Question for cfi's

Catalo

Catalo

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Catalo
So I just passed my cfi initial last week and in the oral got into a discussion with the dpe about electronics. So I have a question for active cfi's. Do you make your students do their xc flights on paper charts? And do you take away cell phones(initial solo only)/ electronics before you solo them so they don't take selfies or anything else like that?
- Nick
 
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Catalo said:
So I just passed my cfi initial last week and in the oral got into a discussion with the dpe about electronics. So I have a question for active cfi's. Do you make your students do their xc flights on paper charts? And do you take away cell phones/ electronics before you solo them so they don't take selfies or anything else like that?
- Nick
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All my guys did their X/Cs with eyeballs and paper charts, plotting the whole thing out on paper without electronic E6B or iPads, heck only half had flight following.

I also prohibited any go pros or other stuff from solo work, I said if I found out they were taking video or any other stuff on solo I'd drop them. Never had a issue.

Frankly a monkey can plan a X/C with a ipad and anyone can follow a GPS line, those tools and gopros are something you earn after you earn your ticket.
 
Catalo said:
So I just passed my cfi initial last week and in the oral got into a discussion with the dpe about electronics. So I have a question for active cfi's. Do you make your students do their xc flights on paper charts? And do you take away cell phones/ electronics before you solo them so they don't take selfies or anything else like that?
- Nick
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I want their cell phone on board just in case... they need to have self discipline not to use it wrongly, though.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I want their cell phone on board just in case... they need to have self discipline not to use it wrongly, though.
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I should have been more specific, on initial solo take the phone away. That makes sense though.
 
James331 said:
All my guys did their X/Cs with eyeballs and paper charts, plotting the whole thing out on paper without electronic E6B or iPads, heck only half had flight following.

I also prohibited any go pros or other stuff from solo work, I said if I found out they were taking video or any other stuff on solo I'd drop them. Never had a issue.

Frankly a monkey can plan a X/C with a ipad and anyone can follow a GPS line, those tools and gopros are something you earn after you earn your ticket.
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I feel the same way. I did my solo xc flights with paper and looking outside. I referenced the gps just to double check every once in a while but other wise it was all paper.
 
I don't Need something like a kid on a cell phone taking a picture and killing himself on my conscience. That's the thing that scares me most about being a cfi.
 
my favorite DPE had a great way of dealing with GPS's. he would let a person plan the XC any way they choose. about 2 minutes after TO he would shut the GPS off. if they switched to the chart and followed it ride continued, else pink slip time. I never had a student pink slip for that reason with him. I insist students learn by looking at a chart and out the window. ( i will let them have the chart on an IPAD though, but no GPS tracking on it)

bob burns
 
Catalo said:
I don't Need something like a kid on a cell phone taking a picture and killing himself on my conscience. That's the thing that scares me most about being a cfi.
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On my conscience, meh if someone does something stupid and dies that's just evolution, I'll still have lunch like any other day.

Having a dodo bird kill himself on my CFI ticket, that I have a major problem with.
 
unsafervguy said:
my favorite DPE had a great way of dealing with GPS's. he would let a person plan the XC any way they choose. about 2 minutes after TO he would shut the GPS off. if they switched to the chart and followed it ride continued, else pink slip time. I never had a student pink slip for that reason with him. I insist students learn by looking at a chart and out the window. ( i will let them have the chart on an IPAD though, but no GPS tracking on it)

bob burns
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Good way to do it :yes:
 
Catalo said:
Do you make your students do their xc flights on paper charts?
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No. I want them to use whatever they'll actually be using when they get their ticket. But if they're going to use an electronic chart, they will have a backup system, which may be either paper or another EFB.

And do you take away cell phones(initial solo only)/ electronics before you solo them so they don't take selfies or anything else like that?
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No. If I can't trust them that far, I can't trust them with an airplane.
 
