Race to an EV truck - skin in the game edition

FastEddieB said:
I’ll refrain from debating proposed tax credits for EV’s. Let’s move that to its own thread to avoid getting political in this one.

Thanks.
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I don’t need the debate either. Just got a little deep with all the discussion about how to maximize tax credits to buy a toy. I couldn’t help it.

Genuinely hope you enjoy that truck when you take delivery.
 
Apropos of nothing, Rivian is just up the road from me in Bloomington, in the former Mitsubishi plant.

I was very close to pre ordering an f150 lightning, but thought better of it. My pickup hasn't been more than 45 miles from home in 20 years, so an electric would make a lot of sense. The problem for me is all the electronic nannies in modern vehicles. I have a seed tender that I tow in the spring that weighs around 12,500 lbs loaded. This is well in excess of the rated capacity of my 97 Chevy K2500, but it handles it fine at low speed. I have a suspicion the lightning would refuse to move and store a warranty- voiding code. Im also pretty sure it won't last 25+ years. Guess I'll keep the old Chevy running. It's probably better for the environment anyway.
 
I ordered a cyber truck. I don't know when I'll take delivery but when I do, the first thing I'll be doing is making the suspension as low as possible and never taking it off the pavement. I have no plans to use it as a truck since I just bought a new f150. I want thr cybertruck to look like a modern day retro DeLorean or something from the wedge shaped car era. I really think it will make a better looking car than a truck and as it's stands now I don't want to fit in with the crowd. When I'm at a stop light and I see 5 or more model S and 3s all around me I feel like we are getting pretty close to being Star Belly Sneeches.
 
There are definitely some benefits to electric/hybrid for certain applications. We spent Thanksgiving in NYC, and the air quality was noticeably better vs. when I was a kid. The city busses are now all hybrid as opposed to 2-stroke Detroit Diesels (which I love, but were not good choices). The commuters busses (NJ Transit, Bronx lines, etc.) from what I can tell are still mostly pure diesels and many still pre-emissions, but at least they're all 4-stroke and computer controlled from the common rail direct injection period, rather than mechanical 2-strokes. That's the biggest improvement. Taxis are now mostly hybrid and I've seen Teslas around. NYC is an example of where this tech makes sense, because of the population density and thus resultant pollution. I can't fault it there.

For us, I still am overall not seeing the benefit. For a toad to tow behind the RV, an EV might make some sense, but we do enough things with the toad (and it gets beat up enough behind the RV) that we don't want something too new, too nice, or under warranty. In talking about a replacement for my wife's Mercedes, the idea of a Wrangler Unlimited was briefly discussed. But to get one with a Hemi you're talking about nearly $80k, the V6 is meh, the diesel doesn't have my attention, and then you're putting that nice and expensive of a vehicle behind an RV where it will get some level of abuse from road debris flung up at it (the Land Rover has gotten its share of abuse).

I don't see us getting an EV anytime soon. My Ram will be a "forever truck" since I can't buy another one like it. We generally prefer used vehicles so we'll probably keep in that direction for a while.
 
Rich Holt said:
2022 F150 Base $29,290 (tax credit $0) net $29,290
2022 F150 Lightning $39,974 (tax credit $7,500, possibly $11,500) net $32,474 (Your taxable income needs to be at least $46,000 to get the entire $7500)

"Premium" $3184 or about 6 months of gas

F150 ~ $.15 per mile for fuel ($3 a gallon)
Lightning ~ $.09 per mile ($.17 per kWh)

Looks like that premium will fade in less than a year of operating. Even sooner if you factor in things like oil changes.

As far as the range when towing going down, I'm not sure how you quantify "unusable." The range of the ICE also goes down significantly when towing, especially at max towing/payload. It's physics. I would not buy an electric truck to pull a camper cross country. I see the majority of half-ton trucks towing 1 person to and from whatever. I've owned 5 trucks and can count on one hand the number of times that I've towed something. YMMV
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At a savings of $.06/mile, your payback period is more than 50,000 miles.
 
Lindberg said:
At a savings of $.06/mile, your payback period is more than 50,000 miles.
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Or less than 30,000 if you use the national average cost of electricity, or even much less than that if you consider the cost of oil changes and other maintenance that doesn't apply to EVs. MY half-ton was burning through nearly $400 in gas a month. I was also being generous with the mpg for a half-ton. Ford claims 20mpg.

I still hold that the "premium" disappears pretty quickly.
 
