Question about tablet PCs and students in the cockpit

WBBulldogs

WBBulldogs

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I have been hearing the rave about iPads and the Samsung Galaxy Tab and how pilots love to use them to replace some paper charts and sometimes even use GPS capability.

I am a future student. Probably won't start lessons until about a year from now when I'm out of the middle east. I was curious though. Is it a good investment for a student pilot to have or should I not even worry about gadgets at this point in time? I do have an android phone that I could use to look up charts if I ever really needed to. I guess I am just trying to see if an iPad or equiv would really help me as a student or if i decided to even go instrument rated?
 
Just my humble,

iPad makes it too easy as well as giving you something else to learn, save the gadgets for later.
 
WBBulldogs said:
I have been hearing the rave about iPads and the Samsung Galaxy Tab and how pilots love to use them to replace some paper charts and sometimes even use GPS capability.

I am a future student. Probably won't start lessons until about a year from now when I'm out of the middle east. I was curious though. Is it a good investment for a student pilot to have or should I not even worry about gadgets at this point in time? I do have an android phone that I could use to look up charts if I ever really needed to. I guess I am just trying to see if an iPad or equiv would really help me as a student or if i decided to even go instrument rated?
Click to expand...

Personal opinion: don't buy a tablet at this point if the only reason to get it is to reduce the need for paper charts. I can't see how it would help you much as a student. Wait till you earn your private certificate, then and only then consider what is useful.
 
Agreed. You're going to need paper charts to learn to plot out a course, measure it, etc etc etc. Save the iPad as a gift to yourself later.
 
I started using an iPad (Foreflight) for pre-flight planning and briefing as a post-solo student, only after I had a solid understanding of how to do it "the old fashioned way". Once I got my private I have started to use it as a navigational tool in the airplane, but this was only after I was comfortable with paper charts, my plotter and the whiz wheel.

My advice: spend your money on learning the basics now. Once you master the basics, then you can invest in the iPad, etc. I can't believe I wrote/think this with how "techie" I am in other facets of my life, but for me it was the right way to go. :)
 
Ditto. Wait on the iPad until after understanding the basics. It's a great tool, but without the fundamentals, you can easily use it wrong or get into trouble.
 
denverpilot said:
You're going to need paper charts to learn to plot out a course, measure it, etc etc etc. Save the iPad as a gift to yourself later.
Click to expand...
Concur 100%. The day may come when the FAA won't require you to plot and measure courses in order to earn your Sport/Rec/Private certificates, but that day is not yet here. In addition, learning how to do that and doing it helps build your sense of what's right and not right so when your electronic device demonstrates the "garbage in, garbage out" axiom for digital devices, you recognize that something ain't right before you end up either out of gas or in a restricted area.
 
It's a good question. My wife is agitating for a tablet of some sort to take with her various places for email and that sort of thing. And Facebook, of course... sigh.

Anyway, it looks like the iPad has much better support from both aviation software and hardware providers. By hardware, I mean things like yoke mounts, knee boards, etc. I am not at all thrilled with the idea of an iPad, for various reasons I won't go into here. Android support seems to be gaining ground.

The way I figure it, I won't use a tablet during flight instruction. I want to be sure I am very good at the basics, especially navigation, without any dependency on anything other than Mk1 eyeballs and the most basic instruments. I'm perfectly fine with paper charts and all, and the last thing I want is the distraction of trying to deal with a whiz-bang tablet while also learning to aviate, navigate and communicate.

So we'll get my darling bride whatever tablet we get, with little or no regard for its potential aviation applications. If it works out to be perfect in the cockpit later on, great -- score! If not, no big deal. At some point we'll end up taking longer cross country trips, and I am pretty sure airplane ownership is in our not-too-distant future. There will probably come a time that I decide to use a tablet of some sort while flying, but I can't predict at this time whether it will be just for keeping charts, AFD and NOTAMS, or more than that. So I'll hold off a while on making a decision on something for flying, and I am sure there will be significant changes in what's available for software on the different platforms. I'm also betting there will be a pretty clear consensus on which Android tablet does the best job in the cockpit.
 
