Question about slips...

SupraPilot

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Sort of a stupid question but this crossed my mind the other day after a quick flight in the warrior and talkin to a few people about what maneuvering speed really means...

i am a big fan of pulling the power and using a slip to slow and decend rapidly if i need to...
is it possible to do damage to the aircraft by doing slips at all??? especially from higher airspeeds..

Ant
 
It is possible to damage an airplane while slipping at too high an airspeed. I would be at or below VA when doing a slip. What comes to mind is the American Airlines Airbus accident in New York in 2001. I know they were not slipping, but they did lose the vertical fin due to excessive rudder inputs.
 
I wouldnt think you could hurt a Warrior in a forward slip, unless you stayed flat and managed to stall it at low altitude! :)
 
V_A, or maneuvering speed, is determined by calculating the speed at which it is possible to exceed the g-force rating of the aircraft. At speeds less than V_A, the wing will stall before excess loads can be applied to the airframe.

For example, if we imagine a 1000 lb aircraft with a positive load limit of 3 g, flight slower than V_A will mean that if the pilot tried to pull up at 3 g, the wing would be unable to produce 3000 lb of lift without exceeding the stall angle of attack. As speed increases, the angle of attack for a given amount of lift decreases. There is therefore a speed at which the wing can support 3000 lb just before it stalls. This is V_A. Above this speed, the pilot could develop more g force than the airframe is designed to handle (which is bad).

The slip is a one g maneuvre, so I can't see it being important whether you're above or below V_A. I would be somewhat cautious at high speeds, however, only because you can place large loads on the airframe with high speeds. As such, I'd move in and out of the slip smoothly. I'd also stay a fair margin below red line as your airspeed indicator will read incorrectly in a slip.

The Airbus tragedy referenced earlier isn't relavent to smaller aircraft, from what I understand of it. I believe the limit on full rudder deflection was a known "feature" of the design and was discussed in the flight manual or other documentation from the company.

Chris
 
SupraPilot said:
Sort of a stupid question but this crossed my mind the other day after a quick flight in the warrior and talkin to a few people about what maneuvering speed really means...

i am a big fan of pulling the power and using a slip to slow and decend rapidly if i need to...
is it possible to do damage to the aircraft by doing slips at all??? especially from higher airspeeds..

Ant
Nahh, you're fine doing slips, you can't really hurt an aircraft with a slip.
 
bobloblaw310 said:
It is possible to damage an airplane while slipping at too high an airspeed. I would be at or below VA when doing a slip. What comes to mind is the American Airlines Airbus accident in New York in 2001. I know they were not slipping, but they did lose the vertical fin due to excessive rudder inputs.

The Airbus deal had noting to do with a slip, that's a much more complex situation.
 
Henning said:
The Airbus deal had noting to do with a slip, that's a much more complex situation.

The Airbus accident did provide a graphic example that Va has absolutely no relationship with respect to the airframe being certified (or even tested) to withstand a full rudder deflection at that speed. In the case of a Warrior it is a probably a non-issue at any speed, but operating at or below Va in no way assures that full rudder deflection is safe.
 
The rudder is not the only control surface being deflected in a slip. The ailerons are also being deflected. Remember, each airplane has a speed at which full deflection above that speed could result in damage to the control surfaces. I would refrain from slipping at anyspeed above VA, this is a good practice and will keep you from damaging the plane.

Originally Posted by Ed Guthrie
The Airbus accident did provide a graphic example that Va has absolutely no relationship with respect to the airframe being certified (or even tested) to withstand a full rudder deflection at that speed. In the case of a Warrior it is a probably a non-issue at any speed, but operating at or below Va in no way assures that full rudder deflection is safe.

This is exactly my point and is why I referenced the Airbus accident.
 
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Simple Answer:

You aren't going to hurt the Warrior.
 
jangell said:
Simple Answer:

You aren't going to hurt the Warrior.

That seems likely, but it's a certainty if you are below Va (for the weight). Beyond that you are venturing into test pilot land and there are some minefields there.

While the forces involved seem acceptable, consider that they increase as the square of the IAS so if your Va is 90 kt and Vne is 180 Kt you could generate four times the force on the tail and wing structures at the higher speed. We tend to think of elevators and wing loads when we talk about Va, but from a certification (and likely design) perspective Va applies to full deflection of any control surface and only one at a time. For instance, AFaIK on some planes you can exceed design loads by pulling up at 3.8 g while simultaneously applying some aileron force.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
The Airbus accident did provide a graphic example that Va has absolutely no relationship with respect to the airframe being certified (or even tested) to withstand a full rudder deflection at that speed.
Actually, it wasn't the full deflection that was an issue there, it was the rapid reversals of full/near-full deflection which overstressed the system. Va is all about application of full deflection and holding it there, not cycling back and forth as the Airbus co-pilot did. I don't think there's any reason to believe that you could not overstress even in a light plane if the controls (including the rudder) were rapidly cycled back and forth from full one way to full the other several times at just the right (or, really, wrong) rate.