NJP_MAN said:
I don't know when I'll take delivery but when I do, the first thing I'll be doing is making the suspension as low as possible and never taking it off the pavement.
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The Rivian allows you to adjust ride height on the fly:

...all Rivian vehicles have independent air suspension which allows for 6.5 inches of vertical travel — as low as 7.9 inches or as high as 14.4 inches — to optimize a vehicle’s ride height for improved handling, comfort, aerodynamics and stability with varying payloads. Automatic ride-height leveling also balances a vehicle for better handling when towing heavy loads.

I think the CyberTruck has similar adjustability.

We plan on road wheel/tires and using ether primarily as a car that happens to have an truck bed tagging along. Both it and the CyberTruck have solid tonneau covers and I expect either way ours will end up being closed out of the time.
 
I have a deposit on a Cybertruck...mostly because I live near LA and the body is supposed to be bullet proof. And the novelty of it. But not much else.

I have an employee with a Hyundai Kona EV. She likes it, but discovered the downside of EV in that the last 20% of range depletes quickly and 5% range really means "turtle mode and you're not going much further." She got stuck 1 block from the office and had to wait an hour for a tow to a charger.

Then consider the emergencies around here where power is cut... Santa Ana wind events, wildfires, earthquakes. That leaves zero ability to recharge. A different work colleague just got a Tesla Model 3 when we had the SoCal fires and power was cut in her neighborhood and she had to evacuate. She had barely enough power to make it to a hotel about 30 miles away. She still has the Model 3 but has purchased another internal combustion engined vehicle.

On the other hand, I have a 2002 Ford Explorer 4x4 that gets 12 mpg city, maybe 20 mpg highway. But it was cheap and for the difference in price of the Cybertruck and the Explorer, at today's $5.19 a gallon in SoCal, I can buy 8,285 gallons of 91 octane, or travel 99,421 city miles before the initial purchase costs balance out. For longer drives, I have a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI that gets almost 50 mpg on the highway. Very tough to justify an EV.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm sure EV's will be the preferred mode of transportation at some point. I have no problem with that. But the battery problem still has not been solved. They are getting better, but we are not there quite yet.
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The batteries are pretty good now. Yeah, they are getting better and still have plenty of room to improve. There are other things that need to change for higher EV usage. More charging stations, but more importantly a way for renters to charge at home.

The vast majority of driving is local. That can be supported by people charging their cars' batteries at home, generally at night while they are sleeping and the power needs for other things are lower. The "range anxiety" is all about those few long vacation trips for the most part. There are some that drive a lot for work, but the vast majority of people only need 200+ miles in one day for just a handful of days a year.

Here's an announcement about a significant improvement in the cable for charging the batteries:


If charging is down to 5 minutes that's pretty much on par with filling a gas tank.
 
So I leased a Niro EV mid summer. Currently have around 6k miles on it. In commute traffic the mileage indicator is rather spot on regardless of battery charge level. Turn on the AC, heat or drive uphill, the mileage drastically decreases. Drive downhill and the mileage goes up. The heated or ventilated seats don't seem to impact mileage.

We have a mountain house at about 5500 feet ASL that is approximately 165 miles away with trip starting at practically sea level. I think full charge is 260 miles. We can make the three plus hour drive from sea level to 5500 ASL with a full charge and still have at least 50 miles remaining. We can use the slow charger (110v) for about 24 hours to get us enough charge to make it home with the regenerative breaking heading down hill or full charge with the level 2 overnight if we aren't heading straight home.

It is a great around town car. We charge mostly for free at my workplace or the wife's clients. We only really "top off" at home so we can start the drive up the mountain with a full charge. Adding a 40 amp circuit was easy enough DIY so we could have a level 2 charger (i.e. get full charge from zero over night). The thing I like most is not waking up in the morning and forgetting i have to stop for gas or having to get gas on way home after work in rush hour traffic.

I live in a moderate climate so cold weather impacting battery charge isn't an issue. For longer trips, I'll consider the EV charging options along the way as stopping every three hours for a 30 minute dc charge doesn't bother me. For the most part, all day or multi day roadtrips is still ICE powered. If you haven't driven an EV, even our little grocery getter/commute car is impressively quick, smooth and silent.

That is my experience with a non-high end ev. Wouldn't be my only car but, it is the car that gets the most work in a two driver household. I'm curious what my opinion will be in a year or two.
 
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Rich Holt said:
Or less than 30,000 if you use the national average cost of electricity, or even much less than that if you consider the cost of oil changes and other maintenance that doesn't apply to EVs. MY half-ton was burning through nearly $400 in gas a month. I was also being generous with the mpg for a half-ton. Ford claims 20mpg.

