Questions about projecting de-icing/anti-icing costs (PC-12s, King Air 350s)

[alexcr]

I have a few questions related to projecting de-icing/anti-icing costs for Pilatus PC-12s and King Air 350s. I apologize if some of these are a bit basic...

1) I know de-icing/anti-icing is most commonly done shortly before takeoff, but is there ever a need for it at other times while the plane is parked at an airport? For example, if the plane is going to be parked for two to four days, are there other times it would potentially need de-icing/anti-icing besides shortly before takeoff? Or is this pretty uncommon?

2) Do folks have a rough rule of thumb for predicting the percentage likelihood that de-icing/anti-icing will be necessary during a trip? For example, if you're looking a few months out at an airport and you know that the average high/low temperatures that time of year are X°/Y° and the average monthly precipitation that time of year is Z inches, you generally assume there's a P% likelihood that de-icing/anti-icing will be necessary, etc..

3) Does the above percentage prediction change at all if you'll almost always be flying out in the late afternoon or early evening? (My understanding is that de-icing/anti-icing is at least somewhat less likely to be necessary later in the day than earlier.)

4) On the low end and high end, how many total gallons of fluid do the Pilatus PC-12s and King Air 350s typically need, respectively, for a single session of de-icing/anti-icing? Let's assume the aircraft is parked at a mountain airport for two to four days during winter.

5) How much do de-icing/anti-icing fluid prices vary at a single airport from year to year? If I know what the fluid costs at an airport are right now, is it safe to assume that they'll be roughly similar one year out? Or can they vary drastically?

6) It seems like Type I and Type IV fluids are most commonly used? For a typical de-icing/anti-icing session, what percentage of the total fluid used is typically Type I versus Type IV?

7) Particularly silly question, but assuming the home airport is in a temperate climate and the destination airport is in a mountain climate, is there ever a need to perform de-icing/anti-icing at the home airport in "preparation" for the conditions that await? My sense is that the answer is no, but just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

By the way, I know that hangars, especially heated hangars, can be a favorable alternative to de-icing/anti-icing. But I also know that overnight hangar space isn't always guaranteed to be available, so I just want to be prepared for both scenarios.

Thanks in advance and sorry for all the questions!

 

[Groundpounder]

You're getting into the depth of questions to where the answers aren't going to be free any more, but I'll give you a little info.

1. You don't need to deice an airplane that isn't going to fly.
2. Nope
3. If you fly in the morning and the airplane was sitting out all night, you'll need to deice to remove frost.
4. Too many variables to answer that. The range is 5 gallons to 500 gallons. Depends on the amount and type of precip.
5. They probably won't vary that much.
6. Type I is de-ice, type IV is anti ice. Type I is always used, type IV is used during active precip to prevent frozen precip from adhering to the airplane. It is designed to shear off the aircraft around 80 knots or so. Type I is used to clean the airplane off before type IV is applied.
7. Nope

 

[jayhawk74]

You can lower your de-ice cost by arranging to put the aircraft into a hangar overnight. That way you don't have any overnight frost or snow to remove.

 

[alexcr]

4. Too many variables to answer that. The range is 5 gallons to 500 gallons. Depends on the amount and type of precip.

Whoa. So you could conceivably pay in the range of $12,500 to de-ice a turboprop? That actually happens?

 

[Groundpounder]

Whoa. So you could conceivably pay in the range of $12,500 to de-ice a turboprop? That actually happens?

That would be on the high end, but its possible. Freezing rain, plus snow plus whatever other frozen garbage mother nature can come up with can be very hard to remove from an aircraft. Couple that with an inexperienced person in the deice bucket that is a little too liberal with the spray and you're at 500 gallons. It's definitely not the norm, but it's something that could happen.

I've been part of an operation that emptied two 1000 gallon deice trucks trying to clean off a 727 before.

 

[alexcr]

You can lower your de-ice cost by arranging to put the aircraft into a hangar overnight. That way you don't have any overnight frost or snow to remove.

Yeah, I'm all for this. I'm just uncertain whether hangar spots will be available, given the busy-ness at these airports during this time of year.

For regular, non-heated hangars, is de-icing still necessary sometimes? (I ask because you wrote "lower your de-ice costs," as opposed to eliminate.

I assume heated hangars pretty much make de-icing unnecessary? If so, and if the plane is spending two or three nights at the airport, do you only need to use (and pay for) the heated hangar the night before departure?

 

[alexcr]

That would be on the high end, but its possible. Freezing rain, plus snow plus whatever other frozen garbage mother nature can come up with can be very hard to remove from an aircraft. Couple that with an inexperienced person in the deice bucket that is a little too liberal with the spray and you're at 500 gallons. It's definitely not the norm, but it's something that could happen.

That's scary! I wish there were some kind of de-icing insurance you could purchase for flights, just to have some pricing predictability and to avoid a worst case scenario like the one you're describing.

 

[Ted]

In 3,000 hours and 11 years of flying piston twins and turboprops all over, in the winter, to snowy places, I’ve never once decided a plane. I’ve always been able to arrange a hangar when I thought it would be needed.

 

[alexcr]

In 3,000 hours and 11 years of flying piston twins and turboprops all over, in the winter, to snowy places, I’ve never once decided a plane. I’ve always been able to arrange a hangar when I thought it would be needed.

That's encouraging. I was chatting yesterday with the manager at ASE, and he was making it sound like hangar space is rarely available there without a reservation far in advance, so that's part of what got me concerned.

 

[Ted]

That's encouraging. I was chatting yesterday with the manager at ASE, and he was making it sound like hangar space is rarely available there without a reservation far in advance, so that's part of what got me concerned.