In addition to the valid reasons noted above, consider the pace at which computing toys are evolving. If you aren't looking to start your training for another year hand off a while longer on purchasing the toys. They'll be just that much more advanced when you finally need them.
 
Count me in, too. For beginning primary students, it's just something else to get in the way and distract you. Learn first with a plotter and paper charts. I don't even recommend using a panel-mount GPS until you have the old-fashioned way thoroughly mastered. - Russ
 
Used to know a couple who owned a Baron (twin engined airplane). Occasionally, they would meet up with other airplane owners and fly somewhere for breakfast. Once, they were chided by a Mooney owner for not having a moving map, such as installed is his aircraft. The couple replied, "We have a moving map: She hands me the map, I hand her the map..."

You won't appreciate an ipad until you've done with out for a while. There are plenty of other distractions when learning to fly. I'd hold off.
 
I'll make it unanimous. Hold off on the electronic device. You will get one eventually, but you should at least start to learn without one.
 
While I am one to embrace technology, I would be in favor of learning to fly the old fashion way, with paper charts, plotters, and whiz wheels. Then once you master this skill, and pass your check ride, then you treat yourself to the technology.
 
I agree that this can wait until later.

That said, I'm a student pilot approaching the check ride. I have had an IPhone for quite awhile and not long after taking up flying again last Spring, I put Foreflight on my IPhone. It is exactly the same app as used on the IPad.

With it, I have weather, charts, A/FD, on and on and on, right in my pocket. In my training I have been very dedicated to using charts, E6B, plotter, etc for Pilotage and Ded Reckoning. That said, I did turn on the Foreflight once during one of my cross countries to see which of the two identical landmarks I was at. Other than that I do everything the old fashioned way.

You probably carry a cell phone anyway, so if you got an IPhone you can put Foreflight on it for $75 per year that gives you a license for IPhone PLUS a license for the IPad should you get one later.

You can even do a 30 day free trial of Foreflight.

It's really nice to be able to pull EVERYTHING in the way of aviation information out of your pocket at any time.
 
Thanks everyone for the advice. I guess I will hold off. Besides like others have said I can save the money and use for supplies, lessons and books. Maybe use the saved money on a decent headset before I solo. PoA rocks!
 
My son's CFI won't let him use our 430 or an iPad. For his first dual cross country, he zoomed the GPS out to 500 miles, so it was useless, and made him use a paper chart. I have to say I couldn't agree more, learning to re-fold a VFR chart is one of the hardest parts about learning to fly!:mad2:
Think about it, if you aren't going to be flying for over a year the iPad 3 or 4 might be out!:D twice as fast at half the cost of the iPad 2.:dunno:
Best of luck!
 
MBDiagMan said:
It's really nice to be able to pull EVERYTHING in the way of aviation information out of your pocket at any time.
Click to expand...

Everything except the chart legends. ;)

There's probably a few good books out there that it doesn't load up, too. ;) ;) ;)
 
N747JB said:
My son's CFI won't let him use our 430 or an iPad. For his first dual cross country, he zoomed the GPS out to 500 miles, so it was useless, and made him use a paper chart. I have to say I couldn't agree more, learning to re-fold a VFR chart is one of the hardest parts about learning to fly!:mad2:
Think about it, if you aren't going to be flying for over a year the iPad 3 or 4 might be out!:D twice as fast at half the cost of the iPad 2.:dunno:
Best of luck!
Click to expand...

Learning to re fold a map in an open cockpit will really try your skills. I used to carry two sets of sectionals in the N now with GPS I only need one. :wink2: Don
 
Y'all oughta see the Map Folding contest done at the AYA Convention every year -- complete with wind (industrial blowers), rain (garden hoses), turbulence (people rocking the chair), and the occasional birdstrike (rubber chicken).
 
If your a year away, the only "gadget" you should buy now is a good E-6B. They are expensive, around thirty dollars for a good aluminum one. Master that sucker while your waiting to start. They come with a little booklet that really does teach how to use it.

I bought one of those electronic E-6B from Sporty's and found it was useless in the airplane, at least at the training level. Way too much going on to be fiddling around pushing buttons and trying to remember what to push.

