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vkhosid

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Hey guys....was just thinking about my last solo xc, and had a general question come up: What constitutes an "emergency", an "oh ****, I better land now, but not quite an emergency", " mehh, I'll take care of it when I land, and don't need to worry about it until later", etc...situation

Granted, I figure this question is vague and will differ from person to person, and some obvious answers (like the engine stopping) are...well....obvious. But reading various threads and the subsequent responses, it seems like it varies by person. I recall reading responses similar to, "well, the do-hickey didn't work, but I didn't worry about it." Or "it wasn't a problem, the flux capacitor was showing signs of failing, but I just flew it home anyway and will have the mechanic look at it when I get the chance." On the opposite end of the spectrum, I've seen people here respond by saying that they were seconds away from declaring an emergency because the clock in their plane was 45 seconds fast....

I ask this question because (as I said) I recently took a solo xc flight and while on the way back, I noticed the front right cowl (its a cessna 140) rod start to back out and the very front of said cowl was flapping in the wind. I noticed that the rod backed out enough to make contact with the bottom of the windscreen, and wasn't going to back out any further...so I just made the decision to fly back to the airport and tell the instructor about the issue. Obviously nothing serious happened, but it got me thinking whether or not that was a good choice.....

What says you fine people

(I know the text of this question isn't exactly clear, but I can elaborate further if needed).
 
How far were you from your home airport (or any airport) when you noticed?

After you noticed it, did it get worse or stay the same?
 
Departed KSTS and noticed about 15-20 minutes into the flight back to KLVK
 
I wouldn't have declared an emergency with the information given. Flying back and getting on the ground was the right move. When things start falling off the airplane, it is not a great time to be flying.
 
Well, therein lies my concern....at that point, I was essentially guessing that the cowl wouldn't come off the hinge. I couldn't very well get out of the plane and take a look at it...that's the reason for my question.
 
I'm a relative noob and I'm not sure I understand exactly what was happening with the cowling but...

This doesn't sound like an emergency to me. I would not declare mayday, squawk 7700, get on the ground immediately, etc.

Depending on how bad the flutter is, I would consider slowing down a bit. If it gets worse or if I decide that it's bothering me, I'm happy to land somewhere comfortable and take a look. In this case, it looks like you were just a few minutes from Petaluma (O69) which is a pretty straightforward approach and landing.

If I were a student on a solo xc who hadn't landed at O69 before and who wasn't authorized to land there, I might go back to STS. But if the problem is as minor as it sounds, I'm ok pressing on for 45 minutes with giant runways at CCR or OAK available if things get bad.

As to your general question: well, it depends :). If it's not an obvious emergency ("I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to be on fire"), you probably have time to think through the problem and apply your knowledge, experience, and available resources to make a good decision.
 
Yea, the story about the loose cowl was more an anecdote/example of a potential problem. The main purpose of this post was to figure out what people feel is an emergency worth airing over the radio vs a problem that must be remedied immediately without declaring an emergency vs an issue that should be taken care of at the next most convenient time.....makes sense?

I'm interested in hearing more re: this.
 
You'll know a emergency when you see one.
 
For me, the first would be anything that has the potential to cause injury to any person, the second is something that could cause damage to the airplane, and the third is any other nonhazardous abnormality that could create a problem in the future.

I've had the same problem with the cowling rod on my luscombe, although I get no flutter in the cowling. It definitely falls in the third category, provided the rod doesn't come out enough to allow enough flutter to damage the cowling
 
In my mind, the primary reason to declare an emergency is to notify ATC in order to:

1) Get priority handling, and/or

2) To expedite rescue in the event you go down.

I cruise with 121.5 in my radio if not talking to anyone else. My most recent declared emergency was a rough running engine over inhospitable terrain over central GA. Nice not having to fumble with the freq when trying to deal with a situation.

Since your situation did not seem to require ATC assistance, nor were you in any danger of going down somewhere, I don't think declaring would have accomplished anything. But if in any doubt at all, as PIC it's your call.

