James_Dean
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Canola vs soy.
[rant]Cage free eggs[rant]
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Canola vs soy.
Who uses which?
James_Dean
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Canola or rapeseed is much more common in Europe.
Gotcha, thought so. Why the choice of soy here?
James_Dean
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Out of my area of experience. Being that canola is also used more in Canada and Soy in SA, I'm going to guess it is a agronomic thing with length of daylight available and/or temp tolerance.
SixPapaCharlie
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Here in the center of the U.S. the room is spinning. Just a little.
SixPapaCharlie
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I wondered who'd be the first to ask
I felt bad after I posted it. I always do my best to avoid using the "go to joke" but I was at a beer garden on my phone and I went there.
True, canola is at higher latitudes than soy, I guess use what is close works; makes sense.
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Snorting his way across the USA
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James_Dean
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The large group of three ponds is the industrial waste and is aerated with about 500 HP of blower. The largest cell is the holding cell and is used to irrigate about 250 acres.
The smaller group of cells is the human waste and is direct discharged into a waterway after treatment period.
Zeldman
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Thanks Eggman,
In this thread I have learned more about chickens and eggs than I ever knew I needed to know.
No offense but the wife and I still eat duck eggs, only because the lady down the road sells them for $1.50/dozen. 25 cents less if we reuse our cartons.
Growing up we took some chicken eggs and put them under Mrs Duck, and took the duck eggs and put them under Mrs Chicken. There was some real confusion when Mrs Chicken took her little "chicks" down next to the pond. She set up a real racket when her little chicks took to the water like.... well..... little ducks.
In this thread I have learned more about chickens and eggs than I ever knew I needed to know.
No offense but the wife and I still eat duck eggs, only because the lady down the road sells them for $1.50/dozen. 25 cents less if we reuse our cartons.
Growing up we took some chicken eggs and put them under Mrs Duck, and took the duck eggs and put them under Mrs Chicken. There was some real confusion when Mrs Chicken took her little "chicks" down next to the pond. She set up a real racket when her little chicks took to the water like.... well..... little ducks.
Thanks Eggman,
In this thread I have learned more about chickens and eggs than I ever knew I needed to know.
No offense but the wife and I still eat duck eggs, only because the lady down the road sells them for $1.50/dozen. 25 cents less if we reuse our cartons.
Growing up we took some chicken eggs and put them under Mrs Duck, and took the duck eggs and put them under Mrs Chicken. There was some real confusion when Mrs Chicken took her little "chicks" down next to the pond. She set up a real racket when her little chicks took to the water like.... well..... little ducks.
In Belgium I was eating fresh goose eggs.
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
Thanks Eggman,
In this thread I have learned more about chickens and eggs than I ever knew I needed to know.
No offense but the wife and I still eat duck eggs, only because the lady down the road sells them for $1.50/dozen. 25 cents less if we reuse our cartons.
Growing up we took some chicken eggs and put them under Mrs Duck, and took the duck eggs and put them under Mrs Chicken. There was some real confusion when Mrs Chicken took her little "chicks" down next to the pond. She set up a real racket when her little chicks took to the water like.... well..... little ducks.
Good deal. At $1.25/dozen she likely isn't covering her cost of feed.
That's what happens when you let them feed in nature and just use a bit of supplement feed, real 'free range' style.
Of course the problem we have is too much population to meet demand like that. I think we can find a controlled flock, free range solution that everyone can agree on in price, production problems, and ethics.
The issue is not so much the one of 90-120 life cycle then going into the pet food market, that's perfectly fine in the natural order. What is mostly in question is the quality of life of the chickens for those 90-120 days; "Do we cause them a life of torture and suffering?" This is the primary issue as I see it. There was an interesting guy on Mary Gross the other day discussing this very thing. He said the chicken is the most prolific animal on the planet and they, and bovines, have been the most abused species by man on the planet.
I think a controlled free range model that maintains defined flocks with indoor and out door habitats where they can have a reasonable mindless life of a chicken with some semblance of autonomy for those 90-120 days with reasonable methods of dealing with the facilities.
The problem doesn't really stem in that we use life, the problem comes in the abusive, thoughtless way we treat life.