That said, if you put the plane in a slip and hold it there, you aren't going to get into that situation. As long as you maintain flying speed, and stay under Va (which is pretty likely if you're slipping, since that's normally used just on approaches to land), I don't see how you could damage the airplane.
 
well i am very cautious and i make sure that when i do a slip i am nowhere near the yellow arc...
all of these answers were helpful..
now that i know the warrior can take this sort of flying, is there any difference in 172 or 182's or anything..i mainly fly warriors but i do occasionally end up flying 182's or 172's...i would assume its the same concept for cessnas..just basically put in smoothe inputs and watch my speeds..

about the airbus accident..i thought that they found that there was a small repair made somewhere near the tail, that wasnt properly secured back together...like it was missing rivets or somwthing...
or am i wrong and it was total pilot error that caused that crash??

Ant
 
I may be proved wrong on this, but my instructor has always told me a forward decending slip to final is an allowed manuever when required, key thing he has always beat into my head is forward and decending and yep keep it in the green arc. Just dont start the manuever then loose to much altitude and pull up flat or climb while still in the slip, causes a few problems while too close to the ground.

Long way to say, I do it quite often in a Chrokee 180 and a 172 and a 182.
 
No issues with slips in 182's, but there's a placard in 172's that says to "avoid" slips with flaps extended in order not to get into an oscilliatory pitch mode caused by downwash off the flaps over the horizontal stab/elevator. Now, I've been slipping 172's with full flaps (including the older ones with 40 degrees available) and never experienced this, but I've heard from pilots who have. In any event, it's not life-threatengin, and if it does happen, you need only kick out of the slip and the problem will go away. Note further that this only involves Cessna 172's, and no other make/model.

BTW, a slip to a landing is a required maneuver in the Private Pilot PTS (Area IV, Task K), although the use use of flaps on this maneuver is not required, so if you don't want to slip a 172 with flaps down, you don't have to -- you can do this task with flaps up if you so desire.
 
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Well now that we talked about the airframe what about the engine? Cruise power and then idle and a slip sounds like there may be some shock cooling issues to consider.
 
smigaldi said:
Well now that we talked about the airframe what about the engine? Cruise power and then idle and a slip sounds like there may be some shock cooling issues to consider.
Unless you arrive on the downwind at cruise speed with cruise power, and then try a power-off approach from there, that should not be an issue. If you reduce power for the descent, slow up for downwind, reduce power to 1800 or so on downwind, reduce again to 1500 or so abeam, and only pull to idle on final at approach speed with the field made, you should do fine on engine thermal management even if you do need to slip on final after reducing to idle.
 
smigaldi said:
Well now that we talked about the airframe what about the engine? Cruise power and then idle and a slip sounds like there may be some shock cooling issues to consider.

Well, let's look at it. In a slip, you are slowing the craft with the relative wind no longer in a direct line with the cowl openings or the cyl fins. If one just put's the nose down, now we accellerate with the air flowing direct and straight into the cowl and cylinders. Which do you think has the greater cooling potential? Personally, I don't use slips much except for crosswind landings. I prefer to just pull the nose up and slow it down and let it sink. Remember, once you slow down past best glide the plane starts sinking faster.
 
Agreed Henning. When i tow gliders I manage the engine on climb to keep CHT below 400. Once glider is off priority is 1) dont crack engine and 2) get down. so its a full slip in a steep bank and power at minimum to maintain a 1 deg/sec cooling rate (per lycoming) With a full slip and keeping the *indicated* airspeed down around 60-70 mph i can bring the rpms back immediately to 2000ish. with the combination of slow airspeed and large sideslip angle the cooling just isnt there. it helps me go down at 1500-2000 fpm too!
 
smigaldi said:
Well now that we talked about the airframe what about the engine? Cruise power and then idle and a slip sounds like there may be some shock cooling issues to consider.

thats funny becasue just the other day i had a few people tell me that shock cooling is really just a myth and isnt something that should be worried about..especially with the newer engines and aircraft...
they told me back in the day it was more of an issue then it is today..
i ALWAYS have power idle when slipping to loose speed or altitude...i would think using power and slipping is just working against each other and there is no point

Ant
 
SupraPilot said:
thats funny becasue just the other day i had a few people tell me that shock cooling is really just a myth and isnt something that should be worried about..especially with the newer engines and aircraft...
Depends on what you mean by "shock cooling." There is no question that you aren't going to crack cylinders or heads if you do a high-speed idle descent -- quench cracking requires cooling rates on the order of a thousand degrees per second, not 50 or 100 degrees per minute, as you get in an idle-power, high-speed diving descent. However, under those circumstances, the cylinders will cool (and contract) faster than than the pistons and rings, and the result is faster cylinder/ring wear than is necessary, which shortens engine life.

i ALWAYS have power idle when slipping to loose speed or altitude...i would think using power and slipping is just working against each other and there is no point
At the speeds at which we normally slip on approach, there is not so much airflow as there is in a top-of-the-green dive, and airflow isn't straight down the cooling inlets, so the cooling rates are not as great. It's still not good for the engine, but it's not particularly bad, either.
 
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