Question. Thought Provoking?

[SJP]

Well, I don't know about you but that one sentence sure seems to describe the religion of my earlier childhood rather well But I'd hate for this discussion to get bogged down into that aspect.

Hate to say it, but mine too. Raised Church of England, won a number of Sunday School awards and so on - finally tired of always being under the threat of damnation...

I'm with Chuck, Agnostic..although thats not really 100% right either.

Basically, I believe that there may well be some superior intelligence out there, either now, or in the past, that may have helped us along the way...but I also believe that (he/she/it) has absoulutely no interest about whether I genuflect when entering that particular pile of bricks, or if I eat anything other than fish on fridays in the spring.

 

[alaskaflyer]

As alaskaflyer mentioned, childhood experiences. You may not believe it, but it's something being taught to children across the south. I'm speaking from my experience of a childhood spent in churches both Presbyterian and Baptist. Jesus saved you, but a life of immorality still resulted in your soul being damned to hell.

Grew up in the South too.

I am NOT bashing the religion, but visit a Pentecostal church sometime. Or even some Baptist ones. That sentence sums it up.

 

[poadeleted1]

Does it matter?

It does.

 

[MSmith]

As alaskaflyer mentioned, childhood experiences. You may not believe it, but it's something being taught to children across the south. I'm speaking from my experience of a childhood spent in churches both Presbyterian and Baptist. Jesus saved you, but a life of immorality still resulted in your soul being damned to hell.

I think you missed the boat on Presbyterianism. (For that matter, so did I until I studied this stuff in college)

Presbyterians believe in pre-destination - that you are either elected to heaven or not at the time you are born. However, they also state that you can't know which until it's too late. Additionally, Presbyterians believe in Total Depravity, which means that you can't help but sin, and everything that you do is sin because you can't possibility operate without sin. However, the good thing is that Jesus died for all of us and that covers us for our sins.

Presbyterianism also says that you should try to be good anyway because whether or not we are "elected", we should behave that way to get as close to God as possible.

"We must hope well of all, and not rashly judge any man to be a reprobate." - John Calvin
In other words - you alone are the judge of your salvation.

Parts of this from Presbyterian 101. PC(USA)

 

[Greebo]

Presbyterians believe in pre-destination - that you are either elected to heaven or not at the time you are born.

Hold it a second... that makes no sense...

If you're pre-destined to heaven, then you can be as bad as you want and still go.

And if you're pre-destined to hell, then you can be as good as Mother Teresa and still burn.

So why strive for anything with that outlook??

Seems very defeatist to me - are you sure thats the view of the Presbys??

 

[Frank Browne]

Hold it a second... that makes no sense...

If you're pre-destined to heaven, then you can be as bad as you want and still go.

And if you're pre-destined to hell, then you can be as good as Mother Teresa and still burn.

So why strive for anything with that outlook??

Seems very defeatist to me - are you sure thats the view of the Presbys??

So Chuck, are you a glass half empty or a glass half full kinda guy??

 

[MSmith]

Hold it a second... that makes no sense...

If you're pre-destined to heaven, then you can be as bad as you want and still go.

And if you're pre-destined to hell, then you can be as good as Mother Teresa and still burn.

So why strive for anything with that outlook??

Seems very defeatist to me - are you sure thats the view of the Presbys??

All true. The tricky part is that neither you nor anybody else KNOWS whether you are elected.

By this belief, the Presbys have removed "going to hell" as a threat to force good behavior. Instead, you are expected to behave morally (from this standpoint as defined by the Bible and the church's Confessions and other statements) anyway to be as Christ-like as possible.

Presbyterians believe VERY STRONGLY in free will.

 

[Dart]

Hold it a second... that makes no sense...

If you're pre-destined to heaven, then you can be as bad as you want and still go.

And if you're pre-destined to hell, then you can be as good as Mother Teresa and still burn.

So why strive for anything with that outlook??

Seems very defeatist to me - are you sure thats the view of the Presbys??

Sigh. I tried to avoid religious discussion....

I think (that means it is my opinion, and we all know about those) part of the problem is MSmith is using the terms "election" with "predestination" interchangably. I am neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian. I belong to no denomination seeing as how God left his Word for all to read. I respect early and modern theologians but they do not carry the wieght of Scripture.

But I digress, "elected" before time, that is, a person born that will without doubt come to Jesus at some time because was selected by Jesus is different from "predestination" where we all are automatons of God playing out our inevitable role.