James_Dean
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That's what happens when you let them feed in nature and just use a bit of supplement feed, real 'free range' style.
Of course the problem we have is too much population to meet demand like that. I think we can find a controlled flock, free range solution that everyone can agree on in price, production problems, and ethics.
The issue is not so much the one of 90-120 life cycle then going into the pet food market, that's perfectly fine in the natural order. What is mostly in question is the quality of life of the chickens for those 90-120 days; "Do we cause them a life of torture and suffering?" This is the primary issue as I see it. There was an interesting guy on Mary Gross the other day discussing this very thing. He said the chicken is the most prolific animal on the planet and they, and bovines, have been the most abused species by man on the planet.
I think a controlled free range model that maintains defined flocks with indoor and out door habitats where they can have a reasonable mindless life of a chicken with some semblance of autonomy for those 90-120 days with reasonable methods of dealing with the facilities.
The problem doesn't really stem in that we use life, the problem comes in the abusive, thoughtless way we treat life.
Really comes down to balancing the many needs of competing interests, doesn't it?
Your assumption is that "free-range" is optimum, yet initial findings of the CSES study are showing that animal welfare is actually decreased and stress markers in the blood of birds given access to the outside is are actually higher. You ever open an egg with tapeworms inside? Probably not, but that was relatively common in the 1940's. To say nothing of the fact that to convert all the production in the US to free-range would take an area something like the state of Rhode Island to be converted to egg production. Probably not going to happen. Additionally, the environmental and carbon footprint of free range are much higher than conventional production.
Watch the video. We're working on it.
http://www2.sustainableeggcoalition.org/research
Ghery
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This has been a most interesting and educational thread. Thanks for all the postings. My exposure to egg farming dates back to the 1960s when a friend's parents sold eggs to the local stores. Much more limited in scope. I collected eggs for them one day and as I recall there were a whole 10 dozen that I found in the barn.
As far as the taste of eggs is concerned, as long as they haven't been in storage so long that I can taste them through the pancakes, they're OK. Breakfast was an ordeal on Adak when I went there TDY a couple times back in the late 1970s.
As far as the taste of eggs is concerned, as long as they haven't been in storage so long that I can taste them through the pancakes, they're OK. Breakfast was an ordeal on Adak when I went there TDY a couple times back in the late 1970s.
Maybe a "stadium" style enclosed range?
Kind of like a prison with day rooms. It is a lot of competing issues, pretty much everything is, and none of it is particularly simple at this point. I have lived in enough third world settings that there are few things to do with food I haven't experienced. Yeah, I understand fully the need for food safety. Not all stress on a chicken is a bad thing for the chicken, stress is natural process and part of the experience of being alive.
RJM62
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Interesting information. I must admit that I never gave the living conditions of chickens much thought. They could have been raised in a Buick in Hoboken for all I knew.
Rich
Rich
James_Dean
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Maybe a "stadium" style enclosed range?
It is rather simple for me.
1. Let's set a national standard of what we consider the minimum specification.
The United Egg Producers went about forming a scientific consensus on welfare standards around 2000 and then got around 80% of the industry to adopt those guidelines. Then in 2010 - 2011 UEP(representing +85% of the current industry) tried to partner with the HSUS to pass our compromise on enhanced housing standards as federal legislation. Neither side was thrilled with the compromise, but it seemed sustainable. It really was an historic agreement.
http://www.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2011/07/egg_agreement.html
The rest of the livestock industry went crazy and killed the legislation.
2. Let the marketplace sort out any other consumer demands for more exotic products. If there is a market for a particular type of egg the market always responds.
Where we fall apart is when we fail to reach consensus on what the minimum standards are and then let the zealots get define them thereby passing on inordinate costs to all consumers. As an example, you are here advocating a much more stringent standard than even the HSUS was willing to accept. They are not known as a moderate organization.
We have to figure out how to feed +9 billion people. Free-range is a fine choice for those who can afford to pay for lofty ideals(who also are misinformed about what is really best for the animal), but is that really humane for the family who is just trying to eat on a budget?
No doubt it's a critical balance that can only be achieve end through an increase in the industry infrastructure. That's the same problem we face in all of agriculture, energy, and water production. We just refuse to part with imaginary money in order to do it. We have far more than plenty, we just don't place they value there. The egg industry is indicative of the entire problem with the way we treat life, resources, and money. Societally we have that order backwards.
