Question for instructors and primary students alike.

C

CowboyPilot

Guest
Howdy,

Last year, I bought a Cessna 150 with a runout O-200 engine and in need of some interior work and a general good-going-over. I bought the plane for an instructor friend who now teaches out of my hangar. The instructor is a retired USAF IP (Instructor Pilot) who has over 4000 hours of primary instruction alone (mainly T-37's and T-38's) and a helluva lot of tanker time.

He's run about half-a-dozen primary students through their PPL so far on a syllabus he created, and it's working out very well.

My question is about the interior for this 150.

How important is seat/interior comfort to Instructors?

How important is it to Students?

I want to get some feedback as this is about all we're about to have left before getting the plane inspected and annualed and taking to the air with our former Project Pilot students, who are now just plain ol' students.

'Preciate your thoughts and replies.

Regards.

-JD
 
For the first few flights, it won't be too important. But after that, it becomes increasingly more so, especially as you progress through cross-country. Plus, students are gong to judge your operation at least in part by the equipment you fly. So it certainly has to be airworthy (and I'm sure it is), but it also has to LOOK airworthy. The student shouldn't be left with a niggling doubt in her mind. It's not comfort per se, but if you're cleaning up the cosmetics to make it presentable, you should make it comfortable at the same time.
 
gprellwitz said:
For the first few flights, it won't be too important. But after that, it becomes increasingly more so, especially as you progress through cross-country. Plus, students are gong to judge your operation at least in part by the equipment you fly. So it certainly has to be airworthy (and I'm sure it is), but it also has to LOOK airworthy. The student shouldn't be left with a niggling doubt in her mind. It's not comfort per se, but if you're cleaning up the cosmetics to make it presentable, you should make it comfortable at the same time.
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Grant,

Thanks for your thoughts--pretty much in line with my own regarding airworthiness and cosmetics. We've gone through every cable, pulley, nut, bolt, sheet metal screw, fitting, bushing, etc and replaced all that we weren't 100% confident in or sure of. All instruments have been checked out, calibrated and bench-tested when/where applicable. I've ordered two leather covers for the control yokes, new engine control (throttle, mixture, carb heat) fixtures and we built a new instrument panel from aluminum and airbrushed it in the "aviation gray" scheme and arranged the instruments in the typical 6-pack. It won't be IFR certified initially, but if CJ (instructor) wants to do some IR work in it, we'll get it that way.

Once the TBO'd motor goes in, she goes to the paint barn. We've got a sweet design/scheme set up.

This is a community project of sorts by a bunch of us old farts with more time than sense. I put up the cost for the initial purchase and everyone in our "gang" is throwing in with either their talents (engines, instruments, electronics, paint, etc) or some money.

This instructor is like a son to me and we're all fond of him and his wife and kids. And we're all airplane and flying nuts and like to see people who WANT to learn how to fly be able to and able to affordably.

The two students will get a free PPL for the cost of fuel only--they're giving us a lot of sweat equity, which was part of the original deal.

That's why I was wondering how big a factor interior comfort is to instructors and students alike. Not sure how big of a deal it will be to THESE two students since they were here from Day One, but down the line. . .

Thanks again.

Regards.

-JD
 
when i was CFIing a lot, like 4-5 hrs a day on average, i just took a sore butt as the price of admission. Your CFI will like you if you put a nice cushion in there, but I doubt its holding him back any.

i trained in 152s and long cross countries made for numb butts, once again, i viewed this as the price of admission.
 
It's hard to imagine what you're considering. It seems like it would be great to have a comfortable C150 seat, even semi-reclining would help a whole lot but, not having good seats won't stop any flight students or CFIs that are serious about flying. I've flown C150s as much as 5-6 hours in one flight (except for a fueling stop) and the money I saved paid for both my chiropractor and back massage treatments afterwards, so it's a wash in many ways.
 
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I am 5'4-5' and one of the things that I've noticed is that I am very short when sitting in the left seat. If you could JD, try to install some device that allows you to move the seat up or down. Just a thought.
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
I am 5'4-5' and one of the things that I've noticed is that I am very short when sitting in the left seat. If you could JD, try to install some device that allows you to move the seat up or down. Just a thought.
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I second that. Adjustable seats left and right make flying possible.

Also, first impression is to expect the quality of training and maintenance to parallel the condition of the interior of the plane. Oddly, experience over time just reinforces the correlation.
 
JD-

Good to see you on the air again.

I recently bought a 150 for training as well... not commercially, but for family. I just put new radios in and an Airtex interior... only one panel had to be repalced (repainted them all)fr om Plane Plastics. Airtex is very cheap. Where are you planning on getting the paint job (I'm thinking of taking mine to Grady at NW Regional)?
 
As an instructor, seat comfort, good heating and ventilation, and a good intercom (along with as much acoustic quieting you can do) is vitally important both to quality of instruction and how long the instructor is willing to instruct in that plane.
 
