Question About Flying Over an Ocean

[kylepetten]

Hey!

I'm not an American. I'm Canadian, so some of you may say that I do not belong here. And that's fine. However, I only came to ask one question and that is all. First of all; I do not have my pilots license yet, I am getting my private license with Air Cadets this summer, and in the fall I'm starting commercial/multi/ifr.

Here is my question (you may have to look at a map for this one:
Is it feasible to fly a Cessna 172 or similar type from Gander, Newfoundland to Montreal, Quebec via Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island? The flying distance is around 931 statute miles (1500 km). How hard would this be to fly in a single engine plane? how dangerous would it be? would it be possible for vfr? let me know please! very curious! cheers.

 

[silver-eagle]

Welcome to PoA. We have many from outside the US and Canada is "America".
The short answer is no, not directly. The range on a C172 is about 650nm. You would plan at least one fuel stop along the way. And there are certainly enough places to stop.

 

[EdFred]

John,
You might want to read the question a bit closer....

Kyle,
Not speaking of the legalities of Canadian airspace or flight rules (because I don't know em at all) - absolutely feasible. Your legs are 381nm and 457nm - well within the Cessna 172's range.

How hard would it be? No more difficult than any other flight of that length.
How dangerous? Depends on the upkeep of the plane, the weather the time of flight, the skill of the pilot...
Possible VFR? Depends on the day you leave.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Hey!

I'm not an American. I'm Canadian, so some of you may say that I do not belong here. And that's fine. However, I only came to ask one question and that is all. First of all; I do not have my pilots license yet, I am getting my private license with Air Cadets this summer, and in the fall I'm starting commercial/multi/ifr.

Here is my question (you may have to look at a map for this one:
Is it feasible to fly a Cessna 172 or similar type from Gander, Newfoundland to Montreal, Quebec via Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island? The flying distance is around 931 statute miles (1500 km). How hard would this be to fly in a single engine plane? how dangerous would it be? would it be possible for vfr? let me know please! very curious! cheers.

Canadian - no problem - you aren't the only one. Feel free to stick around.

Air cadets - Cool - have a great time!

Newfoundland - P.E.I. - Montreal - Yea. That's probabably how the 172 got there in the first place. 150 or so miles over water may be more than a lot of people are comfortable with (it would make me real nervous), but I'm sure it's been done lots of times. What are the odds that the engine is going to keep running for about an hour and a half? The grand total trip time will depend a lot on weather. One frequently has to sit and wait it out for a day or two. I've gone further in much less capable aircraft - distance isn't an issue..

 

[kylepetten]

Thanks everyone for all the welcoming! Haha.

Also, thanks for all the answers. Much appreciated. I was looking to possibly do this flight some time during the first year after I got my private license, and while i was doing my commercial, to head to a Montreal Canadiens game. Yes, I'm a habs fan. Maybe I do not see the nervous part as a naive non-pilot right now, but we shall see if I fly myself to a game or not in the next year!

 

[kylepetten]

also, when i asked if it would be possible for vfr, i knew that it depended on the weather, but i didnt know what the navigation would be like. i guess a gps would be needed eh? anyway, i guess there is not much need to get into detail, i will probably learn all of this ! thanks!

EDIT: wow, I said "eh". really fitting in here. lol

 

[AdamZ]

First welcome to POA we have had kiwis, Brits, Norwegians, Germans, Israelis and a few of your fellow cadinks if you fly you belong here!!

Water is a funny thing. Engines always run rougher over water or at least you think they do. I have no idea the distance between Newfoundland and Nova Scotia ( which is how I think I'd go) but if it is 150 miles over open water I'd not feel comfortable but others would. Sure as heck would want to have survival gear on board if I did.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

also, when i asked if it would be possible for vfr, i knew that it depended on the weather, but i didnt know what the navigation would be like. i guess a gps would be needed eh? anyway, i guess there is not much need to get into detail, i will probably learn all of this ! thanks!

A GPS would certainly be nice, and increase safety, but is not an absolute necessity. People were flying long cross-country flights LONG before GPS came out.

It looks like you should be able to fly that route via pilotage, which means that you just follow roads, rivers, etc. In combination with dead reckoning (flying a heading for a particular length of time, calculated based on forecast winds aloft), you shouldn't have too much trouble finding your way. Also, it looks like you can plan your route to avoid too much over-water time, looks like ~50nm at most. If you go nice and high (12,000-14,000 feet) you should be able to minimize your exposure time - It'll be measured in minutes, not hours - where you wouldn't be able to glide to shore if your engine quit.

You'll learn as you train and gain experience on your own that flying is a mix of stick-and-rudder skill, math and science, judgement, and risk management. Making them all mix properly is the trick.

Looking at going from Gander to Montreal, I would probably elect to make the stop someplace other than PEI - Go to the northwest and cross the channel near Anchor Point and you won't have to worry about over-water time at all, since it appears to be narrow enough there that you'd be able to glide to shore at any point in the crossing.

Have fun with your training, the planning, and the trip!

