Question for the CFII's in the place

R

Ravioli

Ejection Handle Pulled
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
8,021
Location
Somewhere else
Display Name
Display name:
Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
At what point in an Instrument students syllabus do you introduce the "flight plan" capabilities of a navigator like the 430W series or better?

Do you stay on paper charts, tuning the radios manually, and flying the needle for a while WITHOUT loading the approach, or do you go straight in to the full up activated approach methods?

I'm asking because I'm getting serious about finishing up my IR. I'm strongly considering turning off the 430W for a while and using the SL-30 only for a while so I can get back to using the extra stuff as an aid, rather than the only thing I know.

Thoughts?
 
If you have a 430 in the cockpit I see no reason to delay its use beyond a normal progression insuring all basic instrument skills and the use of all navigation equipment in the cockpit. Yes that is going to include the "loss" of GPS signal and ensuring the pilot being able to function without the moving map, but I would expect that to be covered in any decent IR syllabus, just like any other equipment failure.
 
To follow up on Rav’s question - what about autopilot use? When would that start to come in? I understand that if the plane is equipped, the examiner will require its use in part of the practical test.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
To follow up on Rav’s question - what about autopilot use? When would that start to come in? I understand that if the plane is equipped, the examiner will require its use in part of the practical test.
Click to expand...
After being satisfied with basic instrument flight skills. There is much more to autopilot use than sitting back and just watching it fly. Failure modes is a big thing with autopilots. Expecting it to do something but not anticipating it is a huge problem.
 
I'm with eman on this one. My primary students are introduced to the Flight Plan function as soon as we're flying to other airports. (In most cases Direct-Enter-Enter is a cop out IMHO). If a primary student is knowledgeable about the Flight Plan function then the addition of using the Procedure function for instrument training goes pretty easily.
 
Good question... I would insist on a paper or digital flight log, showing the route of flight and the planned approaches for the cross country training.

As far as training approaches, I would begin with VOR and ILS approaches flown with only the OBS/HSI until flown to proficiency, then use the GPS navigator with the same approaches. Then I would transition to GPS approaches using the navigator with "vectors" mode, followed with a full blown flight planned route terminating in an approach.

Paper charts are always best for making marks and notes for the post-flight debriefing and review. I'm sure most folks nowadays will insist their tablets are enough for all chart purposes, but I'm not yet on board with that, even though I have one for personal use.

The training should be structured around the checkride. You will undoubtedly need to learn new avionics later on, so don't worry too much about the technology as much as being proficient with what you have.
 
Just continuing the discussion because it is a good one (and because it's a slow day in the office). I like marking on the charts for pre and post briefings as well. Fortunately you can do that on ForeFlight. In multiple colors no less. Very handy.
I think being proficient in the 430W/530W or 650/750 if there is one in the training plane is important virtually from the beginning. (And this is certainly easier if its usage has been covered well in primary training.) I think this because we should be teaching real world instrument flying. And today that means a 430 or some kind of certified FMS. If you're filing /G as most do, it's required. And ATC expects it (often even if you don't file /G). So the student needs to be able to load approaches, arrivals, departures and be able to change them even at the last minute with distractions going on before the check ride. Because that's what real world IFR flying is. Make the student load the approach every time. And then at the beginning (and occasionally later) "fail" the display with a post-it, so the student knows the instruments in front of him/her are primary, not the magenta line.
 
During the cross country portion. I’ll usually do one or two cross countries without the GPS and one or two with the GPS that way they know how navigate with and without it. You should be learning it from the beginning though. You’ll really start to dive into it during the cross country planning.
 
I don’t think there is a right way but the way I taught was start with the basics and build from there..
Once basic flying skills were established by instrument reference I would add the green needles enroute nav & holding. Then approaches. Then enroute White/magenta nav source then approach.
As far as autopilot use I would introduce that for enroute ops once we started on approaches.
 
I think @Tarheelpilot nailed it...starting with the building blocks on the bottom and working your way up from there usually works best.

Unfortunately, by the time you get to the instrument training stage, what constitutes the “bottom building blocks” regarding use of a 430 will vary from pilot to pilot. This is where you need to take control of your training and communicate with your instructor if you think he’s jumping past some stuff that would help you more.
 
I was taught the 430w in layers. There is a lot it can do. Going in two deep can get overwhelming.
 
I don't think "basics" necessarily precludes the use of the 430W. However, I would stay away from the map page, except for occasional reference. The most useful page is Nav1 where you have all the raw numbers to stay on course. Then fly it like a VOR or ILS. Then the only difference between this and the old style navigation is the auto-sequence function.
 
I integrate the FP function once we begin RNAV approaches and the ADM on loading, activating, and vectors. If I was operating out of a controlled airport with a SID, it would be earlier in the syllabus.
 
sarangan said:
I don't think "basics" necessarily precludes the use of the 430W. However, I would stay away from the map page, except for occasional reference. The most useful page is Nav1 where you have all the raw numbers to stay on course. Then fly it like a VOR or ILS. Then the only difference between this and the old style navigation is the auto-sequence function.
Click to expand...

You do realize you can customize the map page data fields?
 
Clip4 said:
You do realize you can customize the map page data fields?
Click to expand...

Yes, but when flying different airplanes that becomes cumbersome. Nevertheless, referencing a map once in a while is useful for situational awareness, but looking too much at the map tends to produce chasing. Precision flying is best done by referencing the needles (or numbers). At least that's been my experience.
 
Real answer is is it depends. The student will dictate the time line. Example, map page can really help in developing that ah ha moment when grasping holding pattern entries, but it can also become a real crutch if the instructor does not see that the student really doe not grasp the concept without a graphic in front of them.
 
Clip4 said:
I integrate the FP function once we begin RNAV approaches and the ADM on loading, activating, and vectors. If I was operating out of a controlled airport with a SID, it would be earlier in the syllabus.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much the way I described it. Needles first, then map, then map with route.
 
As a note, i thought i was going to fail my checkride because i didn't know how to load a victor airway. I did all my long xc ir training on a 430, but tested on a 650. I was loading all the waypoints along the victor airway when i got, "its a 650, can it load airways?" After i said "yes," i was told to load the airway. 0.1 hobbs later, i finally figured it out.....with the gtn app, i wish my cfii had a bunch of exercises for me to do at home - load airways, told to fly to iaf then get vectors, random holds, difference between loading/ activating etc. All things a cfii could have scenarios written on a piece of paper and the student could learn at home on their ipad.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top