Where it was handy was in providing a double check method for my calculations on the real E-6B when I was at home practicing on it or using it for flight planning. It was a great confidence booster to come up with the same answer on the manually operated one as what the electronic one gave me.

In the air, with an instructor delivering countless questions, the airplane bouncing all over the place, the only E-6B that you can use successfully in the least amount of time, is the basic aluminum one. Don't even think of electronic gadgets until you get you PPL. Your instructor can save you a whole lot of money if you just run it by him/her before you buy any of those handy items found in aviation catalogs, such as Sporty's or King Schools.

Now, as a private pilot, I continue to use the manually operated E-6B. My Sporty's electronic one is sitting in a box somewhere out in my garage.

As far as buying all those other gadgets, forget it for now. Wait until you get your license.

John
 
Electronic tablet............you can wait.

As far as the reponses in regards to also waiting on the GPS, that's nothing but old fashioned baloney.

In contrast, to the old days, there are far more restricted areas across the country. With a good moving map GPS, these airspaces are well defined. You can keep your head out of the cockpit, and scan for traffic & birds, rather than trying to pinpoint objects on the ground, while comparing to sectionals. ATC can often recognize when the pilot is using GPS........due to a more precision ground path. Do use pilotage and ground objects, but not to the point of discluding a gps system.

GPS is the future. Get an instructor that's comfortable with it. Many are not. Some are intimidated because they're not up to date with the interfacing.

There will be a point, in which you'll realise that GPS offers much more, than was ever available before. You'll have real time inflight weather. You can easily make weather related decisions hundred of miles in advance. GPS with a good fuel monitor will keep a very accurate balance of your fuel supply. GPS allows for more direct flight planning. You won't be stuck with your head in the cockpit, attempting to triangulate between two VORS to check your position. You'll know exactly where you are at a glance.

Just figure on realistic flight planning before cross countries. Use a sectional, on-line planners, and figure exactly want you want to do, in addition to estimated fuel usage. You don't simply follow a GPS magenta line, as a mindless zombie. But with GPS, you have much more accuracy, than was ever available in the past.

Personally, I use portable Garmin 696 GPS with XM Satellite weather. I also carry up to date sectionals, which are opened..... and on a kneeboard.

I always say............that if an instructor throws your GPS into the backseat with a smirk on their face, then throw them out! This thought, does tick some "old school" CFI's off. I'm not a kid myself, as I'm over 60.

L.Adamson
 
Skylane81E said:
Just my humble,

iPad makes it too easy as well as giving you something else to learn, save the gadgets for later.
Click to expand...

My instructor taught me "lost" procedures without aids like it. I joked that when the GPS "died" at post-flight debriefing I could have just pulled out my iPad w/ Foreflight. He said he would have declared it dead anyway (including my phone) but I didn't try. Why? I thought (and still do think) it's important to learn how to do things without electronic conveniences because in an emergency, you might not have them.

It's like stick and rudder skills, they should be practiced regularly and don't forget to prepare for the worst.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
L.Adamson said:
I always say............that if an instructor throws your GPS into the backseat with a smirk on their face, then throw them out! This thought, does tick some "old school" CFI's off. I'm not a kid myself, as I'm over 60.
Click to expand...

As one of them young whipper snapper CFIs who likes to turn off the GPS, I think that your attitude doesn't do much for education of the student, nor confidence building, which is the goal for me.

You'd be amazed how much confidence it instills in someone (over 60) when you turn off the 530 and all other avionics, and get him to dead reckon over 100 nm home using a whiskey compass and a stopwatch, and end up within 5 miles of destination.

If a student throws me out for turning off the GPS, he or she is probably someone who needs the learning experience of being forced to fly without it.
 
L.Adamson said:
Electronic tablet............you can wait.

As far as the reponses in regards to also waiting on the GPS, that's nothing but old fashioned baloney.

