Ramp Check

Lance F

Lance F

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Lance F
From time to time the issue of FAA ramp checks comes up. I just ran across the document that is theF AA inspector's guide for this procedure. I found it interesting. Only 16 pages :crazy:.
 

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Lance F said:
From time to time the issue of FAA ramp checks comes up. I just ran across the document that is theF AA inspector's guide for this procedure. I found it interesting. Only 16 pages :crazy:.
Click to expand...

Page 14 is the most informative, I think...

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Is an aircraft radio license still required?
C. Radio Station License.

An aircraft FCC radio license is required although the FAA does not regulate the requirement. The license may be for that particular N-number or a fleet license. The expiration date of the license is in the upper right hand corner. Any discrepancy concerning the radio license should be brought to the attention of the operator only.
Click to expand...
Complimenting is a nice touch.
L. Conclude Inspection.
(1) Discuss any pertinent safety information with the pilots or operator.
(2) Return any documentation.
(3) Advise the pilot or operator of any upcoming accident prevention or other safety meetings.

(4) If no discrepancies were found, compliment the pilot or operator.​
Click to expand...
 
Your document is outdated. See the current version in FSIMS, especially the parts about radio licenses:

6-93 PILOT DOCUMENTS. When asked to present airman and medical certificates, a pilot may present a radio license formerly required by the FCC or make a statement that he or she does not have one. The FCC has determined that pilots are no longer required to have this license unless flying internationally.

...

6-95 AIRCRAFT DOCUMENTS.

C. Radio Station License. An aircraft FCC radio license is required although the FAA does not regulate the requirement. The license may be for that particular N-number or a fleet license. The expiration date of the license is in the upper right hand corner. Any discrepancy concerning the radio license should be brought to the attention of the operator only.
Click to expand...

Note that the first paragraph is correct, but the second isn't. However, the FAA won't care whether you have one or not.
 
The "ramp check guide" states that weight and balance data along with an equipment list is required to be on board. I wasn't aware that any equipment list was a required to be on board or part of the required W&B data. Where is this spelled out? My Porterfield has never had any kind of equipment list AFaIK. The Baron has an equipment list that came with the airplane when it was new and it's been periodically updated but is not likely exactly current. I normally keep that with the maintenance logs and not in the airplane. A signed copy of the current W&B sheet showing the empty airplane's weight, moment, and CG is in my POH and I was under the impression that this (along with the arms of the various baggage, fuel, and seats in the POH) was all I needed W&B wise to be legal.
 
After a lengthy and unplesant battle with the FAA which resulted in a written apology from "the" Administrator in Washington soaring guru Bob Wander came up with this:

Pilots: Know Your Rights!

Worried About FAA Ramp Checks?

Don't Be! Ramp checks for you, the pilot, are as easy as 1-2-3!


Here are the Facts About FAA Ramp Checks:


1. If approached by an FAA Inspector, ask to see the Inspector's
identification card. Be Polite. Record the Inspector's name.


2. If asked to produce your pilot license (and for airplane pilots, your medical certificate), then produce the document(s), but do not hand over any pilot license or medical document to the FAA Inspector. The Inspector is entitled to see, but not take, your pilot license (and medical certificate, if one is required).


3. That's It! That's ALL you have to do! You do not have to allow access to the interior of your aircraft! If the Inspector thinks otherwise, invite the Inspector to submit a written request to you. Be polite...but be firm. You have ten days to comply with any written request after receiving it.


So, Know Your Rights! In America, we pilots have the right to access our aircraft and our skies. Let's preserve that right!


Bob Wander
Faribault Airport, MN USA
 
Ron Levy said:
Your document is outdated. See the current version in FSIMS
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link to the newer document. Both the older and the newer vserion (page 6 on the newer) in section D ("Inspect Airman Documents"), paragraph 4, instruct the inspector to "If available, examine pilot logbooks (or other reliable records to determine recency of experience and qualifications, such as: * Biennial flight review * Instrument proficiency check * PIC proficiency check."

What's that last one!? I can see an examiner looking for an endorsement I don't have. Is there an FAR/CFR requiring a "PIC Proficiency check"?
 
Ron Levy said:
Your document is outdated. See the current version in FSIMS, especially the parts about radio licenses
Click to expand...

The first document posted may be outdated; but, I fail to detect a difference re radio licenses.