Ron Levy said:
As an instructor, seat comfort, good heating and ventilation, and a good intercom (along with as much acoustic quieting you can do) is vitally important both to quality of instruction and how long the instructor is willing to instruct in that plane.
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Everything Ron said, but especially the intercom. There are 3 planes I am instructing in, 2 of them have crap intercoms in them. It is infuriating having to repeat everything you say twice and making the student say everything twice as well.
 
I trained in a Warrior with a relatively worn-out interior. I will say there is a difference between a 'worn out' and 'trashed' interior.

As long as the radios and instruments worked, and the rest of the a/c was airworthy and well maintained, I didn't care so much about the cosmetics. The rental price was also the lowest on the line.

The problem was with the seat - the vertical adjustment had broken and had been welded in a permanent position. Tall folks (I'm 6') had a problem because the seat was too high. Yoke would hit knees, thighs, knee-boards. I stopped flying that particular airplane because of that.

I guess the instructors would need a more comfortable seat than the students - I always considered being in a worn out seat as a way of paying my dues.
 
Comfortable enough that so that my butt does not go numb or my back starts to hurt, but no comfortable enough that I fall asleep. Adjustability is a big plus.

A good seat is not necessarily soft, it should provide proper back and leg support and does not compromise blood circulation. If I recall correctly, EAA's magazine Sport Aviation ran a series on seat comfort and construction in the recent past (last year or so).

However, as a student, seat comfort is low on my list of what makes a training aircraft "comfortable". The items that top my list are: evidence that the plane is maintained well (a dirty aircraft with dings, dents, rips, tears, chips, cracks, etc tends to make me think that other maintenance may be slipshod as well -- I know these are cosmetic and don't effect airworthiness, but appearance does have some psychological effects), a working intercom (or very quiet cabin -- after all, I want to hear the CFI), and good ventilation (I don't want to puke in your plane, you don't want me to either -- fresh air helps)

Bruce
 
Don Jones said:
Everything Ron said, but especially the intercom. There are 3 planes I am instructing in, 2 of them have crap intercoms in them. It is infuriating having to repeat everything you say twice and making the student say everything twice as well.
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At our club, we had a plane where the intercom was wired to cut off when a radio transmission was received. That made it essentially worthless for training. The last (and only) time we used it for IFR training we had to resort to the instructor writing on a piece of paper and shoving it under my nose.

A good intercom is a MUST for training.
 
Our club as a 172N '79, I think. The seats were pretty beat up and they were recovered last summer in a nice leather with new foam.

They are more comfortable and many of the pilots and students comment that it's nicer for bringing passengers.

We haven't seen any increase in usage of the plane so I doubt the worn seats were keeping people from flying, but it is nice.

Joe
 
Like everyone has said, cosmetics do matter to the public. Personally, I find 150/152s to be too crampped for comfortable instruction, but other people don't mind.

Are you going to have enough students to pay the $6k+ insurance and 100-hour inspections? Takes a lot just to break even.
 
I love the C150 and have many happy hours in them. And I've parked my butt in seats of varying condition. I haven't noticed anything bad about the standard seats (the ones with 7,000 hours on them) but if I instructed for several hours a day I'm sure I'd appreciate at least new factory original type cushioning.
 
Areeda said:
Our club as a 172N '79, I think. The seats were pretty beat up and they were recovered last summer in a nice leather with new foam.

They are more comfortable and many of the pilots and students comment that it's nicer for bringing passengers.

We haven't seen any increase in usage of the plane so I doubt the worn seats were keeping people from flying, but it is nice.

Joe
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Problem/dilema:
We had some beater leather SkyHawk seats (heck, all the planes had beater seats!) and I had a super-fine, lady student call up for flight lessons, right now!

Solution:
A pair of color co-ordinated, removable sheepskin seatcovers, made it look like new to her when I quickly slipped them over any of our planes' seats combined with a few pre-placed flightbags in the not so well worn rear seat. Much dual hours of hard work and flying later, she soloed.
 
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JD I have a little different take on it than some perhaps.
I am and IR PP now but recall well my Private training about 5 years ago. I did not learn on a 150 but on an AA1C which is certainly small. At the time I was 36-37 and comfort was not a huge issue for me. Frankly I was so dang excited to be learning to fly I didn't really even think of the comfort issue. The AA1C is not necessarily and uncomfortable plane but it ain't a Barcolounger either.
So in short, for a student, especially a younger student comfort may not be that be much of an issue. ( A CFI well that may be a different story)
As for how well the plane appears and is kept, If the equipment works and the radios and defrosters ( important up here in PA) work I'd be happy. I recall flying one plane where listening to the radios was almost painful. needless to say I didn't learn much on that lesson.
 
Ron Levy said:
As an instructor, seat comfort, good heating and ventilation, and a good intercom (along with as much acoustic quieting you can do) is vitally important both to quality of instruction and how long the instructor is willing to instruct in that plane.
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Right on, Cap'n Ron, but it is even more important to the student!