In contrast, to the old days, there are far more restricted areas across the country. With a good moving map GPS, these airspaces are well defined. You can keep your head out of the cockpit, and scan for traffic & birds, rather than trying to pinpoint objects on the ground, while comparing to sectionals. ATC can often recognize when the pilot is using GPS........due to a more precision ground path. Do use pilotage and ground objects, but not to the point of discluding a gps system.

GPS is the future. Get an instructor that's comfortable with it. Many are not. Some are intimidated because they're not up to date with the interfacing.

There will be a point, in which you'll realise that GPS offers much more, than was ever available before. You'll have real time inflight weather. You can easily make weather related decisions hundred of miles in advance. GPS with a good fuel monitor will keep a very accurate balance of your fuel supply. GPS allows for more direct flight planning. You won't be stuck with your head in the cockpit, attempting to triangulate between two VORS to check your position. You'll know exactly where you are at a glance.

Just figure on realistic flight planning before cross countries. Use a sectional, on-line planners, and figure exactly want you want to do, in addition to estimated fuel usage. You don't simply follow a GPS magenta line, as a mindless zombie. But with GPS, you have much more accuracy, than was ever available in the past.

Personally, I use portable Garmin 696 GPS with XM Satellite weather. I also carry up to date sectionals, which are opened..... and on a kneeboard.

I always say............that if an instructor throws your GPS into the backseat with a smirk on their face, then throw them out! This thought, does tick some "old school" CFI's off. I'm not a kid myself, as I'm over 60.

L.Adamson
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. In the old days, you didn't very often risk enforcement action and finding an F-16 off your wing if you wandered across some unseen line. And there's no such thing as too much weather information.

GPS is the current technology. Do we teach pilots they shouldn't lean the mixture using EGT, but only by listening to the engine? Of course not. I have no argument with pilots learning how to properly use a sectional and plotter...but there's absolutely no reason not to introduce and teach technology at the same time.

I bought an iPad shortly after starting private pilot training - mostly because I wanted it for the other things it can do. But I quickly learned how useful it was in my training/flying - everything from checking weather and NOTAMs, to written test prep apps.

When I switched flight schools halfway to my private, the new-to-me airplane had an in-panel GPS, which my first plane did not. Even though the instructor was about as old school as they come, one of the first things I asked him to do was show me how the system worked, and he gladly did so.

While mindlessly following the magenta line is asking for trouble, properly utilizing the system and its resources goes a long way to making a flight much easier and safer.
 
Learn how to do it with the E6B and paper.. they dont have batteries that fail. And you learn HOW to do it...

Technology is a wonderful thing.. and when it fails you, its a sickening feeling if you dont have a fallback position.
 
Doggtyred said:
Learn how to do it with the E6B and paper.. they dont have batteries that fail. And you learn HOW to do it...

Technology is a wonderful thing.. and when it fails you, its a sickening feeling if you dont have a fallback position.
Click to expand...

Getting lost in VFR conditions doesn't kill enough pilots for it to even rate its own category in any of the accident statistics analysis reports (e.g Nall) that I'm aware of.

What does seem to kill is accidents where knowing your precise position and ground track is essential, but you don't have the tools. Such as flying in MVFR, IMC, or at night in hilly and mountainous terrain. Relying on dead reckoning or pilotage by reference to a sectional in these circumstances would seem unwise at best.

The finite resources of training time and money should be directed at those aspects that provide the greatest safety yields. While some time should be spent on pilotage and dead reckoning, the accident statistics seem to suggest that much more time should be used in effective use of those new-fangled navigation gadgets.
 
Doggtyred said:
Learn how to do it with the E6B and paper.. they dont have batteries that fail. And you learn HOW to do it...

Technology is a wonderful thing.. and when it fails you, its a sickening feeling if you dont have a fallback position.
Click to expand...

Jim Logajan said:
What does seem to kill is accidents where knowing your precise position and ground track is essential, but you don't have the tools. Such as flying in MVFR, IMC, or at night in hilly and mountainous terrain. Relying on dead reckoning or pilotage by reference to a sectional in these circumstances would seem unwise at best.