Ron's:
6-93 PILOT DOCUMENTS. When asked to present airman and medical certificates, a pilot may present a radio license formerly required by the FCC or make a statement that he or she does not have one. The FCC has determined that pilots are no longer required to have this license unless flying internationally.
Click to expand...

OP's:
13. PILOT DOCUMENTS. When asked to present airman and medical certificates, a pilot may present a radio license formerly required by the FCC or make a statement that he or she does not have one. The FCC has determined that pilots are no longer required to have this license unless flying internationally.
Click to expand...

and...

Ron's:
6-95 AIRCRAFT DOCUMENTS.

C. Radio Station License. An aircraft FCC radio license is required although the FAA does not regulate the requirement. The license may be for that particular N-number or a fleet license. The expiration date of the license is in the upper right hand corner. Any discrepancy concerning the radio license should be brought to the attention of the operator only.
Click to expand...

OP's:
17.
C. Radio Station License. An aircraft FCC radio license is required although the FAA does not regulate the requirement. The license may be for that particular N-number or a fleet license. The expiration date of the license is in the upper right hand corner. Any discrepancy concerning the radio license should be brought to the attention of the operator only.
Click to expand...

So, in both cases the second paragraph - per Ron - is incorrect.
For Part 91 operations, the AIM says:
FCC radio station license, if required by the type of operation.
Click to expand...
Other FAA documents go on to further state (e.g., FAA-H8083-3A - Airplane Flying Handbook):
Having a current FCC radio station license if equipped with radios, including emergency locator transmitter (ELT), if operated outside of the United States.
Click to expand...

Ron, what is incorrect about the Radio Station License?
Is it just that the FAA can't enforce it, but still needs to report it?
 
3. That's It! That's ALL you have to do! You do not have to allow access to the interior of your aircraft! If the Inspector thinks otherwise, invite the Inspector to submit a written requst.


So if your airman documents and aircraft documents are inside your aircraft, you then have ten days before you need to produce them for inspection??? I like that idea!

Rick
 
First, the equipment list issue was discussed in an article in FAA Aviation News some years ago. I don't have a copy to quote, but the bottom line is that Flight Standards believes it's required, and more than 10 years later, FAA Legal has yet to say they're wrong. Perhaps they are wrong, but so far nobody whose legal opinion counts has bought that argument.

Second, Bob Wander is quite wrong about the requirement to allow the Inspector to handle your documents for inspection. Failure to hand them over for inspection can result in anything from an FAA enforcement action to an unpleasant encounter with a law enforcement officer. OTOH, failure to return the documents to you upon completion of the inspection can result in loss of job for the Inspector and a successful lawsuit against the Federal Government unless the Inspector determines that the documents are either altered/forged, or under order of suspension/revocation. He's also wrong about access to the aircraft interior -- the only rule is that they're not allowed to enter your aircraft without your presence, and that's stated in FAA Order 8900.1. And that's presence, not permission. Follow Mr. Wander's "guidelines" at your own legal peril.

In addition, there is no regulatory basis for the assertion that you have 10 days to produce documents which must be in your "personal possession" or in the aircraft during flight. If you can't/don't/won't produce them for inspection on request on the spot, you are legal toast. Further, documents which you are required to produce "upon reasonable request" (like pilot and aircraft logbooks) must be produced on the spot if you admit or the Inspector sees that they are present (another good reason not to put your pilot and medical certificates in your logbook). Only if you don't have them with you are you allowed a reasonable period to produce them. And yeah, that's all been tested in the courts.

Third, the PIC Proficiency Check is required for 2-pilots required aircraft by 14 CFR 61.58. The planes most of us here fly don't require it.

Finally, what's wrong with the paragraph on Aircraft Radio Station licenses is that they are no longer required unless the aircraft is operating outside the USA. Since the FAA does not report to the FCC, they are under no mandate to report Aircraft Radio Station license problems to the FCC, and by direction of the Administrator ("Any discrepancy concerning the radio license should be brought to the attention of the operator only."), will not do so. Consider it a case of "you want to make the rule, you get to spend the resources to enforce the rule" between the two agencies.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Third, the PIC Proficiency Check is required for 2-pilots required aircraft by 14 CFR 61.58. The planes most of us here fly don't require it.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, now I remember hearing about that... I thought it applied to Part 135 pilots and this was a Part 91 ramp check guide. Will have to go re-read the CFR you referenced.

Thanks for jiggling the cobwebs!
 