Ron Levy said:
No. I want them to use whatever they'll actually be using when they get their ticket. But if they're going to use an electronic chart, they will have a backup system, which may be either paper or another EFB.

No. If I can't trust them that far, I can't trust them with an airplane.
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That's a good point. I plan on making them use paper for the first one or two so that if it does fail they aren't screwed
 
Ron Levy said:
No. I want them to use whatever they'll actually be using when they get their ticket. But if they're going to use an electronic chart, they will have a backup system, which may be either paper or another EFB.

No. If I can't trust them that far, I can't trust them with an airplane.
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Wouldn't it be better to teach the students how to do things the hard and simple way, I mean I can take a student and teach them how to use foreflight to a degree they could fly across the country on it within 30 min.

Teaching a ipad/EFB kid how to plan and navigate with their eyeballs, a chart, pencil paper and a watch, that's a whole nother story.
 
I'm not a cfi but wouldn't it better for them to know how to input waypoints into the gps. I understand they need to know how to use paper, but they will probably never use again after they get ppl. Would seem that what they will really use would be useful to be trained with. On the other hand I believe in the towel over the panel for new people.
 
Theboys said:
I'm not a cfi but wouldn't it better for them to know how to input waypoints into the gps. I understand they need to know how to use paper, but they will probably never use again after they get ppl. Would seem that what they will really use would be useful to be trained with. On the other hand I believe in the towel over the panel for new people.
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After they know how to do everything on paper yes I agree. I don't use paper charts any more. I depend on ff more than I should but I still know how to use paper.
 
Foreflight charts have everything on them now that the paper charts have I think with this newest release. I would expect they might even discontinue printing paper in near future. I'm thinking paper might go way of ndb approaches or loran. I normally fly in flight levels with two panel gps units and two iPads with ff. I have a few paper charts but never open them.
 
Theboys said:
Foreflight charts have everything on them now that the paper charts have I think with this newest release. I would expect they might even discontinue printing paper in near future. I'm thinking paper might go way of ndb approaches or loran. I normally fly in flight levels with two panel gps units and two iPads with ff. I have a few paper charts but never open them.
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Paper charts will be around for decades to come. Foreflight charts aren't anything special, they're literally just the tiff files the FAA publishes every cycle that they print.
 
Paper or electronic works for me. I still have them plot out the course, use an E6B and show me how they got their numbers. It can e hand written, printed out, or an electric copy.
 
My cfi was not an old guy... mid-20s and headed to the regionals. But, he made me do all my planning by hand using the chart and E6B, and we flew by visual waypoints and clock. He did not have any set rule on "no iPads" or whatnot. I was free to bring it along as I wished. However, on our dual XCs he would take it away more times than not to keep things honest. I really liked the way he taught. If you can't trust your students to do the right thing, then what is the purpose in teaching others how to fly? If you do your job right, your ppl students will continue flying by your standards. Nearly one year later now after earning my ppl, I still fly my XCs by magnetic compass, visual waypoints, and Timex. And then I kick on FF every so often to check gs and position accuracy.
 
I teach private students for the most part using paper, plotter, stopwatch, and e6b. The few that have an iPad an appropriate app are trained with that as well but it will fail, often, and they will have a paper backup.

Most of my instrument students end up with an iPad and it fails as well fairly often and they have paper along as well.

I personally don't fly with any paper but I'm comfortable with what I have in various electronic forms and even if all of that fails I know where the airports are and how to get them.

Instructing actively keeps you sharp in many ways from being able to save the plane from the worst takeoffs and landings to knowing your sharp without all the toys since you fail them so often and teach so much with things failed.
 
As long as the FAA expects them to know traditional paper navigation skills that's what I teach them first. Once they demonstrate basic proficiency they can use an EFB for subsequent flights.

GoPros are allowed on first solos provided they're setup and running before they start the engine and require no interaction during their flight. Have had some nice videos as a result!
 
