Ramp checked, my first time

RotorAndWing said:
Please show us in FAA guidance where that is stated.


Interoffice policy is not guidance.

Ramp inspections are recorded in a national database that can be searched by registration number, make and model or aircraft owner.

show us one

What would you like to wager if we put your Fairchild's registration number in nothing would come back?

yep, because the only place it would show is the activity sheet of the inspector.

Once again, please show us in official guidance where you are getting that from.


call your FSDO and ask them.
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Your ability to search the FAA data bases has already been proven, please show the web page that you can search these data bases by showing the last aircraft I signed off, or the last aircraft you did a ramp check on.



for those of you who do not know each FAA ASI has a activity sheet to rationalize their jobs, these sheets are not recoded into any data base by the employees name or number, just as mine are only kept in my PMI's file cabinet under my name, and used to re-new my IA certificate each 2 years.
SO, if ol rotor wants to know any info on me he must call my PMI, just as I would to get his info, I would be required to call his supervisor, but I doubt he has one.
 
N747JB said:
Carrying your logbook, when not required, can only hurt you in a ramp check situation. Let's say you land with one of your friends and get checked, you're current, but didn't log last weeks 3 TOLS, so you show the logbook without those 3 TOLS and now you AREN'T current to carry passengers!:yikes:
I am not saying anyone would falsify a logbook entry, but given 24 hours to bring it to the FSDO would allow time to make sure everything was correctly logged. :D
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Amen, brother, amen!
 
N747JB said:
Carrying your logbook, when not required, can only hurt you in a ramp check situation. Let's say you land with one of your friends and get checked, you're current, but didn't log last weeks 3 TOLS, so you show the logbook without those 3 TOLS and now you AREN'T current to carry passengers!:yikes:
I am not saying anyone would falsify a logbook entry, but given 24 hours to bring it to the FSDO would allow time to make sure everything was correctly logged. :D
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If you are not keeping your log book up to date you deserve what you get.

But i've never seen any occasion that the Inspector wouldn't give you time to update the log.
 
comanchepilot said:
If they want to see your logbok they have a reason to want to see it - which means that you need to make sure it is up to the recording standards before an ASI sees it. If they want to see a logbook - it is not a random check - they are specifically looking at you now.
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That simply is not true. While in practice it doesn't always happen, they are directed by 8900.1 to ask to see your logbook during a Part 91 ramp inspection whether targeted or random. Of course, if you don't have it with you and you haven't triggered their alarms they generally don't ask to see it later, but anything is possible.

I would ALWAYS ask why and then make sure you gert a letter compelling attendance. The reason for the logbook inspection needs to be spelled out because in my case if they wantto see a HP endorsement its not in my current log book - or if they want my current bfr, its not in my current logbook. If they call me in - I am bringing my CURRENT logbook if they are for my 'logbook' - and if they want to see something else they can specifically ask for it. Then you know what they are fishing for.
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Per section 44709 of Title 49 of the US Code, the FAA needs no reason to require you to present your logbook for inspection. The term "reasonable request" does not mean they need a reason. All they are required to do is give reasonable time to present it if you don't have it with you. If you or your attorney demand justification for that request, they simply put you on notice that if you don't comply promptly, they will initiate an enforcement action for violation of 14 CFR 61.51(i) forthwith.
 
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Ron Levy said:
That simply is not true. While in practice it doesn't always happen, they are directed by 8900.1 to ask to see your logbook during a Part 91 ramp inspection whether targeted or random. Of course, if you don't have it with you and you haven't triggered their alarms they generally don't ask to see it later, but anything is possible.

Per section 44709 of Title 49 of the US Code, the FAA needs no reason to require you to present your logbook for inspection. The term "reasonable request" does not mean they need a reason. All they are required to do is give reasonable time to present it if you don't have it with you. If you or your attorney demand justification for that request, they simply put you on notice that if you don't comply promptly, they will initiate an enforcement action for violation of 14 CFR 61.51(i) forthwith.
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right on the money as usual.

