Radar Summary Charts

StinkBug

StinkBug

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Getting ready for my IR checkride and found something that has me a little stumped.

When I took my PPL checkride a bit less than a year ago the radar summary chart I was questioned about looked like this

12-17.gif


It's the type of thing that seems to be in every book and prep guide I've seen.

Problem is when I go to aviationweather.gov and look up a radar summary chart this is the page I end up at.

https://aviationweather.gov/iffdp/misc

If you click on Radar Summary there you'll see that the chart is VERY different. Aside from being in color the symbology is also different. On the old black and white chart there were arrows showing the direction and speed of cell movement. Now we have what look like wind barbs from a winds aloft chart. I can take a guess at what they are telling me, but I cant seem to find anything that definitively tells me what the heck I am looking at. Am I just going to the wrong page or did things get changed without any notice?
 
The written uses outdated weather products. The products have improved a lot, but the exam hasn't kept up.

It's the same for the private pilot exam.
 
Radar Summary Chart questions have been removed from the question bank.

Bob Gardner
 
I went through the same confusion a year ago when I saw that my notes referenced weather products that were no longer used.
 
I already took my written though, that's not the issue. I'm taking my checkride on tuesday, and Radar Summary is still on the PTS, as are stability charts, which I'm also having some trouble with even finding much info about. They aren't even mentioned in the training materials I've used. I just wanna be ready if the examiner points to something and says "what's this?"
 
It is really, really unlikely that an examiner will refer to the B&W charts that are obsolete. However...

Go to the Aviation Weather Center page (www.aviationweather.com). Scroll way down to the bottom where there is seldom anything of import and click on Standard Briefing under User Tools. On the standard briefing page scroll way down to the bottom where it says "NWS Fax products." Click on that and you will have all of the B&W weather charts that you can stomach.

Bob Gardner
 
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StinkBug said:
I already took my written though, that's not the issue. I'm taking my checkride on tuesday, and Radar Summary is still on the PTS, as are stability charts, which I'm also having some trouble with even finding much info about. They aren't even mentioned in the training materials I've used. I just wanna be ready if the examiner points to something and says "what's this?"
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The Radar Summary Chart isn't too bad. I'd look over Prog charts. My DPE was big on weather and he asked me a lot about prog charts but YMMV. Make sure you know about icing. At least the examiners around here like going in depth with weather for the IR.
 
bobmrg said:
It is really, really unlikely that an examiner will refer to the B&W charts that are obsolete. However...

Go to the Aviation Weather Center page (www.aviationweather.com). Scroll way down to the bottom where there is seldom anything of import and click on Standard Briefing under User Tools. On the standard briefing page scroll way down to the bottom where it says "NWS Fax products." Click on that and you will have all of the B&W weather charts that you can stomach.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Bob, you're generally a wealth of info (love your book btw) but you seem to be reading my question wrong. I'm not asking about the old B&W Charts. I'm much more worried about them asking about the new color Radar Summary which is what I'm asking about. I cant seem to find any kind of legend or info on what the symbols on it mean. If they decide to ask about the old B&W one that's fine because I've actually been tested on that one before.
 
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StinkBug said:
Bob, you're generally a wealth of info (love your book btw) but you seem to be reading my question wrong. I'm not asking about the old B&W Charts. I'm much more worried about them asking about the new color Radar Summary which is what I'm asking about. I cant seem to find any kind of legend or info on what the symbols on it mean. If they decide to ask about the old B&W one that's fine because I've actually been tested on that one before.
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My bad. Everything you need to know is in Aviation Weather Services, AC 00-45. Plus, if you go to www.aviationweather.com and select any observation or forecast and click on INFO in the upper right hand corner you will be deluged with information...but AWS is the primary source.

Bob
 
StinkBug said:
... I'm much more worried about them asking about the new color Radar Summary which is what I'm asking about. I cant seem to find any kind of legend or info on what the symbols on it mean.
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Not to be sounding overly harsh but if you're getting ready for checkride, I'm just wondering how at this stage of your instrument training that you have not gone over this with your instructor. It should have been part of every dual flight and especially your long instrument cross-country.

Weather and weather information services (how and where you obtain it and how to interpret it) is a BIG part of the instrument oral exam. You should be able to navigate the AWS site and know how to use all of the info that is there.

Methinks you need more preparation, but YMMV.
 
And here I was starting to get surprised that we might have a thread in the training forum where someone didn't call an instructor inadequate, or a student unprepared. :rolleyes2:

If you were paying attention you'd see that this has been discussed quite a bit in my training, but the reports themselves have changed. I came here looking for help, and admitted to not knowing something. Thankfully not everyone on here is just trying to boost their own ego by talking down to me. Thank you Bob and others who actually offered some assistance.

FWIW one of the methods my instructor employs is to test me on things, and when I don't know the answer he tells me to go home and find the answer. It sticks in your head a lot better when you have to work to find the answer, at least for me anyways. This is one of those times, but so far everything I've been finding pertains to the old charts, not the new.
 
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StinkBug said:
And here I was starting to get surprised that we might have a thread in the training forum where someone didn't call an instructor inadequate, or a student unprepared. :rolleyes2:
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Well, what would you call it if the instructor neglected to teach it and/or you don't know it right prior to checkride?

:dunno:

I'm sincerely sorry if it comes off as condescending, but an instructor that sends a student to checkride without being sure that the student has all of the needed skills (and in the case of an instrument ride, a very thorough knowledge of weather info sources and how to interpret the information) has not done his job.