Finally, in none of my 3 declared emergencies (that I recall) was any paperwork involved. If you need assistance, that should be the farthest thing from your mind, anyway.
 
vkhosid said:
Hey guys....was just thinking about my last solo xc, and had a general question come up: What constitutes an "emergency", an "oh ****, I better land now, but not quite an emergency", " mehh, I'll take care of it when I land, and don't need to worry about it until later", etc...situation

Granted, I figure this question is vague and will differ from person to person,
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You've pretty much answered your own question. There's a combination of skill, background, knowledge, experience and attitude that goes into the answer for each pilot in each situation.

Since there is another thread talking about electrical issues, consider a popped alternator breaker as a good example. To a student pilot on his first solo cross country in the old beat-up 152, that may well be an emergency; to an experienced owner/pilot who does owner-assisted annuals and understand his aircraft intimately, it might be a non-event.

When in doubt, I don't think there is ever a reason to not declare an emergency (other than taking time away from priority tasks in handling the emergency, but that will be rare).

OTOH, IMO the most potentially dangerous variable is the pilot's attitude, especially the ones prevent calling for help such as an unrealistic "I can take care of it" or worse, "I don't want to have to do any paperwork." Declaring an emergency can often mean less paperwork and hassle.

BTW, that applies as much to acting because of a problem (such as diversion) where communication is not possible as it does to declaring an emergency out loud.
 
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I think more important than the physical issue with the cowl was the distraction it caused. I would have landed at the earliest opportunity, taken care of the problem allowing you to concentrate on the flight. Not an emergency but could easily cause you to miss something important like traffic or some other issue that gets ignored because of a focus on the cowling problem.
 
acluffpoa said:
......Not an emergency but could easily cause you to miss something important like traffic or some other issue that gets ignored because of a focus on the cowling problem.
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That's a really important point. Many a mis-hap has been due to diverted attention by something trivial. (not to say a cowl about to become "un-cowled" isn't a pretty serious issue), but focusing on the hinge pin certainly became a large part of your scan. Seem to remember an airliner that CFIT with all crew focused on a burned out gear bulb
 
There is something important here.

An emergency is NOT limited to "I'm making an emergency landing RIGHT NOW."

An emergency is a situation that has the potential to require that. Yours might have been an "urgency" condition (see 14 CFR 1.1), but if you can see the problem and know it can't get any worse, that's fine.

Question #1 is, what is the worst case? Suppose the bolt does back out all the way. Can you continue to fly to your destination? How about to the nearest airport? That's how you answer your question. If the answer is that you crash and die, a precautionary landing at the nearest airport or perhaps even a field is definitely called for. Despite your (lack of) endorsement, that's a clear legitimate application of 14 CFR 91.3(b). But I suspect the real answer is that the airplane would fly just fine.

Now, I'm not sure what a "cowl rod" is for, as the Cessna 140 seems to have a rather basic latch similar but not identical to a Warrior. Maybe it's more serious than I think.

Now, if a strut rod was backing out, I'd be making a very gentle precautionary landing at whatever airfield is within gliding distance (and there are quite a few out there). That one can kill you.
 
If the pilot didn't file a flight plan and He calls and declares or even if he doesn't declare, CAN HE GET RESCUE INITIATED FROM FLIGHT FOLLOWING if he drops comm? Sorry to all cap that. A lot of times somethings wrong, you want flight following so you can get rescued IF you have to land offield and its good to have someone to talk to. But you dont want to declare an emergency yet, no reason to so long as it doesn't get any worse. Or maybe you have to have the lights turned on at your destination airport because youre alternator light is on etc and your radio can go at any minute. Is there and advantage to declaring there?
 
IMHO, an emergency should be declared when you need priority over other aircraft or you need ATC to know where your emergency is occurring so they can get you help in case you have a forced landing. Once you enter a situation where the safety of the flight is in jeopardy, it's time to declare your emergency.
 
jcepiano said:
IMHO, an emergency should be declared when you need priority over other aircraft or you need ATC to know where your emergency is occurring so they can get you help in case you have a forced landing. Once you enter a situation where the safety of the flight is in jeopardy, it's time to declare your emergency.
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-OR- You need to deviate from an FAR in order to maintain safety of the passengers, yourself, or people on the ground.
 
ahkahn said:
-OR- You need to deviate from an FAR in order to maintain safety of the passengers, yourself, or people on the ground.
Click to expand...

