Radio Equipped vs. Not

U

Unregistered

Guest
Hypothetical situation for everyone:

Two aircraft are approaching an airfield, one radio equipped, the other not. The radio equipped aircraft is transient, checks AWOS at the airfield and makes radio calls all the way in, stating his intentions to enter the pattern (downwind) and land on runway 18. The non-radio equipped aircraft is locally based, makes no radio calls (obviously), and makes a direct entry to land on runway 36 while the radio equipped aircraft is on short final, forcing an aborted landing. If it matters, wind is probably 3 knots out of 270°.

My question is this...is one of the aircraft pilots required to exercise a greater degree of care over the other, and is there a regulation or something in the AIM that addresses non-radio equipped operation at an airfield?
 
I don't think the FARs indicate a preference for NORDO or radio-equipped aircraft. Both are required to see and avoid equally.

That said, in reality it can be really hard to see airplanes in the pattern, and we have to recognize the limits of eyeballs. I have almost been run down by NORDO and radio-equipped airplanes equally. Lots of pilots have zero SA no matter how much equipment they have.

I'd cut the NORDO guy a little more slack just because he has fewer tools to help him see and avoid. But if I didn't have a radio, I'd be doing a regular 45° entry to midfield downwind, every time. Straight-ins are just too dicey when you can't hear anybody else and might not see them either.

Lots of people do it and it's fine and legal, but flying with no radio would personally give me the willies unless I was taking off and landing from a private strip.
 
bullwinkle said:
I don't think the FARs indicate a preference for NORDO or radio-equipped aircraft. Both are required to see and avoid equally.

That said, in reality it can be really hard to see airplanes in the pattern, and we have to recognize the limits of eyeballs. I have almost been run down by NORDO and radio-equipped airplanes equally. Lots of pilots have zero SA no matter how much equipment they have.

I'd cut the NORDO guy a little more slack just because he has fewer tools to help him see and avoid. But if I didn't have a radio, I'd be doing a regular 45° entry to midfield downwind, every time. Straight-ins are just too dicey when you can't hear anybody else and might not see them either.

Lots of people do it and it's fine and legal, but flying with no radio would personally give me the willies unless I was taking off and landing from a private strip.
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While I would want to slap the NORDO guy across the mouth in your scenario, I agree whole-heartedly with this answer.
 
Unregistered said:
Hypothetical situation for everyone:

Two aircraft are approaching an airfield, one radio equipped, the other not. The radio equipped aircraft is transient, checks AWOS at the airfield and makes radio calls all the way in, stating his intentions to enter the pattern (downwind) and land on runway 18. The non-radio equipped aircraft is locally based, makes no radio calls (obviously), and makes a direct entry to land on runway 36 while the radio equipped aircraft is on short final, forcing an aborted landing. If it matters, wind is probably 3 knots out of 270°.

My question is this...is one of the aircraft pilots required to exercise a greater degree of care over the other, and is there a regulation or something in the AIM that addresses non-radio equipped operation at an airfield?
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...Which runway is the calm wind runway?
 
This used to happen regularly at a local uncontrolled airport.

The NORDO aircraft (we know the pilot) had radios, just didn't use them. He could also land quite short and took advantage of this. And, knowing that most other pilots would go around rather than a chance encounter, he just seemed to shrug it off as if nothing happened. As far as I know, despite some grumbling, nothing ever happened to this guy.

Its strictly "see and avoid". Do you feel like playing chicken with a guy that doesn't know (or doesn't care) what others in the pattern are doing?
 
I flew NORDO at a fairly busy public airport for about seven years, in the '80s and '90s. No doubt some folks got surprised, but I always...ALWAYS...flew a standard 45-degree entry to give people the best chance to spot me.

I tried to follow the wind-T at the airport, but always went with the existing pattern, even if they were landing downwind. There was a designated calm-wind runway, but of course there were those who would land the opposite way for convenience.

Remember several "interesting" occurrences. Since the pattern was always to the West, had one case of a head-on lineup with another airplane on final. It was a buddy of mine, we had a good laugh afterwards.

The other when I was on downwind and another airplane approached on 45. Our courses would intersect. I could actually see the pilot of the other aircraft. He never even *looked* to see if there was another airplane in the pattern. All hail Marconi!

Had a couple of cases where planes took off in front of me as I was on short final...but to be honest, that still happens today even with a radio.

Ron Wanttaja
 
All your electrons will not save you. Look outside suckers. There be nordo planes, gas powered lawnchairs, mountains in the way, and sometimes pretty scenery.
 
See and avoid,there are several reasons a pilot could be flying NORDO.
 
Actually, just double checked my data. Flip the runways that they approached. Prevailing wind (as per archived METAR data) favored 36. NORDO guy lands 18 cutting off other traffic on short final.

I should add that this NORDO individual has a history of doing things just like this that, while maybe not illegal, certainly could be quantified as unsafe. Chaps my @$$.
 
"Any other traffic please advise".....:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Sometimes I will respond "Be advised, there may be aircraft in the pattern without radios..."
 