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Snorting his way across the USA
This has been a most interesting and educational thread. Thanks for all the postings. My exposure to egg farming dates back to the 1960s when a friend's parents sold eggs to the local stores. Much more limited in scope. I collected eggs for them one day and as I recall there were a whole 10 dozen that I found in the barn.
As far as the taste of eggs is concerned, as long as they haven't been in storage so long that I can taste them through the pancakes, they're OK. Breakfast was an ordeal on Adak when I went there TDY a couple times back in the late 1970s.
Who would have figured a rant could turn in to an educational thread! Indeed, very interesting information.
James_Dean
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I really don't have any idea what this is supposed to mean.
That facility I showed above is one of the ultimate machines to convert solar energy into a food product that many people really seem to like. The efficiencies are remarkable. We produce more liquid egg per day than we pull water out of the ground. Think about that.
Just because you anthropomorphize the hens and assume their needs are similar to yours is not a reason to deny an incredibly affordable protein to the masses. I always find it ironic that those who seem to identify most with animals care the least about their fellow humans. If my hens aren't happy they aren't productive.
James_Dean
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My Dad started working for an egg company in Iowa when he was 16 doing just that very job. Get 'em from the farmers wives, bring them to town, clean and sort them by hand, and deliver them to Chicago.
He has spent the 50 years since building the better mousetrap and here we are.
RJM62
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I don't mean to trivialize anything you've said because it's very fascinating and makes a lot of sense. But I couldn't help but picture unhappy chickens signing up for the union and staging a work slowdown. It made me chuckle.
Rich
Zeldman
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She is a retired school teacher and owns rental property and is just enjoying life on her small farm. I think all her ducks are named.
Zeldman
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This has been a most interesting and educational thread. Thanks for all the postings. My exposure to egg farming dates back to the 1960s when a friend's parents sold eggs to the local stores. Much more limited in scope. I collected eggs for them one day and as I recall there were a whole 10 dozen that I found in the barn.
As far as the taste of eggs is concerned, as long as they haven't been in storage so long that I can taste them through the pancakes, they're OK. Breakfast was an ordeal on Adak when I went there TDY a couple times back in the late 1970s.
I bet Tobasco Sauce was your best friend..!!!
Clark1961
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any decent pre-processor wouldn't require one
I can't get my head around that, it's amazing. I think this has been the most informative thread I've read in ages. Really interesting.....
Their basic needs are similar. I don't profess to know how much room is enough, and I am personally willing to accept the results of any professional study on the matter. The egg industry probably is doing better than the meat industry at this anyway, and I realize the entire industry does not operate at one level and that many may be operating at a reasonable standard on the animal welfare side, but there are still those who don't.
Clark1961
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ummm, 350,000 gallons of water and 600,000 pounds of liquid egg product....ummm, 2.9 million pounds of water to yield 6 hundred thousand pounds of product....not so remarkable and certainly not in line with your claim...not that egg production isn't a remarkable industry...
pilot_dude
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James - a sincere thank you for the education.
James_Dean
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Doh! Of cousrse you're right. I was thinking about the processing side when I did it in my head while typing. Accept my apology.
BigBadLou
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James, you taught me a lot today, thank you. I always appreciate education.
Now on a slightly lighter note: when is the real chicken & egg debate gonna start, dangit??
Now on a slightly lighter note: when is the real chicken & egg debate gonna start, dangit??
Clark1961
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No apology necessary - I'm just damn engineer who pays too much attention to details. You and your industry produce an amazing volume of quality food at low cost for our nation. I've been using the low/no cholesterol egg stuff for a couple years now. It took my body a bit of time to adjust...
Why? Cholesterol you eat has no bearing on the cholesterol in your blood, and eggs don't really impact cholesterol production. Eggs are nature's perfect food that's why so many animals eat them. Even the medical establishment is finally admitting they got it wrong.
Clark1961
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sure whatever you say
Seriously, it's what my sister did her dissertation on and I was part of the marker trials. Injested, radioactive markered, cholesterol never showed up in the blood stream.