believe what you want.