BTW, later in training I'll have them manually plot a XC and do all the time and fuel calculations based on forecasts. Then I'll have them input it to ForeFlight and see how close the numbers are.
 
LDJones said:
BTW, later in training I'll have them manually plot a XC and do all the time and fuel calculations based on forecasts. Then I'll have them input it to ForeFlight and see how close the numbers are.
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Even more revealing is when the hand calculations match actual results! As a ppl student, I created an Excel flight planner for fun, to double check my hand calculations. That was a fun project. Never really did my flight planning with ForeFlight, although I could have if I wanted.
 
Funny how many forms of navigation have gone the way of the Dodo, but Dead Reckoning survives. Pilotage will always survive, but that is VERY different than Dead Reckoning.
I wonder why DR survives?? Flying a heading and time it?? Seems outdated. Plus, what if the watch fails??
 
Because it works in any airframe regardless of what avionics you have, or don't have.
 
Kritchlow said:
Funny how many forms of navigation have gone the way of the Dodo, but Dead Reckoning survives. Pilotage will always survive, but that is VERY different than Dead Reckoning.
I wonder why DR survives?? Flying a heading and time it?? Seems outdated. Plus, what if the watch fails??
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Then some sort of higher power really doesn't want you to make it to your destination/home.
 
Catalo said:
That's a good point. I plan on making them use paper for the first one or two so that if it does fail they aren't screwed
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I would do that if they planned to use paper as the backup for their EFB. Otherwise, no, I'll stick with what they'll actually be using for real.
 
James331 said:
Wouldn't it be better to teach the students how to do things the hard and simple way,
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I don't think so -- you'd be working against the Laws of Exercise and Primacy when it comes to how they will actually be doing things once they get their ticket.
 
Theboys said:
I'm not a cfi but wouldn't it better for them to know how to input waypoints into the gps.
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It would be best if they know how to use the tools they'll actually be using, and be able to navigate safely despite any one failure (including loss of satellite data).

I understand they need to know how to use paper,
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I don't see that need at all unless they plan to use paper charts after they get their ticket. And the FAA agrees with me -- here's a quote from Jim Viola, Manager of the General Aviation and Commercial Division (AFS-800):
“I would like to see the applicant use the same technique, process, or program that they are going to use the day after the practical test. That way during the debriefing the DPE may be able to offer some tidbits of knowledge on the program they are using for their future flights, and the pros and cons of that program. Better decision making with the use of new technology is where we need to go. The math is not what we want to test, but rather whether the applicant understands what the numbers mean and how they affect the flight s/he is about to take. We’re examining the decisions and the adjustments s/he makes based on the information and computation results.”
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mkosmo said:
Paper charts will be around for decades to come. Foreflight charts aren't anything special, they're literally just the tiff files the FAA publishes every cycle that they print.
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I'm not actually so sure of that. Not long ago I needed a paper chart. I called the local airports from College Park, MD up to Wilmington DE.

Three places carried them that I called. Two in MD and one in Lancaster PA. I was told on several calls that everyone is slowly discontinuing carrying paper charts. They no longer get reimbursed for what they dont sell and cant return them. Order them from Amazon/sporty's, etc or find someone else who does.

I ended up finding a private charter service who had a pilot walking through at the time i called, heard the conversation and said he give me his chart for $5 and I took him up on it.
 
I think there is a value to the process of teaching cross country planning through the use of paper charts. It's the same value as using any large visual aid that both can look at at the same time, whether a projection, model airplane, whiteboard. It allows concepts to be worked on. Drawing on a chart and even using an manual E6B can lead to an understanding of what the tech tools are designed to accomplish just like a pencil and paper help one understand addition and subtraction far better than simply tossing numbers into a calculator.

For in-flight purposes, there is no good reason to deny the tools that will be normally be used by a pilot. I would not insist a pilot leave his pocket calculator or E6B behind and insist he do time/speed/distance/fuel use calculations by hand. Same for an EFB.

