Question about the written and practical exams

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DMD3.

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DMD3.
From what I understand, when I take my instrument written, the DPE will know which areas I missed the questions in (if I only barely pass with a score of 71 and the majority of the questions I missed dealt with weather, I can expect a heap of weather questions on the oral).

Now, let's say I pass with a flying colored score of 70, and the vast majority of questions I got wrong were about AFDs, and NDB approaches. If the aircraft I bring to the checkride is not equipped with an ADF (meaning I'm exempt from those type of approaches), should I still expect a tougher oral exam?
 
Maybe it depends on the examiner.. But remember your CFI has to sign that he has educated you on those areas, before you get to the practical. The DPE probably isn't going to look up the codes, but a 95% is more impressive than a 70%.
 
I could tell the DPE that I had the most trouble with NDB questions. Though I agree it's still better to score high as possible, no matter how legit the excuse (this is a hypothetical question that hopefully I won't find out the hard way).
 
It really will depend on the specific DPE, but generally, they don't really focus on your missed questions . And I doubt seriously that any DPE will get into ADF questions these days, unless he is an old crusty who hates that these beloved beacon are disappearing . :)
 
DMD3. said:
From what I understand, when I take my instrument written, the DPE will know which areas I missed the questions in
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It's theoretically possible for the DPE to look at your written test report and determine which areas you missed, but in 8-1/2 years of sitting through a dozen or so IR-A orals a year, I've never seen one do that. Further, with IACRA, the examiner doesn't even see the actual written test report, which is entered into IACRA by the recommending instructor using the exam number. As a result...

(if I only barely pass with a score of 71 and the majority of the questions I missed dealt with weather, I can expect a heap of weather questions on the oral).
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...they just ask the standard questions they always ask everyone without modification based on the written test results.

Now, let's say I pass with a flying colored score of 70, and the vast majority of questions I got wrong were about AFDs, and NDB approaches. If the aircraft I bring to the checkride is not equipped with an ADF (meaning I'm exempt from those type of approaches), should I still expect a tougher oral exam?
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The IR-A PTS tells the DPE to test you only on systems actually installed in the aircraft provided for the test. If you don't have an ADF in your plane, you should not be asked about ADF's or NDB approaches no matter what you did on your written test.

However, if you do have an operable ADF installed, you should expect to be asked about it, and if there's an NDB approach nearby, you should expect to be flight-tested on it -- but that's based on the presence of that ADF, not what you got wrong you the written. And I've had quite a few IR trainees remove the ADF from their plane just to avoid that, but if you take that route, make sure you follow the regulations and both log the removal and put an "INOP" sticker on the ADF indicator, because FAA Order 8900.2 has made checking or maintenance record entries about removed equipment a special interest item.
 
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Ron Levy said:
It's theoretically possible for the DPE to look at your written test report and determine which areas you missed, but in 8-1/2 years of sitting through a dozen or so IR-A orals a year, I've never seen one do that. Further, with IACRA, the examiner doesn't even see the actual written test report, which is entered into IACRA by the recommending instructor using the exam number. As a result...

...they just ask the standard questions they always ask everyone without modification based on the written test results.

The IR-A PTS tells the DPE to test you only on systems actually installed in the aircraft provided for the test. If you don't have an ADF in your plane, you should not be asked about ADF's or NDB approaches no matter what you did on your written test.

However, if you do have an operable ADF installed, you should expect to be asked about it, and if there's an NDB approach nearby, you should expect to be flight-tested on it -- but that's based on the presence of that ADF, not what you got wrong you the written. And I've had quite a few IR trainees remove the ADF from their plane just to avoid that, but if you take that route, make sure you follow the regulations and both log the removal and put an "INOP" sticker on the ADF indicator, because FAA Order 8900.2 has made checking or maintenance record entries about removed equipment a special interest item.
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Thanks Captain.

This brings up another question, is the examiner required to test me on DME arcs if the airplane is equipped with GPS but not DME? According to my CFI, the students he's sent so far have not been asked to do them, even though GPS can be used in place of DME to perform them.
 
DMD3. said:
Thanks Captain.