And, for a student pilot, a precautionary landing at an unplanned airport is precisely that deviation.
 
Larry in TN said:
A good place to start with a question like that is the AIM.

Start with the definitions of Emergency, Mayday, and Pan Pan in the Pilot/controller glossary:

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg/

Then look through Chapter 6, Emergency Procedures:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/TOC.html#Chapter 6. Emergency Procedures

You may then find it leading you to the emergency section of your airplane's AFM.
Click to expand...

Specifically with 6-1-2(a), given the widely varying definitions of people, this seems to give people A LOT of room for variation in their assessment of a situation.

Going back to my situation....this is what I saw from my seat...

2j2up7b.jpg
 
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Any time the safe outcome of the flight is in question, the pilot may decide they wish to declare an emergency. All the rest is just different degrees of comfort level, which may or may not be accurate or warranted.
 
Got it.

I think.

When you called it a "cowl rod" I pictured something different.

Am I correct it was the piano hinge pin migrating back?

I could see that as potentially serious, if the front loosened up enough to let the wind start to catch the cowling and possibly peel it back.

Probably not an emergency, but the Most Conservative Action would be to land as soon as practicable and deal with it.

Good news is once slid back into place and the hinge end crimped a little tighter, should be good as new!
 
FastEddieB said:
Got it.

I think.

When you called it a "cowl rod" I pictured something different.

Am I correct it was the piano hinge pin migrating back?

I could see that as potentially serious, if the front loosened up enough to let the wind start to catch the cowling and possibly peel it back.

Probably not an emergency, but the Most Conservative Action would be to land as soon as practicable and deal with it.

Good news is once slid back into place and the hinge end crimped a little tighter, should be good as new!
Click to expand...


You're correct. if you look closer at the right hinge, you can see the front starting to peel back a bit. And if you look to the base of the windscreen, you can see the rod pushed back against the windscreen.
 
Understood.

I've had cowlings with rod supports on my two Grummans, so that was what I was picturing.

Got it now. Priority situation but not what I would call an emergency.

But I woukd not criticize anyone for doing so if they felt they needed assistance or if they might have to bend the rules to get down.

Good job.
 
The book definition of "emergency" refers you to the two terms "distress" and "urgency". Many pilots do not understand the "urgency" part of that, and believe that it's not an emergency unless their lives are in immediate danger. On the contrary, any time you foresee the safe outcome of the flight to be potentially in jeopardy, it is already an urgency condition and thus an emergency, even if it has not reached the level of a distress condition. As noted by the controllers above, a timely declaration of such an emergency along with accurate information on the situation makes a big difference in their ability to provide appropriate and timely assistance which may be the difference between an accident and "an uneventful approach and landing ensued".
 
Anytime you question the safe outcome of a flight you have an active emergency. There are two levels of emergency, Pan Pan (pronounced Pahn Pahn), and Mayday. Pan Pan is "I am in a bind, and I need some help pretty quick or we're looking at loss of life." Mayday is "We have an imminent loss of life situation here and I need help NOW!"
 
Henning said:
Pan Pan (pronounced Pahn Pahn),


"
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Henning may be he only person on the planet who believes that pronunciation is necessary. Yes, the Brits may say it that way, but pronounce frying pan that way, too -- that's just they way they speak the Queen's English. Saying it the way we Yanks say frying pan works just fine, too, even in England, as I discovered during several uses of it Over there.
 
Ron Levy said:
Henning may be he only person on the planet who believes that pronunciation is necessary. Yes, the Brits may say it that way, but pronounce frying pan that way, too -- that's just they way they speak the Queen's English. Saying it the way we Yanks say frying pan works just fine, too, even in England, as I discovered during several uses of it Over there.
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It's from the French language panne, (broken) same as Mayday is from the French m’aider (come help me) and the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard as well as every other person in the world pronounces it correctly, so yes, the pronunciation is best to know correctly whether or not you are understood sounding like an idiot.
 