The doctrine of election does not mean that the "unelected" can not be saved. It does, unfortunately make it unlikely. Pharoeh Ramses of Mosaic fame is the perfect example. God knew Pharoeh would not change but rather would become evermore hardened against Him. Rather than force Pharoeh to (against his will) love Him , He used Pharoeh's hate to His glory. What man choses for ill is eventually turned by God for God's glory. Pharoeh had many opportunities to chose God's will but did not.

Scripture is quite clear that once saved in the blood of Jesus you can not lose that salvation. However, you can have a meager reward if you do not store your treasures in heaven. Works will never result in salvation. However, true salvation will leave the believer changed to perform the good works that are the outward effect of saving Grace. Believers will stumble, but their overall life will be one of striving for better than they were.

Since only God knows the heart, no man can judge the true salvation of another by merely looking at works. Many will claim salvation, and present a self-serving facade of good works to hide a dead heart.

 

[poadeleted1]

Thanks for keeping this at a sensible level. I am learning as I read about people and seeing, in a small way, why even though we are all one, we are all different. Seriously, thanks all.

And PS Dart - thanks for weighing in with your writings. You have something to offer that is part of the mix. Not everyone wants to be converted or will be saved. You can toss them a rope or an idea. How they respond is a matter that is up to them. Me, I am an infidel. I knopw there is value in who I am, what I am and what I believe. I will be judged at some point. I hope that in the big ledger I am not in the red.

 

[poadeleted3]

Hold it a second... that makes no sense...

If you're pre-destined to heaven, then you can be as bad as you want and still go.

And if you're pre-destined to hell, then you can be as good as Mother Teresa and still burn.

So why strive for anything with that outlook??

Seems very defeatist to me - are you sure thats the view of the Presbys??

Certainly not what I've been taught. I've been taught, and believe, that the one real choice we have in life that really matters is whether to accept Jesus Christ as savior, one of the few things in our lives we can choose. Doing so is the only path to heaven, failure to do so results in failure to achieve salvation, no matter the good works you do on Earth. We are not expected to be perfect, in fact cannot be perfect, but our sins are forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice. There are some God uses for his purposes that he knows will not make the good choice, such as Pharoah that Dart mentioned and Judas Iscariot. They have the choice, and the chance, to change and choose to follow God and Jesus, but there are some folks that just will not, and some like Judas that are simply faithless to their friends, comrades and their own beliefs.

 

[Missa]

Certainly not what I've been taught. I've been taught, and believe, that the one real choice we have in life that really matters is whether to accept Jesus Christ as savior, one of the few things in our lives we can choose. Doing so is the only path to heaven, failure to do so results in failure to achieve salvation, no matter the good works you do on Earth. We are not expected to be perfect, in fact cannot be perfect, but our sins are forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice. There are some God uses for his purposes that he knows will not make the good choice, such as Pharoah that Dart mentioned and Judas Iscariot. They have the choice, and the chance, to change and choose to follow God and Jesus, but there are some folks that just will not, and some like Judas that are simply faithless to their friends, comrades and their own beliefs.

Joe,

Will you share what your demoniation? This tread is intresting because I'm learning the little newances between the denominations. I was raised Presbterian, but I really never LEARNED the diffrences between that faith and the other denominations.

Missa

 

[gkainz]

Missa;
I grew up in the Lutheran church, spent time in the Baptist denomination and am now attending an Evangelical Covenant church http://www.covchurch.org I saw basic doctrine in all three that agree with Joe's statements above.

 

[poadeleted3]

Joe,

Will you share what your demoniation? This tread is intresting because I'm learning the little newances between the denominations. I was raised Presbterian, but I really never LEARNED the diffrences between that faith and the other denominations.

Missa

Christian Missionary Alliance. The beliefs I've learned are also closely duplicated in the Baptist churches I've been to, close enough that if I'm somewhere I can't find a CMA church we like I'll go there instead. I often find more differences between individual churches than I do some of the fairly closely related denominations.

 

[ScottM]

They have the choice, and the chance, to change and choose to follow God and Jesus, but there are some folks that just will not, and some like Judas that are simply faithless to their friends, comrades and their own beliefs.

Interesting....There is also the view of a Gnostic sect that believed Judas was to be praised.

....whose opinion has been revived by some modern writers in a more plausible form, maintained that Judas was really enlightened, and acted as he did in order that mankind might be redeemed by the death of Christ. For this reason they regarded him as worthy of gratitude and veneration. In the modern version of this theory it is suggested that Judas, who in common with the other disciples looked for a temporal kingdom of the Messias, did not anticipate the death of Christ, but wished to precipitate a crisis and hasten the hour of triumph, thinking that the arrest would provoke a rising of the people who would set Him free and place Him on the throne. In support of this they point to the fact that, when he found that Christ was condemned and given up to the Romans, he immediately repented of what he had done.