I still hold that the "premium" disappears pretty quickly.
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I was just using your math.
 
Lindberg said:
I was just using your math.
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Yeah, that's cool. I used what I pay for electricity for those calculations and this state is the second worse for that. Somehow.
 
NoBShere said:
So I leased a Niro EV mid summer. Currently have around 6k miles on it. In commute traffic the mileage indicator is rather spot on regardless of battery charge level. Turn on the AC, heat or drive uphill, the mileage drastically decreases. Drive downhill and the mileage goes up. The heated or ventilated seats don't seem to impact mileage.
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I would expect uphill to noticeably impact range, but not as much on the AC/heat. Some sure, but not drastically. AC is definitely needed regularly here in Atlanta. Fortunately my drives are short around town.

NoBShere said:
We have a mountain house at about 5500 feet ASL that is approximately 165 miles away with trip starting at practically sea level. I think full charge is 260 miles. We can make the three plus hour drive from sea level to 5500 ASL with a full charge and still have at least 50 miles remaining. We can use the slow charger (110v) for about 24 hours to get us enough charge to make it home with the regenerative breaking heading down hill or full charge with the level 2 overnight if we aren't heading straight home.
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The EPA range number for the Niro is 239 miles, but I've watched a report that a group in England did and they showed it getting around 255 miles, so pretty much what you see. They drove several EV cars basically until "empty". The Tesla went the furthest, but did the worst compared to its EPA rating.

NoBShere said:
That is my experience with a non-high end ev. Wouldn't be my only car but, it is the car that gets the most work in a two driver household. I'm curious what my opinion will be in a year or two.
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We are thinking of keeping one ICE car as well. At least until we decide we don't need it. Normally I'd say we could rent a car if we need it, but right now the rental prices are high to insane. I was looking at minivans for a Thanksgiving trip with the family and Hertz wanted $265/day plus fees. :eek: Ended up getting a premium SUV, VW Atlas, from Alamo at $110/day plus fees. Once rental car rates get back to normal renting something else for a longer drive might be an option again.

I need to go to a dealership and try one out. Including bringing some carry-on luggage with us. We were in Albuquerque earlier this year and rented a CUV that is at least the size of my wife's CX-5 (or at least it looked bigger), but had far smaller luggage space. In the CX-5 we can put the carry-on's in wheels first to the back seat and they fit easily. They did not fit in the rental CUV that way. My BIL and I had to look at our luggage a bit and carefully arrange things to fit. I certainly want to avoid that on a car I own.
 
FastEddieB said:
The Rivian allows you to adjust ride height on the fly:

...all Rivian vehicles have independent air suspension which allows for 6.5 inches of vertical travel — as low as 7.9 inches or as high as 14.4 inches — to optimize a vehicle’s ride height for improved handling, comfort, aerodynamics and stability with varying payloads. Automatic ride-height leveling also balances a vehicle for better handling when towing heavy loads.

I think the CyberTruck has similar adjustability.

We plan on road wheel/tires and using ether primarily as a car that happens to have an truck bed tagging along. Both it and the CyberTruck have solid tonneau covers and I expect either way ours will end up being closed out of the time.
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7.9 inches is about 3.5 inches to high. It also depends on the size of the wheels I would fit to it. Probably would have to go with 22 inch wheels, it's a shame because I think the cybertruck wheels actually look pretty neat too. I think it will be a fun canvas to buy and immediately cut the body up to fit wider fenders and 3 piece wheels.
 
eman1200 said:
When Rivian stock hits in the 20’s I’ll buy it.
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“Never try to catch a falling knife.”

Our small position in Rivian is down over 50% right now, and I’m no longer optimistic in the company’s prospects. I won’t be buying any more shares in the foreseeable future, but will probably hold onto our shares for now.
 
I just passed one on my way to drop the kids off this morning. First one I've seen in the wild obviously. They're distinctive.
 
Jim K said:
I just passed one on my way to drop the kids off this morning. First one I've seen in the wild obviously. They're distinctive.
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I'm seeing them more often in town but this is where they're made so...the latest news has certainly stirred up conversations here.
 
My parents have an early deposit on the Ford Lighting (and also the Mach-E), a brother also has one on the Ford lighting, Rivan SUV and Cybertruck. He is not sure which he is going with....

Kinda fun to sit on the sidelines and give him all sorts of grief. :D

Tim
 
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