I just think it is easier to show it to them when they ask.
 
Tom-D said:
If you are not keeping your log book up to date you deserve what you get.

But i've never seen any occasion that the Inspector wouldn't give you time to update the log.
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Life happens. If I fly from my airport, then land, then take us all to dinner, then drive us all 45 minutes back to SF, then drive home, then take care of my dog - on a work night - you bet I'm going to bed right away and not logging the flight in my book.

So - from time to time - I get behind.
 
I agree with the pilots that said to NEVER NEVER NEVER carry your log books with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My engine and airframe logbooks are in a safe with 3 of my flight time log books. My current logbook I keep at home near my desk.
 
DaleB said:
So he looked at the airframe log, did a walk around, said the front tire was unairworthy due to cracks in the tread area.
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This guy is nuts! When is the last time you ever used the tire while in the air? Answer: NEVER! Maybe if he had said the plane wasn't GROUNDworthy.

Oh yeah. In your FACE, FAA!









ok. carry on.
 
So, thoughts on this:
I'm PP-ASEL with a 61.31(d) for PA-23. If I'm coming back from a solo flight and don't have my logbook, the ASI will see only PP-ASEL. Could I be in a world of bureaucratic hurt? I agree with not carrying the logbook so that it's available in the event it's lost in an accident, etc., but at the same time my ticket is PP-ASEL and the logbook is what says I can fly the twin...

and I guess I just answered my own question, for if I had an accident in the twin and the logbook burned up there'd be no evidence to suggest I was legally allowed to fly the bird in the first place.
 
MAKG1 said:
I think you'll need it if you add a class. Like, to solo in a helicopter or glider.
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If you're already rated in one thing, and training for an additional rating in another category or class, you get a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement in your logbook for solo privileges in that other cat/class.
(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must--

(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown; or (2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.
​
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Kind of a little-known fact outside those who do additional cat/class training, and since you're not a Student Pilot any more, all the stuff on the back of your old Student Pilot cerficate is obsolete even if it's still your medical certificate.
 
Apache123 said:
So, thoughts on this:
I'm PP-ASEL with a 61.31(d) for PA-23. If I'm coming back from a solo flight and don't have my logbook, the ASI will see only PP-ASEL. Could I be in a world of bureaucratic hurt?
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Interesting question. I can't find any regulation which says you must have that logbook with you when exercising those privileges, and it's well established that you don't need the logbook with you when exercising other 61.31 endorsement privileges like HP and tailwheel. Therefore, I'd say the worst they can do is make you produce the logbook within a reasonable period to show that 61.31(d)(2) multiengine class endorsement.

and I guess I just answered my own question, for if I had an accident in the twin and the logbook burned up there'd be no evidence to suggest I was legally allowed to fly the bird in the first place.
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You could say the same about a tailwheel endorsement which is required by the same section of Part 61, and it's well established that you don't need your logbook with you when flying a tailwheel airplane to prove your authorization under 61.31(i).
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're already rated in one thing, and training for an additional rating in another category or class, you get a 61.31(d)(2) endorsement in your logbook for solo privileges in that other cat/class.
Kind of a little-known fact outside those who do additional cat/class training, and since you're not a Student Pilot any more, all the stuff on the back of your old Student Pilot cerficate is obsolete even if it's still your medical certificate.
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Thank you. I do love to laminate things (I laminated my pilot cert).
 
Ron Levy said:
Interesting question. I can't find any regulation which says you must have that logbook with you when exercising those privileges, and it's well established that you don't need the logbook with you when exercising other 61.31 endorsement privileges like HP and tailwheel. Therefore, I'd say the worst they can do is make you produce the logbook within a reasonable period to show that 61.31(d)(2) multiengine class endorsement.

You could say the same about a tailwheel endorsement which is required by the same section of Part 61, and it's well established that you don't need your logbook with you when flying a tailwheel airplane to prove your authorization under 61.31(i).
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Both of these are true statements.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Thank you. I do love to laminate things (I laminated my pilot cert).
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If the one you laminated was paper, I sure hope you've got a newer plastic one to replace it. If you laminated your plastic one, I'd say your desire to laminate is not just a love but an obsession, and I really hope you signed it first.
 