 

[ScottM]

Jesus saved you, but a life of immorality still resulted in your soul being damned to hell.

And here I thought he was just a nice Jewish boy, or at least that is what I have been told when I was little.

Courtesy of Wiki

Judaism's view of Jesus are that

• it is heresy to believe that he was divine, part of the Trinity, or a mediator to God;
• he was not the Messiah, as he did not fulfill the qualifications of the Messiah or Messianic prophecies; and
• he was not a prophet.

Some Jews doubt the historical existence of Jesus. Based on a Talmudic tradition[1] some[2] believed that Jesus lived 130 years prior to the date that Christians believe he lived, contradicting the Gospel's account.

 

[ScottM]

All true. The tricky part is that neither you nor anybody else KNOWS whether you are elected.

By this belief, the Presbys have removed "going to hell" as a threat to force good behavior. Instead, you are expected to behave morally (from this standpoint as defined by the Bible and the church's Confessions and other statements) anyway to be as Christ-like as possible.

Presbyterians believe VERY STRONGLY in free will.

Compare to Judaism

Jews believe that people are supposed to do
the best they can at being good. We do this because it is the right
thing to do--any personal gain is a side-effect. In fact, focussing on
issues of reward and punishment to some extent mitigates the good one
is doing by tainting it with selfish motives.

Jews also do not have the concept of Hell or punishment for bad deeds.

 

[MSmith]

Yup - they look more or less the same to me.

The bottom line is common to lots of religions and non-religious moralities - "Do good because it's the right thing to do".

 

[Greebo]

Thanks for keeping this at a sensible level. I am learning as I read about people and seeing, in a small way, why even though we are all one, we are all different. Seriously, thanks all.

Hear, hear!

 

[gkainz]

Yup - they look more or less the same to me.

The bottom line is common to lots of religions and non-religious moralities - "Do good because it's the right thing to do".

But what is "good" and what is "right" and what does one use as a standard of each?

What is "truth"? Webster says "truth" is "fidelity to an original or standard"

So, what original or standard does one (trying to avoid the generic "you" here) use to define "truth"?

 

[Greebo]

But what is "good" and what is "right" and what does one use as a standard of each?

Ultimately what is "good" and "right" is decided by the society that judges the actions of its members. We have a multi-thousand year history of learning, as a species, what works and what doesn't. We are obviously still learning.

Religion can teach us a lot about how to treat each other, even those of us who don't believe in religion.

 

[Dart]

Compare to Judaism


Jews also do not have the concept of Hell or punishment for bad deeds.

Well, careful there Scott. Jews have their own "denominational" issues. The Saduccees, Essenes, Nazarites were pretty much wiped out by the Romans, leaving, of all things, the Samaritans and Pharisees to carry on Hebrew traditions.

Reform? Liberal? Orthodox? Conservatives? Hasidic? Judaism as a faith is far from monolithic.

The issue of hell and the reward or punishment for behavior on earth is also not as clear cut as many Jews would have us believe. "Job" alone is good for hours (and centuries) of commentary. Re-read it and lets have a "Job" thread. (Well, not really, I have to work!)

 

[poadeleted3]

Well, careful there Scott. Jews have their own "denominational" issues. The Saduccees, Essenes, Nazarites were pretty much wiped out by the Romans, leaving, of all things, the Samaritans and Pharisees to carry on Hebrew traditions.

Reform? Liberal? Orthodox? Conservatives? Hasidic? Judaism as a faith is far from monolithic.

The issue of hell and the reward or punishment for behavior on earth is also not as clear cut as many Jews would have us believe. "Job" alone is good for hours (and centuries) of commentary. Re-read it and lets have a "Job" thread. (Well, not really, I have to work!)

And we mustn't forget that there are, in fact, Messianic Jews who do accept Jesus as Christ.

 

[ScottM]

Well, careful there Scott. Jews have their own "denominational" issues. The Saduccees, Essenes, Nazarites were pretty much wiped out by the Romans, leaving, of all things, the Samaritans and Pharisees to carry on Hebrew traditions.

Reform? Liberal? Orthodox? Conservatives? Hasidic? Judaism as a faith is far from monolithic.

The issue of hell and the reward or punishment for behavior on earth is also not as clear cut as many Jews would have us believe. "Job" alone is good for hours (and centuries) of commentary. Re-read it and lets have a "Job" thread. (Well, not really, I have to work!)