The finite resources of training time and money should be directed at those aspects that provide the greatest safety yields. While some time should be spent on pilotage and dead reckoning, the accident statistics seem to suggest that much more time should be used in effective use of those new-fangled navigation gadgets.
Click to expand...
Two very interesting comments that would seem (at first glance) to be diametrically opposed. But -- I think you're both spot on.

Having the latest technology in the cockpit could very well give you the edge if you get yourself into a really bad situation. You know, the ones that you should have avoided in the first place - like getting lost in IMC when you're not an IFR pilot, or flying into unknown terrain at night. If your ADM fails you badly, your GPS might keep you from getting killed because of it. That's a great reason to have it along and be comfortable with using it.

On the other hand, there may be those times when your iThingie failing leads to a situation that might not be life-threatening but just embarrassing and inconvenient. For those situations, it would be awfully nice to be able to pull out the paper chart and E6B and reach for the NAV receiver knob, and feel comfortable that it's a non-event because you KNOW how to use all that stuff, and you can figure out what you should already know, in just a couple of minutes.

I want to be able to use GPS and all the time-and-work-saving new stuff. It's pretty much second nature to me, I've been using stuff like that for a long time. I'll spend a lot of training time learning the basics until they become second nature, I can switch to more modern methods afterwards. What's going to take a little more discipline is in keeping those skills sharp just in case I need to use them some day.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
Y'all oughta see the Map Folding contest done at the AYA Convention every year -- complete with wind (industrial blowers), rain (garden hoses), turbulence (people rocking the chair), and the occasional birdstrike (rubber chicken).
Click to expand...

ROFL!!! Any video of that anywhere?
 
John Baker said:
If your a year away, the only "gadget" you should buy now is a good E-6B. They are expensive, around thirty dollars for a good aluminum one. Master that sucker while your waiting to start. They come with a little booklet that really does teach how to use it.

I bought one of those electronic E-6B from Sporty's and found it was useless in the airplane, at least at the training level. Way too much going on to be fiddling around pushing buttons and trying to remember what to push.

Where it was handy was in providing a double check method for my calculations on the real E-6B when I was at home practicing on it or using it for flight planning. It was a great confidence booster to come up with the same answer on the manually operated one as what the electronic one gave me.

In the air, with an instructor delivering countless questions, the airplane bouncing all over the place, the only E-6B that you can use successfully in the least amount of time, is the basic aluminum one. Don't even think of electronic gadgets until you get you PPL. Your instructor can save you a whole lot of money if you just run it by him/her before you buy any of those handy items found in aviation catalogs, such as Sporty's or King Schools.

Now, as a private pilot, I continue to use the manually operated E-6B. My Sporty's electronic one is sitting in a box somewhere out in my garage.

As far as buying all those other gadgets, forget it for now. Wait until you get your license.

John
Click to expand...

I agree. I started using the E6B in my first flying attempt 20 years ago. It is easy to use in the cockpit, and it sat in my flight bag for 20 years without the batteries running down.

Doc
 
Ted DuPuis said:
As one of them young whipper snapper CFIs who likes to turn off the GPS, I think that your attitude doesn't do much for education of the student, nor confidence building, which is the goal for me.

You'd be amazed how much confidence it instills in someone (over 60) when you turn off the 530 and all other avionics, and get him to dead reckon over 100 nm home using a whiskey compass and a stopwatch, and end up within 5 miles of destination.

If a student throws me out for turning off the GPS, he or she is probably someone who needs the learning experience of being forced to fly without it.
Click to expand...

I have to agree. Now the cfi should also teach the gps but you don't NEED to know gps but you do NEED to know how to get along with out one.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
As one of them young whipper snapper CFIs who likes to turn off the GPS, I think that your attitude doesn't do much for education of the student, nor confidence building, which is the goal for me.

You'd be amazed how much confidence it instills in someone (over 60) when you turn off the 530 and all other avionics, and get him to dead reckon over 100 nm home using a whiskey compass and a stopwatch, and end up within 5 miles of destination.

If a student throws me out for turning off the GPS, he or she is probably someone who needs the learning experience of being forced to fly without it.
Click to expand...


^^^^^^^^^
Words of wisdom, yes?

Doc
 
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