HerrGruyere said:
This thread got me all scared that I'm gonna get ramp checked on Sunday morning when I fly.

I have done a W&B before on the plane and I know that just me in it is fine, but anything more than two will full tanks isn't. I also know we have the airframe logs for the plane, I just don't know where they are. I've never been in the hangar yet.
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I have been flying for over 30+ years and have NEVER been ramp checked...:no:.. I have met the guys /gals in the Wyoming FSFO during the process of getting my experimental blessed and they are great people... I have all my paperwork in order and if the time comes I do get ramped, then I have full faith that the FAA will act politely, professionally and timely...:)

Ben.
 
Ron Levy said:
If the one you laminated was paper, I sure hope you've got a newer plastic one to replace it. If you laminated your plastic one, I'd say your desire to laminate is not just a love but an obsession, and I really hope you signed it first.
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Of course I signed it. I laminated it because I heard after a few months in my wallet - my name and all the other writing would "wear off". You should see the cards etc in my boyfriend's wallet - all beat up. I didn't want that to happen to me.
 
I've been ramp checked three times, and never had them ask to see my logbook, even when it was out on the wing (I was filling it in when the ASI walked up). Pilot and medical certificate, airplane documents, and a little chit-chat. I had one guy teach my student (and me) some fine points on preflight inspections. I have the impression that the ramp checks are a "fun" evolution for the inspectors, getting out and not dealing with accidents or investigating alleged violations.

When I was thing the Coast Guard we did "Courtesy Evaluations" which were similar. Again the primary purpose was safety, and changing the culture, NOT enforcement. Our attitude was friendly and it rubbed off on the folks we met. So far all the FAA guys I've met in the field doing ramp stuff have been the same way.
 
TMetzinger said:
I've been ramp checked three times, and never had them ask to see my logbook, even when it was out on the wing (I was filling it in when the ASI walked up). Pilot and medical certificate, airplane documents, and a little chit-chat. I had one guy teach my student (and me) some fine points on preflight inspections. I have the impression that the ramp checks are a "fun" evolution for the inspectors, getting out and not dealing with accidents or investigating alleged violations.

When I was thing the Coast Guard we did "Courtesy Evaluations" which were similar. Again the primary purpose was safety, and changing the culture, NOT enforcement. Our attitude was friendly and it rubbed off on the folks we met. So far all the FAA guys I've met in the field doing ramp stuff have been the same way.
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Very true.
 
Once again everyone missed the fine point of what I said -

If you don't have your logbook - at a ramp - and THEN they want to see it - guess what- it is no longer a ramp inspection. They are summoning you to the FSDO to review your log book. YOU. Personally. Not just any pilot who just happened to show up.

Geesh, do I have to spell it out every single time? There is an awful lot in the words I use- people just actually have to read them and then understand the implication and context of them.

Move along, all done
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Of course I signed it. I laminated it because I heard after a few months in my wallet - my name and all the other writing would "wear off". You should see the cards etc in my boyfriend's wallet - all beat up. I didn't want that to happen to me.
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I've had mine for about two months and the "United States of America" at the top is already starting to fade.
 
comanchepilot said:
Once again everyone missed the fine point of what I said -

If you don't have your logbook - at a ramp - and THEN they want to see it - guess what- it is no longer a ramp inspection. They are summoning you to the FSDO to review your log book. YOU. Personally. Not just any pilot who just happened to show up.

Geesh, do I have to spell it out every single time? There is an awful lot in the words I use- people just actually have to read them and then understand the implication and context of them.

Move along, all done
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A fair amount of the burden for clear communication is placed on the sender. Ask any CFI about the barriers to effective communication.
 
RotorAndWing said:
NOTE: The custodian of PTRS data is AFS-620, and all requests for release of PTRS data will be directed to AFS-620. This is the only office authorized to release PTRS data under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). AFS may elect to withhold the release of a PTRS comment if the comment falls under one or more of the FOIA exemptions.
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That let's you out.
 