Aspen is one of the few exceptions where you are not likely to get space. But if you’re flying into Aspen, you should be expecting to spend a lot of money no matter what...

 

[Groundpounder]

Yeah, I'm all for this. I'm just uncertain whether hangar spots will be available, given the busy-ness at these airports during this time of year.

Speaking of hangars, do heated hangars pretty much make de-icing unnecessary? If so, and if the plane is spending two or three nights at the airport, do you only need to use (and pay for) the heated hangar the night before departure?

If there is active frozen precip, you'll probably still need to be deiced after coming out of the hangar.

You can get away with just hangaring the night before, but you'll need to winterize the airplanes if they are staying out, i.e. remove anything that could freeze inside.

 

[Groundpounder]

That's encouraging. I was chatting yesterday with the manager at ASE, and he was making it sound like hangar space is rarely available there without a reservation far in advance, so that's part of what got me concerned.

Any time I have had a trip to ASE that involved staying overnight, we repo'ed to the Denver area.

Hangar is very limited in JAC as well, and BZN runs out of space on busy weekends.

 

[alexcr]

Aspen is one of the few exceptions where you are not likely to get space. But if you’re flying into Aspen, you should be expecting to spend a lot of money no matter what...

Makes sense. Any other winter resort exceptions that come to mind? Perhaps EGE, JAC, and SUN?

 

[Groundpounder]

Makes sense. Any other winter resort exceptions that come to mind? Perhaps EGE, JAC, and SUN?

Ski country in the winter is very expensive. Hotels, hangar, food, etc etc.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Adding a bit to @Groundpounder's already-good answer:

3) Does the above percentage prediction change at all if you'll almost always be flying out in the late afternoon or early evening? (My understanding is that de-icing/anti-icing is at least somewhat less likely to be necessary later in the day than earlier.)

3. If you fly in the morning and the airplane was sitting out all night, you'll need to deice to remove frost.

Read up on "radiation fog". Frost happens in a very similar manner: On a clear, cold night, surfaces radiate heat out into space and become cooler than the surrounding air, promoting the formation of dew and frost. During the day, or when it's cloudy at night, this doesn't really happen.

6) It seems like Type I and Type IV fluids are most commonly used? For a typical de-icing/anti-icing session, what percentage of the total fluid used is typically Type I versus Type IV?

6. Type I is de-ice, type IV is anti ice. Type I is always used, type IV is used during active precip to prevent frozen precip from adhering to the airplane. It is designed to shear off the aircraft around 80 knots or so. Type I is used to clean the airplane off before type IV is applied.

There's information out there about II and III, but pretty much Type I and Type IV are the only ones you'll see. Type I is to clean off what's on the plane - It's heated, but fairly thin. Type IV is thick, green, goopy stuff that will stay on the plane until just about liftoff, at which point the top surfaces of the plane are no longer going to accumulate anything, just the front surfaces that are protected by the airplane's on-board equipment.

By the way, I know that hangars, especially heated hangars, can be a favorable alternative to de-icing/anti-icing. But I also know that overnight hangar space isn't always guaranteed to be available, so I just want to be prepared for both scenarios.

Hangars are often cheaper and easier, and if your operation is going to be going to the same airports a lot, it'd be worth trying to build, buy, or rent a hangar full-time.

In 3,000 hours and 11 years of flying piston twins and turboprops all over, in the winter, to snowy places, I’ve never once decided a plane. I’ve always been able to arrange a hangar when I thought it would be needed.

Same here for operating my own flights... But when flying professionally on a schedule, not so much! There are scenarios where I would have merely waited an hour or two for the precip to stop if I were flying somewhere myself, but when passengers have meetings to get to it's a different story - Generally, the cost of de-icing is less important than getting to the meeting on time. Load up, pull out, Type I, Type IV, and go.

That's encouraging. I was chatting yesterday with the manager at ASE, and he was making it sound like hangar space is rarely available there without a reservation far in advance, so that's part of what got me concerned.

There are definitely places out there such as ASE that will be crazy busy and have no hangar space available ever. You will need to be prepared for both situations.

Worse yet are the places that not only don't have hangar space, they don't have de-icing capabilities - These are the smaller airports where there isn't enough traffic for the FBO (or the city, in some cases) to buy a de-ice truck, train personnel in its use, and have the fluids available. For those, you'll need to plan ahead and watch the weather like a hawk so that you can either reposition to an airport with hangar/deice until the weather has passed, or make some sort of other alternative arrangement.

 

[alexcr]

Adding a bit to @Groundpounder's already-good answer:

This is very informative stuff. Thank you, @flyingcheesehead.

 

[jayhawk74]

Yeah, I'm all for this. I'm just uncertain whether hangar spots will be available, given the busy-ness at these airports during this time of year.
For regular, non-heated hangars, is de-icing still necessary sometimes? (I ask because you wrote "lower your de-ice costs," as opposed to eliminate.
I assume heated hangars pretty much make de-icing unnecessary? If so, and if the plane is spending two or three nights at the airport, do you only need to use (and pay for) the heated hangar the night before departure?

I said lower the cost because if there is snow or other frozen precipitation falling when you take the aircraft out of the hangar you still have to deice. If there is no precipitation then of course there is no deice needed as there is nothing to remove. Even putting the aircraft into an unheated hangar is an advantage because it doesn't collect any overnight frozen precipitation or frost. A big advantage to a heated hangar is that the aircraft, especially the engine oil, is not cold and we didn't have to remove the liquid catering from the aircraft overnight (I fly a PC-12 for a Fractional).