Unregistered said:
Actually, just double checked my data. Flip the runways that they approached. Prevailing wind (as per archived METAR data) favored 36. NORDO guy lands 18 cutting off other traffic on short final.

I should add that this NORDO individual has a history of doing things just like this that, while maybe not illegal, certainly could be quantified as unsafe. Chaps my @$$.
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So... You weren't posting a hypothetical situation; you just wanted to vent and garner sympathy for your butt-hurt.
Got it.


THIS is why we can't have nice things!
 
No, it wasn't hypothetical, I just wondered people's opinions. This didn't happen to me, but I certainly feel the wrath of the person involved as the airport manager. This same person has been the cause of 8 complaints over the last 6 years. As a pilot myself I can tell him one thing, but as a customer service representative, I'm sometimes required to say things a little differently. Nice jump to conclusion on your part though Joe.
 
I recently was doing T&G's at an airport about after about 30 minutes we figured out that while we could hear traffic they were not hearing us (turned out to be microphone issue). We heard a guy enter the pattern behind us, now knowing he was not hearing our transmissions we flew a close in pattern to give him room. Just as we were about to touch down he transmits. "Holly Cr*p, there is a plane on final, going around" I think we just surprised him more than anything, we were watching and intentionally gave him enough room to land behind us.

Brian
 
Unregistered said:
No, it wasn't hypothetical, I just wondered people's opinions. This didn't happen to me, but I certainly feel the wrath of the person involved as the airport manager. This same person has been the cause of 8 complaints over the last 6 years. As a pilot myself I can tell him one thing, but as a customer service representative, I'm sometimes required to say things a little differently. Nice jump to conclusion on your part though Joe.
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Well, I'll be blunt I think its careless and reckless to do a straight in approach to an unfavored runway in a no radio situation. YMMV, but that's just my opinion.
 
Unregistered said:
Hypothetical situation for everyone:

Two aircraft are approaching an airfield, one radio equipped, the other not. The radio equipped aircraft is transient, checks AWOS at the airfield and makes radio calls all the way in, stating his intentions to enter the pattern (downwind) and land on runway 18. The non-radio equipped aircraft is locally based, makes no radio calls (obviously), and makes a direct entry to land on runway 36 while the radio equipped aircraft is on short final, forcing an aborted landing. If it matters, wind is probably 3 knots out of 270°.

My question is this...is one of the aircraft pilots required to exercise a greater degree of care over the other, and is there a regulation or something in the AIM that addresses non-radio equipped operation at an airfield?
Click to expand...


Unregistered said:
No, it wasn't hypothetical, I just wondered people's opinions. This didn't happen to me, but I certainly feel the wrath of the person involved as the airport manager. This same person has been the cause of 8 complaints over the last 6 years. As a pilot myself I can tell him one thing, but as a customer service representative, I'm sometimes required to say things a little differently. Nice jump to conclusion on your part though Joe.
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OK. Not hypothetical.
Thank you for being forthright and not abusing the "unregistered" feature.

I have no opinion to add as the story is incomplete.
 
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Wanted opinions, but have to post unregistered due to pending legal action. The way I read the disclaimer, that was appropriate.
 
Unregistered said:
Actually, just double checked my data. Flip the runways that they approached. Prevailing wind (as per archived METAR data) favored 36. NORDO guy lands 18 cutting off other traffic on short final.

I should add that this NORDO individual has a history of doing things just like this that, while maybe not illegal, certainly could be quantified as unsafe. Chaps my @$$.
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How did the NORDO guy cut off the other traffic? Get to the runway first? Would you say he cut the other guy off If he had flown downwind and base to 18 and the other guy had to go around?
 
Archammer said:
While I would want to slap the NORDO guy across the mouth in your scenario, I agree whole-heartedly with this answer.
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Basically....yea. Mr no radio should fly a standard patter but he is not legally required to. I'd be inclined to head over and talk about his plane, then causally mention the dick move he pulled and see where it goes.
 
kkoran said:
How did the NORDO guy cut off the other traffic? Get to the runway first? Would you say he cut the other guy off If he had flown downwind and base to 18 and the other guy had to go around?
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I've been cut off by a radio-equipped airplane while flying NORDO. I didn't complain about it, I went around, landed, got another load and got back to work. I'd like for someone to try to slap me for a perceived cut-off.
 
My radio went on the fritz a week and a half ago on the way back home. I had to fly NORDO on in and land. I was super careful since we have a pretty good mix of bizjets, King Airs, etc. at our airport. Still had a little bit of an issue, but things worked out okay. Radio is out now and at the avionics shop. If I can find a charger that will work, I may try a handheld just to keep the engine lubricated.
 
I've been cut-off by folks flying their radio many times when I was NORDO in my Cub. I've also been cut-off my folks flying their radio when I was radio equipped and announcing. I've been cut-off by NORDO when I'm also NORDO.

I fly from several non-towered fields, both with and without radios. Most issues I've had have been with folks with radios and bad eyes vs NORDO. Most NORDO folks do a good job and fly standard patterns. Some don't. Same with radio equipped.