In fact, I was getting ready to post that the last set of chapters in the Aviation Instructors' Handbook talks about how professionalism includes providing a clean appearance of the instructor.

That would go equally well for the equipment.

Somewhere in that book, Maslow also talks about the basic needs of students needing to be satisfied first, in order for the learning channels to open up. Students need to feel safe, secure and comfortable.

For instructors, a good working environment is nice.

But, a good learning environment for the student is vital.
 
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write-stuff said:
Like everyone has said, cosmetics do matter to the public. Personally, I find 150/152s to be too crampped for comfortable instruction, but other people don't mind.

Are you going to have enough students to pay the $6k+ insurance and 100-hour inspections? Takes a lot just to break even.
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For what it's worth, we're not starting a "flight school." This is an instructor whose father I plucked out of the jungles many moons ago on a particularly hairy mission and spent several weeks in sickbay recuping on the USS Kittyhawk. He and I were pretty close throughout my military career and through our friendship, I watched his son and daughter grow up. His son got a USAFA appointment, then a pilot's slot, and I was one of his primary instructors at Fairchild during survival school.

The guy's wife does very well financially and wants him to be HAPPY doing something he likes and enjoys. He's also recently retired from the USAF, so he has an O-5 pension and benefits.

He's taught ME a lot about safe flying, knowledgeable flying, common sense flying and a whole lot more in the nineteen years he wore Air Force wings. I have the means to do something good for him and I sure as hell enjoy handing him the scissors when a student of his completes their first solo and taxis back to my hangar with a smile as wide as the propeller. :yes:

What we're doing is a "private" flight training opportunity. He's going to be building a homebuilt and is debating between an RV10 and Four Winds.

Learning to fly the conventional way is too damned expensive--and granted, for a lot of reasons. The overhead is a big one--airplane, hangar, facilities. We know a number of potential pilots who'd love to learn how to fly, but can't afford the typical $5K - $8K many of the schools/operations get.

Our two (former Project Pilot) soon-to-be students will get their PPL for the cost of gas and incidentals. The details how he wants to operate after that are his, but it will be significantly more affordable and will have some folks learning to fly from an instructor who has over 4000 hours of primary instruction time alone for a whole lot less than most other outfits would charge.

So, turning a profit isn't anywhere in our thinking. That's not what this project is about.

Scott 'Gunny' Perdue said:
JD-

Good to see you on the air again.

I recently bought a 150 for training as well... not commercially, but for family. I just put new radios in and an Airtex interior... only one panel had to be repalced (repainted them all)fr om Plane Plastics. Airtex is very cheap. Where are you planning on getting the paint job (I'm thinking of taking mine to Grady at NW Regional)?
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Grady sure 'nuff does one helluva nice job, no doubt about it. He's done a number of RVs from the area and they all look fantastic.

Haven't talked to him about this job, but am figuring on having him paint the little Lancair once it's built.

Regards.

-JD
 
Gotcha. But small-time or not, you've sure got bigger yarbles than me if you're planning on training in an aircraft without insurance. And you'll still have to factor in the 100-hour inspections.
 
CowboyPilot said:
I have the means to do something good for him and I sure as hell enjoy handing him the scissors when a student of his completes their first solo and taxis back to my hangar with a smile as wide as the propeller. :yes:

So, turning a profit isn't anywhere in our thinking. That's not what this project is about.
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JD, I hope to someday meet you, shake your hand, buy you a beer, and hear some of your stories. Doing it for the love...:cheerswine:
 
write-stuff said:
Gotcha. But small-time or not, you've sure got bigger yarbles than me if you're planning on training in an aircraft without insurance. And you'll still have to factor in the 100-hour inspections.
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Who or where was it said that we're not going to carry insurance or that we're not already covering everything?

As for the 100-hour inspections, two things: One, the airplane is not for rent and never will be, nor will it ever be classified as part of a fleet for flight school purposes. Two, about twenty some-odd years ago, I learned the hard way the true value of not waiting for scheduled inspections to ensure that everything is always 100% on an airplane. And, my A&P/IA is right across the taxiway.

It's not a flight school. Never will be either.

Regards.

-JD
 
Areeda said:
Our club as a 172N '79, I think. The seats were pretty beat up and they were recovered last summer in a nice leather with new foam.

They are more comfortable and many of the pilots and students comment that it's nicer for bringing passengers.

We haven't seen any increase in usage of the plane so I doubt the worn seats were keeping people from flying, but it is nice.
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Joe,

While the flight hours of the airplane may not have increased, I'd be willing to bet the chances of the other seats having pax in them have...
 
You've gone this far, might as well put in a new interior, with comfy seats to match that new paint job and rebuilt airframe.

As a Student Pilot, I do judge a lot of the planes I see by their cleanliness and general appearence. Sloppy looking plane, screams sloppy maintenance. Even though I realize that's not always true, that is my perception.

I'll say again you are a good guy for doing that 150 project. My old High School buddy is going to use my Cherokee to get his PPL, his only costs will be gas, insurance and the CFI.
 
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