Ron Levy said:
First, the equipment list issue was discussed in an article in FAA Aviation News some years ago. I don't have a copy to quote, but the bottom line is that Flight Standards believes it's required, and more than 10 years later, FAA Legal has yet to say they're wrong. Perhaps they are wrong, but so far nobody whose legal opinion counts has bought that argument.
Click to expand...

So how do I determine what must be listed on an equipment list? Is there any official guidance?
 
gismo said:
So how do I determine what must be listed on an equipment list? Is there any official guidance?
Click to expand...
It's in the certification rules.
14 CFR 23.1589 said:
(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is installed when the airplane was weighed under the requirement of §23.25.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know your Porterfield was certified under CAR 3, but this is the guidance the Flight Standards folks quoted.
 
wby0nder said:
2. If asked to produce your pilot license (and for airplane pilots, your medical certificate), then produce the document(s), but do not hand over any pilot license or medical document to the FAA Inspector. The Inspector is entitled to see, but not take, your pilot license (and medical certificate, if one is required).
Click to expand...
An unfortunately nonsensical recommendation that gets repeated way too much.

It's based on some myth that, somehow, the FAA's detailed paperwork and other requirements for a surrender of a pilot certificate is met when an inspector touches it, or that, somehow, the inspector authority to examine your certificate (to see if the picture on it is a Wright brother and not Stephen Colbert) allows him to keep it (if it's not Stephen Colbert)

If, in response to a request by an inspector to examine my pilot certificate, I held it away and said, "No, no, no! You can look but no touching!", I expect the same reaction as if I did it with a traffic cop when asked to see my license and registration.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's based on some myth that, somehow, the FAA's detailed paperwork and other requirements for a surrender of a pilot certificate is met when an inspector touches it, or that, somehow, the inspector authority to examine your certificate (to see if the picture on it is a Wright brother and not Stephen Colbert) allows him to keep it (if it's not Stephen Colbert
Click to expand...

From the procedure:
L. Conclude Inspection.

1) Discuss any pertinent safety information with the pilots or operator.

2) Return any documentation.

3) Advise the pilot or operator of any upcoming accident prevention or other safety meetings.

4) If no discrepancies were found, compliment the pilot or operator.
Click to expand...
 
I attended a seminar where one of the speakers was an aviation lawyer. He discussed the origin of this myth about not handing your certificates to the inspector. His story was that in the "old days", which I took to mean 30-40 years ago, some inspectors would take it upon themselves to do a "desk drawer suspension". In other words, if they found a pilot in violation of something, they would take the certificate and put it in their desk drawer for a certain amount of time and then give it back without going through official channels. Nowadays, that is forbidden and all certificate actions need to go through the process. I don't know how true this story is but I do know that there is nothing to fear from handing the inspector your certificates so he or she can look at them.

As far as ramp checks go, I've only had three in my life, one as a mapping pilot, one as a CFI and one as a charter pilot, and all were pretty much non-events lasting all of 5-10 minutes.
 
That is a 1990 document, a lot has changed, not only the mention of the FCC requirements.

I wonder what the current document date is.
 
BillTIZ said:
That is a 1990 document, a lot has changed, not only the mention of the FCC requirements. I wonder what the current document date is.
Click to expand...
Since FAA Order 8900.1 (from whence the instructions I quoted were taken) is is kept on line at FSIMS and updated as required, it's always current as of the date you look at it.
 
I am going to have alot of fun with the Form 8620-1 in my buddy's hangar next door...
 
Ramp checks are often blown out of proportion. I've had several over the years in both private and commercial aviation. Usually the Inspector's just look at the documents and move along.

However, an Inspector cannot enter a private hangar without your permission nor can they enter your aircraft without your permission. Every Inspector I have dealt with has always asked before entering.

In the 135/121 world Inspectors are not allowed to delay a scheduled flight to conduct a ramp check. I have had Inspectors come aboard and have told them we are up against a departure time and needed to do our required checklist and paperwork and we could not comply with the ramp check at this time. They just note that and move along.

Just have your required documents and be friendly.
 
I got ramped in Lovington, NM on a day when the only two souls on the airport property were the Fed and me.
 
wabower said:
I got ramped in Lovington, NM on a day when the only two souls on the airport property were the Fed and me.
Click to expand...