This brings up another question, is the examiner required to test me on DME arcs if the airplane is equipped with GPS but not DME? According to my CFI, the students he's sent so far have not been asked to do them, even though GPS can be used in place of DME to perform them.
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They aren't required to but it's fair game. For what it's worth, IMO flying a DME arc via GPS is just as easy as with the traditional VOR -DME combo, maybe even easier.

I wouldn't expect you would have to demonstrate it unless it was associated with 1 of the 3 required approaches for the practical.
 
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In my experience the whole old wives tale about brutal orals for folks who got a 71% and a short oral for the 100% crowd is just that, OWT.

As for what Ron said, not 100% true, you will have to bring in the original of your written test results, the DPE will be well aware of your score and your missed questions. Every single examiner for every checkride I've sent a student to, or been on myself, has always looked at the original written test results, and its always been a "do you have it so I can check that box" type thing.

All that said, the longest oral I had with one of my students was someone who got 100% and liked to try to impress people with how much he thought he knew.

With your question on the DME arcs, you should know from reading the PTS (you read it right?) you only need 2 non percision and 1 percision approach, no requirment for a arc.


I've always had my students call the DPE a few days before the ride to verify details like who, where and how much. I've also advised the students to ask questions like "where should I plan our flight to" and "what approach plates should I put on my yoke clip". More often than not the DPE gave the student the approahes he was going to shoot. YMMV.
 
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Ron Levy said:
....Further, with IACRA, the examiner doesn't even see the actual written test report, which is entered into IACRA by the recommending instructor using the exam number.
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I do not believe that is correct. The DPE must review the actual (original) test report.

At least that's what every DPE I've worked with requires. And it says so in 8900.2. Section 24 (a).

Mike
 
DMD3. said:
This brings up another question, is the examiner required to test me on DME arcs if the airplane is equipped with GPS but not DME? According to my CFI, the students he's sent so far have not been asked to do them, even though GPS can be used in place of DME to perform them.
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Yes, they can and most do test DME arcs using a certified GPS if you have one installed. It's a listed task in the IR PTS and you have the equipment to do it.

That said, I personally think it's silly to do that with a GPS like a 430 or G1000 other than on a published procedure (in which case you have the nice magenta arc to follow) because ATC doesn't give unpublished DME arcs and you don't do "turn 10/twist 10" on a published procedure with such a system, but it's still within their discretion to do so. As a result, I do teach DME arcs using the old "turn 10/twist 10" method to anyone going for an IR with an installed IFR GPS whether they also have a real DME or not -- just in case. Obviously, with a "real" DME, since a procedure being published or not doesn't change what you do with it, I have no objections to testing with unpublished DME arcs in that situation.
 
tsts4 said:
They aren't required to...
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I might argue that point. There is no exception in the required tasks list in the IR-A PTS to the DME task based on having an instrument-certified GPS rather than a "real" DME. Many DPE's don't bother doing that unless you do have a real DME or there's a published procedure with an arc in it nearby, but I don't think it's accurate to say it's not required by the PTS when your aircraft has the capability to do it.

I wouldn't expect you would have to demonstrate it unless it was associated with 1 of the 3 required approaches for the practical.
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Unless you have a written guarantee from that examiner saying that, based on watching a lot of IR-A practical tests the last 8 years, I would definitely expect it and be prepared to do it.
 
MikeELP said:
I do not believe that is correct. The DPE must review the actual (original) test report.

At least that's what every DPE I've worked with requires. And it says so in 8900.2. Section 24 (a).
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Been quite a while since one asked to see one when it's already in IACRA, but maybe I'm only dealing with maverick DPE's.
 
MikeELP said:
Well, Ron...go read 8900.2 with particular attention to 16(d) and 24(a) and tell me what you think it says.

:dunno:

Mike
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I know what it says. I also know what DPE's across the US are actually doing. As I said, maybe all the ones I meet are mavericks, but in that case, this is the only issue on which they are all ignoring the guidance. And the ones who do end up using the paper don't check the codes, just that the score is passing and the ID on the test matches the applicant's ID.
 
Ron Levy said:
With IACRA, they are not absolutely required to do that and generally don't when it's already in the system.
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So on the FAA Practical Test checklist why does it have "computer test report" listed under personals documents to bring for the checkride??

image.jpg
 
Ummm...because IACRA has not yet been incorporated in the PTS's? Note that "original 8710-1" is also on the list, and you do not need that with IACRA, either.
 