Yes, there is definitely a need for a pilot to be able to plan a cross country without a magenta line - the "Children of the Magenta" syndrome is more than enough evidence of that! But there's more than enough time during dual cross country flights to explore the student's ability to navigate visually with more limited options.
 
gitmo234 said:
I'm not actually so sure of that. Not long ago I needed a paper chart. I called the local airports from College Park, MD up to Wilmington DE.

Three places carried them that I called. Two in MD and one in Lancaster PA. I was told on several calls that everyone is slowly discontinuing carrying paper charts. They no longer get reimbursed for what they dont sell and cant return them. Order them from Amazon/sporty's, etc or find someone else who does.

I ended up finding a private charter service who had a pilot walking through at the time i called, heard the conversation and said he give me his chart for $5 and I took him up on it.
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That is due to both the use of EFBs and FAA policy on credit for unsold charts. Probably also impacted by the online sales of paper charts at reduced rates that began years ago. Paper charts will probably exist for quite a while but the realities of the market mean they may not be available at many airport shops as their use by pilots diminishes.
 
Ron Levy said:
I would do that if they planned to use paper as the backup for their EFB. Otherwise, no, I'll stick with what they'll actually be using for real.
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That won't help them much preparing for the written.
 
LDJones said:
That won't help them much preparing for the written.
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LDJones said:
Then why are those questions still on the knowledge test?
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What questions on the written cannot be taught using electronic charts? The charts are the same whether they're paper or electronic.

That said, there's a lot on the written which has no relevance to actual flying, and we don't cover that during flight training, so I don't see written test issues as a reason to burden a trainee during flight training with methods and techniques s/he will never use again.
 
Ron Levy said:
.. And the FAA agrees with me -- here's a quote from Jim Viola, Manager of the General Aviation and Commercial Division (AFS-800):
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:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


Do we really need to go through this again, Ron? ONE person at the FAA (not the FAA itself) agrees with you and that via an unpublished secret memo that it seems only you have access to.

As I have said before...I do not disagree with you on the premise, only on your constant blabbering that it is actual FAA policy.
 
MikeELP said:
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


Do we really need to go through this again, Ron? ONE person at the FAA (not the FAA itself) agrees with you and that via an unpublished secret memo that it seems only you have access to.

As I have said before...I do not disagree with you on the premise, only on your constant blabbering that it is actual FAA policy.
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Well, since AFS-800 sets the policy, and Mr. Viola is the head of AFS-800, I think that pretty well says it all. And he's said this in public several times, too. But you are free to believe what you want.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, since AFS-800 sets the policy, and Mr. Viola is the head of AFS-800, I think that pretty well says it all. And he's said this in public several times, too. But you are free to believe what you want.
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No, it does not. According to your "quote" from Mr. Viola, he said "I would like to see".

That sounds like an opinion...not regulation.

Just because Mr. Viola would "like to see" something doesn't make it so.

When it actually gets put into writing as part of 8900.2 then it becomes policy.....and then I'll believe it.

Keep on tryin' Ron!! :D
 
MikeELP said:
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


Do we really need to go through this again, Ron? ONE person at the FAA (not the FAA itself) agrees with you and that via an unpublished secret memo that it seems only you have access to.

As I have said before...I do not disagree with you on the premise, only on your constant blabbering that it is actual FAA policy.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:


Besides I really am not a fan of dumbing down aviation.

The rule of primacy is really important here, I teach them the manual way of doing it first, no electronics involved, they need to know the "magic" behind the scenes on their ipad or whatever device.

I have in a few occasions needed to do some planning with a pencil, ruler and math, stuff happens.

And like I said all those rules don't apply to hitting buttons on a ipad, frankly it doesn't take and notable amount of training to use foreflight, and if you understand the BASICS of doing it with paper foreflight is so easy it feels like you're cheating.
 
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