Yep there is a lot more there than meets the eye but the basic belief of Christian Hell is different, many tiems drastically. But I did not want to thread jack into a theological discussion of hell so I tried to keep it short but show a link from basic Jewish tenats to the demonational Christian ones we were discussing. Was not trying to creat primer on on Judaism for the group.

The issue we started with was one of where did our morals come from and are they based on religion of social structure.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see, or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't believe in?

Who is more irrational, a man who does not feel compelled to explain nature by inventing a supernatural being, or a man who in insulted that his god is left out in the cold by such an attitude?

 

[Dart]

Who is more irrational, a man who does not feel compelled to explain nature by inventing a supernatural being, or a man who in insulted that his god is left out in the cold by such an attitude?

The man who spent seventy-five dollars on 'Two Fingers' shots who wakes up in the next morning and his God wont take the hangover go away.

 

[ScottM]

And we mustn't forget that there are, in fact, Messianic Jews who do accept Jesus as Christ.

Yeah that could be a can of worms to open up discussions about that group.

I am not even sure how well their beliefs line up with any Christian group other than the belief in Jesus being the messiah. Mostly what I have seen are comparisions to Judaism.

 

[ScottM]

The man who spent seventy-five dollars on 'Two Fingers' shots who wakes up in the next morning and his God wont take the hangover go away.

My God only allows me to drink really good single malt scotch. $75 is only a couple of drinks therefore my God saved me from the hangover so he must be better than that guys God. Right??

 

[Dart]

My God only allows me to drink really good single malt scotch. $75 is only a couple of drinks therefore my God saved me from the hangover so he must be better than that guys God. Right??

I'm circumsized, can I join???

 

[gibbons]

Dart,

Too much information.

Chip

 

[Greebo]

Dart,

Too much information.

Chip

What? But it was YOUR ide...

Ok ok, I won't try to pin THAT one on ya! ;-)

 

[poadeleted1]

hahahahahahahahahahahaha. still calm and collected. we can talk as long as people dont get too pushy or arrogant. If my God would pop for some avgas, I'd be happy....

 

[poadeleted3]

hahahahahahahahahahahaha. still calm and collected. we can talk as long as people dont get too pushy or arrogant. If my God would pop for some avgas, I'd be happy....

Ahhh... but my God has popped for avgas. Without this job that I sat at a dining room table praying for, a job I was in no way qualified for when someone from another state called and asked if I wanted work, I'd almost certainly still be flying once every three or four weeks trying to earn my PPL, and I certainly wouldn't be flying like I am now

 

[ScottM]

Certainly not what I've been taught. I've been taught, and believe, that the one real choice we have in life that really matters is whether to accept Jesus Christ as savior, one of the few things in our lives we can choose. Doing so is the only path to heaven, failure to do so results in failure to achieve salvation, no matter the good works you do on Earth. We are not expected to be perfect, in fact cannot be perfect, but our sins are forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice. There are some God uses for his purposes that he knows will not make the good choice, such as Pharoah that Dart mentioned and Judas Iscariot. They have the choice, and the chance, to change and choose to follow God and Jesus, but there are some folks that just will not, and some like Judas that are simply faithless to their friends, comrades and their own beliefs.

Did you guys see this article that came out today about Judas?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/chi-060406judas,1,5944445.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Brings up some interesting points and discusions. I knew the Gnostics had another view of Judas than that of the current main stream Christian religions as Joe outlined, but this is really different. The document that is being released claims that it was Jesus himself that asked Judas to turn him in so that he could be freed from the flesh and achieve his spiritual potential. Interesting idea to say the least.

BTW according the article the idea is not new and dates from a source in 180AD and was written in this document in 300AD.

 

[Dart]

BTW according the article the idea is not new and dates from a source in 180AD and was written in this document in 300AD.

You are correct in that there is nothing new here, except maybe a definitively dated manuscript.

The Gospels hint that Jesus and Judas were having an "inside" conversation at the last supper, and that what was said zipped right by the others (indicative of a secret they were not privy to). During the meal Jesus specifically stated "Go do what you must do." to Judas. It was long speculated that the other Apostles took this to mean "pay for the room and supper" since Judas was the treasurer.

Nothing about the finding suggests that view is any more or less accurate than the one canonized. So, for the time being, I'll stick to the canon. The problem of "new" gospels is as old as the actual event. I figure the folks who worked on it then had more, and fresher, material.


BTW Scott, I haven't forgotten that research for you.