What I preach and what really happens aren't always the same. In this case, anyone who knows anything about IACRA knows the DPE can pull up the actual report once the instructor has loaded it making the paper report completely superfluous. But in reality, most don't do that.
 
James331 said:
With your question on the DME arcs, you should know from reading the PTS (you read it right?) you only need 2 non percision and 1 percision approach, no requirment for a arc.
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I'm aware that 2 non-precisions and one precision is required, but also whatever approach the aircraft is equipped for is also required (if you hav]e a WAAS GPS, a navcom with a glideslope, an ADF and a DME, then that'd be six different type of approaches, (the two precision being the WAAS and ILS).
 
DMD3. said:
I'm aware that 2 non-precisions and one precision is required, but also whatever approach the aircraft is equipped for is also required (if you hav]e a WAAS GPS, a navcom with a glideslope, an ADF and a DME, then that'd be six different type of approaches, (the two precision being the WAAS and ILS).
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Got a reference for that? Be a lot of cross-country time involved in a checkride in certain parts of the country if that were the case.

You can be tested on any that you're equipped for, but I don't see anything that requires all of the approaches that you're equipped for.
 
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DMD3. said:
I'm aware that 2 non-precisions and one precision is required, but also whatever approach the aircraft is equipped for is also required (if you hav]e a WAAS GPS, a navcom with a glideslope, an ADF and a DME, then that'd be six different type of approaches, (the two precision being the WAAS and ILS).
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I think we might be talking two different things.

For the IFR checkride you're looking at 3 approaches, 2 non precision, one percision.

Even in a WAAS plane that can shoot anything outside of a TACAN, you're only going to shoot 3 for the IFR ride.

So for testing purposes, one ILS and two of anything else your plane can shoot.

Like I said, most DPEs will give you the approaches if you ask them right.
 
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All depends on the examiner. Any subject matter in the PTS is fair game.
 
When I took the commercial practical test the DPE asked for the original computer test report and was clear a copy was not acceptable.
My test score was 85%.
He looked up the codes and focused on the areas where he felt I was week.
The oral portion of the test lasted six hours.
The flight portion of the test was around three hours.
 
Vance Breese said:
When I took the commercial practical test the DPE asked for the original computer test report and was clear a copy was not acceptable.
My test score was 85%.
He looked up the codes and focused on the areas where he felt I was week.
The oral portion of the test lasted six hours.
The flight portion of the test was around three hours.
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Jesus dude!

If that's true thats BS, if it takes him that long to figure out if you meet PTS spec he should resign his DPE standing.
 
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James331 said:
Jesus dude!

If that's true that BS, if it takes him that long to figure out if you meet PTS spec he should resign his DPE standing.
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He is a very experienced examiner and takes it very seriously.
He has great reverence for holders of a commercial certificate.
I found it arduous.
 
In all my checkrides, none of my examiner's even looked at my written score. They all just went by the PTS
 
When I took my Instrument, the DPE looked up the codes for the questions that I got wrong on the written. I had missed 3 or 4 questions, and we definitely covered them in the oral.

I think someone had mentioned, or I read somewhere that they might cover the ones I missed, so I made sure I knew those areas cold.

Not sure if my DPE was an anomaly or not, but I would be ready just in case.
 
Vance Breese said:
He is a very experienced examiner and takes it very seriously.
He has great reverence for holders of a commercial certificate.
I found it arduous.
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Yeah, ok.

That's not very professional and would have resulted in a come to jesus talk if you were one of my students.

I hold the profession in high regards as well, its how I make a living and where my heart is, still no excuse for a SIX HOUR oral and a THREE HOUR flight, that is what we call BS.

Especially for a gyrocopter CPL, that is unless you're the other Vance Breese who got his last ticket in 1951, that dude had a rather impressive ticket CP MEL SEL MES SES, even then, I doubt he spent 9 hours for any of his checkrides.
 
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Ron Levy said:
What I preach and what really happens aren't always the same. In this case, anyone who knows anything about IACRA knows the DPE can pull up the actual report once the instructor has loaded it making the paper report completely superfluous. But in reality, most don't do that.
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Nice try, Ron. Here....I'll try and help you out.