It all boils down to the individual more than the radio or lack thereof.


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4
 
Unregistered said:
Hypothetical situation for everyone. . .
Click to expand...

Unregistered said:
I should add that this NORDO individual has a history of doing things just like this that, while maybe not illegal, certainly could be quantified as unsafe. Chaps my @$$.
Click to expand...

Unregistered said:
No, it wasn't hypothetical, . . . .
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Unregistered said:
Wanted opinions, but have to post unregistered due to pending legal action.
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So will we be compensated for our expert testimony?

FAR 91.113(g) says, "When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft."

It doesn't say anything about the wind or radios.

I fly both NORDO and RDO. In Class E, many RDO aircraft are effectively NORDO anyway since they may be on any old frequency. And I stopped counting the times pilots with radios fail to see the big white gliders circling in front of them. See, and Avoid.
 
Yawn, I was NORDO, like i usually am, Hell I flew from Michigan to California NORDO, did i have to adjust myself a few times, yep. Did somebody else that I might not have seen have to adjust their pattern? quite possibly. Get over it, 6 times in 8 years is nothing, although i suppose that is more than some fly,
 
VanDy said:
Yawn, I was NORDO, like i usually am, Hell I flew from Michigan to California NORDO, did i have to adjust myself a few times, yep. Did somebody else that I might not have seen have to adjust their pattern? quite possibly. Get over it, 6 times in 8 years is nothing, although i suppose that is more than some fly,
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Colorado to Delaware NORDO, and nary a problem for me.
 
Herve Marchadier said:
Colorado to Delaware NORDO, and nary a problem for me.
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and you survived? lol the only place it was 'slightly' challenging for me was around Salt Lake City, they dont leave you much space to get under the shelf and over the mountain to take the pass to Reno
 
VanDy said:
and you survived? lol the only place it was 'slightly' challenging for me was around Salt Lake City, they dont leave you much space to get under the shelf and over the mountain to take the pass to Reno
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I cheated and brought a Stratus 2 and an iPad so I could avoid the Death Star...ahem DC SFRA. I figured being NORDO and no transponder, I should make sure I kept out. That's a long flight in an Ag Cat. Lol
 
Herve Marchadier said:
I cheated and brought a Stratus 2 and an iPad so I could avoid the Death Star...ahem DC SFRA. I figured being NORDO and no transponder, I should make sure I kept out. That's a long flight in an Ag Cat. Lol
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I did too, well I borrowed them. Mostly for weather in the mountains. The rest of the trips were sectional and a compass


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The great thing about NORDO is that you're not distracted by all of the dorkbar wearing CFIs screaming at you on frequency while you're in the pattern.
 
Bobcat1 said:
The great thing about NORDO is that you're not distracted by all of the dorkbar wearing CFIs screaming at you on frequency while you're in the pattern.
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Well, then you'd love it at my home airport. CFIs from one local flight school (NOT based at the airport) turn their radios off in our pattern because it's distracting.

Ron Wanttaja
 
IMHO see and avoid doesn't work so well, especially if you have no idea you're even supposed to be looking for an airplane in a certain location. Even when I know where aircraft are supposed to be I can have trouble spotting them.

When you're on the ground looking up, it makes it much easier to spot aircraft, since they're usually more highlighted by flying against a solid backdrop or white clouds.
 
Challenged said:
IMHO see and avoid doesn't work so well, especially if you have no idea you're even supposed to be looking for an airplane in a certain location. Even when I know where aircraft are supposed to be I can have trouble spotting them.

When you're on the ground looking up, it makes it much easier to spot aircraft, since they're usually more highlighted by flying against a solid backdrop or white clouds.
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Then don't fly. If mountains weren't NORDO would pilots stop flying into them?
 
Archammer said:
I was hoping this guy was going to write about his experience with a NORDO traffic mid air collision and he did.

Great read: http://airfactsjournal.com/2016/01/surviving-mid-air/

So, you know, get a damn radio!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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He did a fantastic job continuing to fly the airplane. And he was much luckier than any of the folks with radios who've died in mid airs lately.
 
Archammer said:
I was hoping this guy was going to write about his experience with a NORDO traffic mid air collision and he did.

Great read: http://airfactsjournal.com/2016/01/surviving-mid-air/

So, you know, get a damn radio!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It isn't the lack of a radio. If you don't use your eyes, radio or not you're a danger. I was doing touch and goes and had a C172 I was sharing the pattern with cut me off. Both doing radio calls.

(Edit: damn spelling correction - paternity. Really???)
 
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Most everything mentioned in the OPs statement is irrelevant.

Where the plane is based, irrelevant
Which way the wind is blowing, irrelevant
Communications equipment onboard, irrelevant
How he entered the pattern (as long as it's in the correct L or R direction), irrelevant.


Only factor here is who's lower, in this case it's the nordo guy, you yield to him.


Plus FARs aside, if I have eyes on someone landing and I don't think they have eyes on me, I'm going to give them space regardless.
 
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