Mike
 
StinkBug said:
And here I was starting to get surprised that we might have a thread in the training forum where someone didn't call an instructor inadequate, or a student unprepared. :rolleyes2:

If you were paying attention you'd see that this has been discussed quite a bit in my training, but the reports themselves have changed. I came here looking for help, and admitted to not knowing something. Thankfully not everyone on here is just trying to boost their own ego by talking down to me. Thank you Bob and others who actually offered some assistance.

FWIW one of the methods my instructor employs is to test me on things, and when I don't know the answer he tells me to go home and find the answer. It sticks in your head a lot better when you have to work to find the answer, at least for me anyways. This is one of those times, but so far everything I've been finding pertains to the old charts, not the new.
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Are you looking at AC 00-45G? There have been changes since original publication. The ASA reprint of the book has a full page of changes.

Bob Gardner
 
MikeELP said:
Well, what would you call it if the instructor neglected to teach it and/or you don't know it right prior to checkride?

:dunno:

I'm sincerely sorry if it comes off as condescending, but an instructor that sends a student to checkride without being sure that the student has all of the needed skills (and in the case of an instrument ride, a very thorough knowledge of weather info sources and how to interpret the information) has not done his job.

Mike
Click to expand...

Well it does come off as condescending, especially since he hasn't sent me off to take my checkride. He sent me home to find and learn the info. This is the Pilot Training forum right? Isn't this the place for questions about pilot training? Or did I read the forum heading wrong? I came here after spending a lot of time looking and only finding info on outdated charts. Seemed like a reasonable thing to do, but apparently it's asking too much, at least for you.

So here's a question for you since you seem to think I'm asking a stupid question that I should know already. What does the little wind barb looking symbol on the new color radar summary signify. I've provided a picture with an arrow just so there's no confusion.

Here's a thought, if you're gonna come into the pilot training forum and read an honest question from someone who is asking for assistance, maybe it'd be nice if you actually offered some assistance, or if not just don't waste your time posting to begin with.
 

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bobmrg said:
Are you looking at AC 00-45G? There have been changes since original publication. The ASA reprint of the book has a full page of changes.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Yes I am Bob. The list of changes doesn't mention anything about radar charts, though it does mention the removal of the section on the Lifted Index, which explains the lack of info I've found on that. The section I've found on Radar Summary charts still shows the old B&W chart. I wont claim to have been through every single page, but I have been looking and haven't found it yet.

EDIT: Though I just got my copy of AWS a couple months ago it looks like they issued "change 2" to AC00-45G last October, and I was sent Change 1. I'm sure this explains the issue. Might have to give King Schools a call and ask why I was sent outdated materials well after the new stuff was issued.
 
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Late breaking news!! Go to www.faa.gov and type Aviation Weather Services in the search box. On the next screen, scroll down to where it says "Aviation Weather Servics (PDF)." Click on that and you will get Changes 1 and 2...Change 2 is from October of last year.

Bob
 
LOL, I just found that Bob, check my edit above. Thanks!
 
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StinkBug said:
So here's a question for you since you seem to think I'm asking a stupid question that I should know already. What does the little wind barb looking symbol on the new color radar summary signify. I've provided a picture with an arrow just so there's no confusion..
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OK...here, I'll spoon feed.

The cell indicated with your red arrow is moving to the NNW at 30 knots with cloud tops at 41,000 feet.

Did I pass?

:D
 
Actually, no you didn't. Those aren't cloud tops, they are echo tops. I got that one wrong on my PPL checkride and it stuck in my mind because of that. Funny how you remember things when you get them wrong. :)
 
StinkBug said:
Actually, no you didn't. Those aren't cloud tops, they are echo tops. I got that one wrong on my PPL checkride and it stuck in my mind because of that. Funny how you remember things when you get them wrong. :)
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Yea...you're a funny guy.

So NOW do you know what the little wind barby things with the little flag things mean????
 
I do, and that was actually my assumption all along. The problem is I was unable to find anything to back up that assumption.
 
StinkBug said:
I do, and that was actually my assumption all along. The problem is I was unable to find anything to back up that assumption.
Click to expand...

Go back to post #11. Under Observations, click on Radar. As I suggest in post #11, click on INFO at the upper right. This is part of what you will see:

"Radar Coded Message Composite Image Help

The display is an image representation of the Nexrad radar reflectivity overlayed with cloud tops and centroid movement. The Nexrad Radar Coded Message (RCM) product originates as an automated text message generated at each NWS radar site. The RCM reflectivity data has spatial resolution of about 12 km and is updated every 30 minutes. The RCM is a legacy product which will be replaced sometime in the near future. The raw RCM has considerable false echoes, so an automated process that checks the RCM for meteorological validity when compared to current satellite images, synoptic conditions, neighboring radar sites, and lightning.

The displayed image is the edited reflectivity. The RCM includes the max top for each radar's area of coverage. The other tops shown on the display are derived from the satellite images at the centers of convective activity. Movements shown are the radar centroid movements as generated by the Nexrad processor.

NOTE: The echo tops shown can in some cases be erroneous. The algorithm that computes this value uses any echo within the range of the radar. This can lead to spurious values when precipitation is far from the site. Values greater than 50,000 feet (500 on the plot) can be disregarded especially if their locations don't correspond to any precipitation.

The images are updated twice hourly and are posted at HH:15 and HH:45. The main radar page will show the latest image or loop the latest 4 hours of images."

Bob
 
According to ASA's curriculum director, who will be traveling to DC to meet with the question writers next week, radar summary chart questions have been removed from ALL knowledge exams (together with ADF, TWEB, etc).

Bob Gardner
 
It would be nice if they went ahead and removed them from the PTS as well.
 
Just as an update, this WAS brought up in the oral portion of my Checkride today.
 
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