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From FAA Order 8900.2:


16. Structure of the Practical Test......

d. Airman Knowledge Test Report. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]An examiner conducting a practical test must note the failed areas coded on the applicant’s knowledge test report to identify possible deficiencies which may affect the applicant’s flight performance. Examiners should have a current copy of AC 60-25, Reference Materials and Subject Matter Knowledge Codes for Airman Knowledge Testing. The instructor must endorse the applicant’s logbook or training record attesting that the applicant has received the required training. In accordance with chapter 5, paragraph 2, applicants will be tested individually and separately. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]24. Prerequisites for Practical Tests.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]To be eligible for a practical test, an applicant must meet all requirements of part 61 applicable to the certificate or rating sought and comply with the following prerequisites.
[/FONT][/FONT]
a. Knowledge Test. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Except as provided by § 61.39, the applicant must have passed any required knowledge test within the 24 calendar-months preceding the practical test. An appropriate knowledge test report for the aircraft category and/or rating must be presented to the examiner at the time of application for the practical test (e.g., a private pilot applicant must present a satisfactory private pilot knowledge test report; a commercial pilot applicant must present a satisfactory commercial pilot knowledge test report) (Figures 7-10 and 7-10A).
[/FONT][/FONT]Note: [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The knowledge test report will be good for 60 calendar-months for an applicant for an ATP certificate with an airplane category and a multiengine class rating who passes the knowledge test after July 31, 2014. The applicant must also present a graduation certificate from an ATP certification training program in addition to the knowledge test report.
(1) The FAA has designated industry entities to give airman knowledge tests through computer testing. These companies issue a computer test report to the applicant upon completion of the test. This report will have an embossed seal, similar to a notary public seal, on it which identifies the computer testing company. Examiners must accept this computer test report and ensure that the applicant’s name and identification appear on the aeronautical knowledge test results and the embossed seal is legible. Duplicate copies of the report (Figures 7-10 and 7-10A) are not acceptable.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And for those of you thinking of showing up for a practical test WITHOUT the original (with embossed seal) printout of your knowledge exam results...just tell the DPE to ignore FAA Order 8900.2 and tell him/her that Cap'n Ron said you didn't need to bring it.


CHOOSE WISELY ;)
 
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James331 said:
Especially for a gyrocopter CPL, that is unless you're the other Vance Breese who got his last ticket in 1951, that dude had a rather impressive ticket CP MEL SEL MES SES, even then, I doubt he spent 9 hours for any of his checkrides.
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My father is another Vance Breese and was a freelance experimental test pilot for many years.
First flight in the NA73X (AKA P51 Mustang), NA40B (AKA B25) and the Northrup N-1M Flying Wing to name a few.
He was gone 20 years before I started flying.
I did not want to stand in his shadow so I road raced motorcycles instead.
After crashing at over 300 miles per hour two years in a row at Bonneville in a motorcycle streamliner my neurologist felt I needed a new hobby because head injuries are cumulative
 

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James331 said:
So on the FAA Practical Test checklist why does it have "computer test report" listed under personals documents to bring for the checkride??

image.jpg
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Because that hasn't been updated since the new technology came online?:dunno:
 
Vance Breese said:
When I took the commercial practical test the DPE asked for the original computer test report and was clear a copy was not acceptable.
My test score was 85%.
He looked up the codes and focused on the areas where he felt I was week.
The oral portion of the test lasted six hours.
The flight portion of the test was around three hours.
Click to expand...

Same thing happened with me (but didn't last 6 hours!)
 
Vance Breese said:
When I took the commercial practical test the DPE asked for the original computer test report and was clear a copy was not acceptable.
My test score was 85%.
He looked up the codes and focused on the areas where he felt I was week.
The oral portion of the test lasted six hours.
The flight portion of the test was around three hours.
Click to expand...

Good God that is long! There is being thorough and then there is just flat ridiculous. If it was a CFI checkride I could see the oral being that long. But not for a commercial.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Got a reference for that? Be a lot of cross-country time involved in a checkride in certain parts of the country if that were the case.

You can be tested on any that you're equipped for, but I don't see anything that requires all of the approaches that you're equipped for.
Click to expand...

I've always heard that if your aircraft has ADF, then you have to do that type of approach, even if it is equipped with enough equipment to do 1 precision and 2 nonprecisions otherwise.
 
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