TMetzinger said:
A fair amount of the burden for clear communication is placed on the sender. Ask any CFI about the barriers to effective communication.
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I guess you mean other than . . . .

If they want to see your logbook they have a reason to want to see it - which means that you need to make sure it is up to the recording standards before an ASI sees it. If they want to see a logbook - it is not a random check - they are specifically looking at you now. Which changes the dynamic quite a bit.
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seems clear to me but then I wrote it :D:D:mad2:
 
comanchepilot said:
seems clear to me but then I wrote it :D:D:mad2:
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It was clear to me the first time you wrote it, if that is any consolation.

I think at some point nothing can be done in repeating myself with a longer explanation, so I haven't bothered to followup to some replies to my posts on this thread.
 
TMetzinger said:
Um, no, during a ramp check an ASI may ask to see your logbook, and that doesn't make you a target of an investigation.
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You are replying to his post in 113, but if you had read his post in 108 you would have hopefully realized your post above was superfluous. This is also clear when his post in 70 is read entirely in context, presumably without coloring preconceptions (at least it was clear to me.)
 
Jim Logajan said:
Meaning the very act of him posting on the alleged contents of those records was an unauthorized act?
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No you must be a government type of some sort to gain access to those data bases.

even if he did gain access he couldn't give out the info, so his statement that the records could be checked and the info gained could be used here to prove any thing is false.

Actually he did me a favor, I didn't know those data bases existed.

but think about this, how would any FSDO type know who annulled your aircraft until they looked in the log or gained access to the A&P-IA's activity sheet that may be as much as 2 years old.

There is no requirement for me to report who's aircraft I annualled, the only requirement is I must re-certify my IA every 2 years. and my activity sheet does that for me, but I could take the refresher training and not send in any activity sheet.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's fine for you, Tom, but I don't like carrying my flight bag into the grocery store when I stop on the way home from the airport.
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My airport was 3 miles from the house and I had to go past the house to get to town, now that the hangar is 45 minutes away I leave my flight bag in the aircraft locked in the hangar. head sets, GPS and all.
 
RotorAndWing said:
So you are admitting you were just fabricating your response, making something up to which you had no knowledge of?

How does someone "annulled" an aircraft??? Do you go to a Priest and ask him to remove the airworthiness certificate?? :rofl:
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fabricating a response? no stating what we the public see.

and we see nothing that indicates anything that makes us believe you are able to access any of these data bases.

I read the links you provided, there is nothing there requiring the ASI or and other inspector to log every contact with the public as a ramp inspection.

It is the inspector them selves that make the decision to input the info. I see statements like the inspector should, or the inspector may, I see no statements that the inspector must.

I hope Denney Pollard checks in on this, he is a real inspector, (or was) he operates in public view actually helps the public, is a DME, has his own web site, writes a news letter for his club, will e-mail you directly from his office with a ______.FAA.GOV address.

you ??? not so much.
 
TMetzinger said:
Um, no, during a ramp check an ASI may ask to see your logbook, and that doesn't make you a target of an investigation.
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Not only may they, but they are directed to ask.
D. Inspect Airman Documents.

1) Inspect airman certificates to determine appropriate ratings and limitations for the type of operations being conducted.

2) Determine if certificates are genuine and legible. (See Volume 5, Chapter 2, Section 1, General.)

3) Inspect airman medical certificates to determine if they are current and the appropriate class. Check for a Statement of Demonstrated Ability, if required, on the medical certificate.

4) If available, examine pilot logbooks (or other reliable records) to determine recency of experience and qualifications, such as:

· Biennial flight review
· Instrument proficiency check
· PIC proficiency check
5) If applicable, inspect pilot Category II and/or Category III authorization letters for currency. (§ 91.189)

6) Note any discrepancies on the job aid.
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Most times it appears they don't bother, but their book does tell them to ask as a matter of course, not on the basis of some other ulterior motive.
 
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