I once got a ramp inspection in Rochester, NY one night, then was on a trip a week later in Syracuse and had the same Fed ramp me there. I just laughed when I saw him and said "Hey, we gotta stop meeting like this!":wink2:
 
Rotor&Wing said:
However, an Inspector cannot enter a private hangar without your permission nor can they enter your aircraft without your permission. Every Inspector I have dealt with has always asked before entering.
Click to expand...
They do ask, but they only need your presence, not your permission, to enter the aircraft.
 
wabower said:
I got ramped in Lovington, NM on a day when the only two souls on the airport property were the Fed and me.
Click to expand...

Could it have anything to do with the two bales of "hay" in your back seat? :devil:

"Honest, the seat latch is broken, they are just there to keep the seatback upright!"

-Skip
 
The checklist above lists BFR and pilot qualifications. Are we required to carry our log books on every flight? When I was ramp checked they never asked to see these. Also, I like to fly with a minimal amount of stuff in the helicopter when the doors are off. I have been told that anything the leaves the cockpit heads straight for the tail rotor and make for a really bad day.

With respect to navigation charts, does having a GPS with weekly updates like Anywhere Maps qualify for the chart requirement?
 
swingwing said:
The checklist above lists BFR and pilot qualifications.
Click to expand...
Maybe I missed that. The guide I'm looking at is in the first post in this string, for a Part 91 ramp check, not a FR.
Are we required to carry our log books on every flight? When I was ramp checked they never asked to see these.
Click to expand...
No, you are not required to keep your log book with you when flying - unless you are a student on solo flight. See Paragraph 17 on page 56-2 for the documents a ramp checker does need to see.
With respect to navigation charts, does having a GPS with weekly updates like Anywhere Maps qualify for the chart requirement?
Click to expand...
There is no requirement to have a chart at all. However, the pilot is charged of knowing or having at hand all the pertinent details for the flight. Without a chart, you are opening yourself for a game of stump the dummy, which you will lose if whoever is grilling you is sufficiently motivated. If they see a current chart, you are golden. With no knowledge of actual precedence, I will guess that a GPS is not sufficient. What happens if you lose power, the examiner asks..... It is easy to stick a current chart in your flight bag or under your seat.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
No, you are not required to keep your log book with you when flying - unless you are a student on solo flight. See Paragraph 17 on page 56-2 for the documents a ramp checker does need to see.
Click to expand...
You're also required to carry your logbook or other evidence of endorsements received if you're a sport pilot or a CFI-SP giving instruction.
 
Skip Miller said:
Maybe I missed that. The guide I'm looking at is in the first post in this string, for a Part 91 ramp check, not a FR.
Click to expand...
Skip
The Part 91 Inspection checklist page 56-9 includes the following items:

Pilot experience/ qual.
Biennial Flight Review
Aeronautical Charts

This is what confused me.:confused:
 
Ron Levy said:
They do ask, but they only need your presence, not your permission, to enter the aircraft.
Click to expand...


You are misinterpreting 8900.1. They need the owners permission to enter the aircraft.

2) An inspector must not board any aircraft without the knowledge of the crew or operator. Some operators may prefer to have a company representative present to answer questions.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Since FAA Order 8900.1 (from whence the instructions I quoted were taken) is is kept on line at FSIMS and updated as required, it's always current as of the date you look at it.
Click to expand...

Thanx.. Bill
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You are misinterpreting 8900.1. They need the owners permission to enter the aircraft.

2) An inspector must not board any aircraft without the knowledge of the crew or operator. Some operators may prefer to have a company representative present to answer questions.
Click to expand...
I see "knowledge," but I don't see "permission."

"Heave to and prepare to be boarded."
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You are misinterpreting 8900.1. They need the owners permission to enter the aircraft.

2) An inspector must not board any aircraft without the knowledge of the crew or operator. Some operators may prefer to have a company representative present to answer questions.
Click to expand...

Ron Levy said:
I see "knowledge," but I don't see "permission."

"Heave to and prepare to be boarded."
Click to expand...
And I don't even see where the presence is required. I mean, you cannot just walk away from the plane to force the inspector out. In fact, it seems as if a telephone call would suffice. "Two-way communication?":wink2:
 
The guy asked me if he could board. I told him to knock himself out.
gprellwitz said:
And I don't even see where the presence is required. I mean, you cannot just walk away from the plane to force the inspector out. In fact, it seems as if a telephone call would suffice. "Two-way communication?":wink2:
Click to expand...
 
He said he wanted to see my weight and balance. I told him I had a scale in the baggage compartment and would stand on whichever foot he wanted.

gprellwitz said:
So what did he say after he woke up?:tongue:
Click to expand...
 
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