Henning said:
It's from the French language panne, (broken) same as Mayday is from the French m’aider (come help me) and the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard as well as every other person in the world pronounces it correctly, so yes, the pronunciation is best to know correctly whether or not you are understood sounding like an idiot.
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So maybe if you're in French airspace, do that, but having years Americans say it otherwise in French airspace with no loss of understanding, I don't think it's necessary. And having actually been in the US Navy and qualified as both an aviation officer and a bridge officer, and having flown in the airspace of every non-neutral country in Europe west of the old Iron Curtain and heard the word used more times annually during the six years I was there than I have fingers and toes, I can tell you that nobody other than Henning will think you are "sounding like an idiot" if you pronounce "PAN" the way you'd pronounce "pan" in your native land. Nobody.
 
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What initiates a rescue effort? Lets assume the plane didn't file a flight plan. The problem occurs and the pilot gets flight following. Now, does he need to declare an emergency to initiate a rescue if he disappears from radar and/or radio? When it happens to many pilots, that is all they really need from ATC. If I go down, come get me. Does he have to declare to get that?

Does he need to declare an emergency to get the lights at his destination airport turned on? (he figures he will not have power for radio when he gets there, but does now)
 
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Ron Levy said:
So maybe if you're in French airspace, do that, but having years Americans say it otherwise in French airspace with no loss of understanding, I don't think it's necessary. And having actually been in the US Navy and qualified as both an aviation officer and a bridge officer, and having flown in the airspace of every non-neutral country in Europe west of the old Iron Curtain and heard the word used more times annually during the six years I was there than I have fingers and toes, I can tell you that nobody other than Henning will think you are "sounding like an idiot" if you pronounce "PAN" the way you'd pronounce "pan" in your native land. Nobody.
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You're really being an idiot here Ron. The pronunciation is meant to be identical globally. You're Mr do it exactly by the book on everything else, but when it comes to making an ass out of yourself in an SAR potential emergency situation you're good to go.:dunno: There is a reason there is ONE global SAR system that uses a phonetically defined vocabulary.

You call Pan Pan with a frying pan pronunciation the immediate reaction by the responder will be to think, "Oh crap, what did the moron patrol do to themselves now?" If you can't even educate yourself correctly on such a simple little thing, a basic one at that, what is the possibility that you have educated yourself properly on anything else? :dunno:

What do you have against doing this one thing properly? Why do you argue to defy the system made to save you? Are you getting a bit senile?

If you listen to Channel 16 on any bad weather day, you will frequently hear the USCG announce "Pahn pahn, Pahn Pahn, Pahn Pahn, hello all stations..." you will never hear them pronounce it Pan Pan, NOBODY DOES because you sound like a moron idiot when you do.

That you don't accept the correct pronunciation makes me question your Navy record, because the U.S. Navy pronounces it the same way regardless where they are.
 
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coloradobluesky said:
What initiates a rescue effort? Lets assume the plane didn't file a flight plan. The problem occurs and the pilot gets flight following. Now, does he need to declare an emergency to initiate a rescue if he disappears from radar and/or radio? When it happens to many pilots, that is all they really need from ATC. If I go down, come get me. Does he have to declare to get that?

Does he need to declare an emergency to get the lights at his destination airport turned on? (he figures he will not have power for radio when he gets there, but does now)
Click to expand...

Activating your 406 device be it ELT, PLB, or EPIRB. That sends your position up to the COPASS/SARSAT satellites (or they derive it if you don't have a GPS enabled unit).

That is the only way to assure the activation of the only dedicated SAR system on the planet, and through it you can access every rescue asset on the planet including all ships at sea.

Without it you are relying on someone else to activate it for you, and that has proven unreliable to the point where ATC sent rescuers to the wrong Great Lake to look for a downed pilot.

A G/PLB is under $300, wear it around your neck, open the antenna and push the button before you go in.
 
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