 

[Skip Miller]

i guess a gps would be needed eh?

Welcome, Kyle! No need to post and run because you are a proud citizen of Canada! This is the front porch of aviation; all are welcome here.

As to the need for a GPS: Absolutely not. Remember, Charles Lindberg had no GPS. It can be done without. Seriously.

Equally seriously, it will be easier with a GPS.

-Skip

 

[JesseD]

Get lost ya dirty canuck Well, I married one so who am I to talk

Depending on your skill, the weather, the load, and confidence in the plane itself, not a big deal. Personally, not something I'd want to do in a single yet. I'm still "wet behind the ears" and don't have that confidence, yet. Plenty of folks do it though, if you're renting, check with the FBO to make sure it's ok with them.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Arnold]

Welcome, Kyle! No need to post and run because you are a proud citizen of Canada! This is the front porch of aviation; all are welcome here.

As to the need for a GPS: Absolutely not. Remember, Charles Lindberg had no GPS. It can be done without. Seriously.

Equally seriously, it will be easier with a GPS.

-Skip

I've dead reckoned the North Atlantic, so I'd say you don't NEED the GPS. On the other hand, get one even if it is very basic. I like crossing the pond with the GPS much better than without.

 

[Arbiter419]

Hey there Kyle, welcome to PoA. I don't have much to add to the meat of the thread, just wondering if you're from PEI. That's where my family is, we go up every August.

 

[Ted]

Nothing wrong there, you can do that quite easily (and legally).

I'm planning on flying a similar route before too long - actually from Pennsylvania up to St. John's (CYYT). I'll be doing it in a twin, and personally these days, that's the only way I'd want to do it. However before I started flying twins, I flew over Lake Erie, Lake Michigan, etc. plenty of times in a single. So it's a matter of personal preference.

GPS isn't required, but is nice to have. VFR is no issue. You'll learn the Canadian regs.

 

[kylepetten]

Hey there Kyle, welcome to PoA. I don't have much to add to the meat of the thread, just wondering if you're from PEI. That's where my family is, we go up every August.

Nope, I'm from Random Island, Newfoundland. Been to PEI quite a few times though, beautiful place. Not as good as Newfoundland, but still beautiful.

Nothing wrong there, you can do that quite easily (and legally).

I'm planning on flying a similar route before too long - actually from Pennsylvania up to St. John's (CYYT). I'll be doing it in a twin, and personally these days, that's the only way I'd want to do it. However before I started flying twins, I flew over Lake Erie, Lake Michigan, etc. plenty of times in a single. So it's a matter of personal preference.

GPS isn't required, but is nice to have. VFR is no issue. You'll learn the Canadian regs.

That's interesting "Ted DuPuis" I only live a short distance from St. John's. Maybe PM me when you decide to do it. I'd like to try to make it out there to meet you, if you don't mind. I take every opportunity I receive to meet pilots, haha. Let me know!

And thanks for all the answers! I think as a non-experienced pilot (which I will be if I take this flight within the next couple years) I believe I will get a GPS, just to be on the safe side And Anchor Point looks like a better location by far, I agree.

Cheers.

 

[Ted]

That's interesting "Ted DuPuis" I only live a short distance from St. John's. Maybe PM me when you decide to do it. I'd like to try to make it out there to meet you, if you don't mind. I take every opportunity I receive to meet pilots, haha. Let me know!

It's easy to tell when I visit Canada - I'm usually the only N-registered piston plane that shows up that month!

And thanks for all the answers! I think as a non-experienced pilot (which I will be if I take this flight within the next couple years) I believe I will get a GPS, just to be on the safe side And Anchor Point looks like a better location by far, I agree.

Even with 1300 hours, I still would rather make the trip with the GPS. There's no shame in wanting what help you can get, and most of Canada has a whole lot of nothing. Remember, people did successfully do it before these tools. However, a lot of people also died when they thought they could do it and failed. I'll take all the help I can get, thank you.

 

[4CornerFlyer]

Are you people out of your minds? Flying the North Atlantic track without GPS? Yes, Lindbergh did it, but it isn't 1927 anymore.

Even a cheap hiker's GPS gives more accuracy than NDB's and the limited VOR coverage up that way.

Jon

 

[EdFred]

Are you people out of your minds? Flying the North Atlantic track without GPS? Yes, Lindbergh did it, but it isn't 1927 anymore.

Even a cheap hiker's GPS gives more accuracy than NDB's and the limited VOR coverage up that way.

Jon

LOL, he's not flying the North Atlantic.

 

[Ted]

Are you people out of your minds? Flying the North Atlantic track without GPS? Yes, Lindbergh did it, but it isn't 1927 anymore.

They ferried planes across the North Atlantic that way for long after 1927...

And nobody actually suggested that, if you pay attention.

 

[airdale]

I have flown essentially that route, Montreal to Deer Lake. Deer Lake is IIRC about 60 nm (over land) west of Gander.

I did not take the PEI route outbound, rather going up the north coast of the Gulf of St. Laurence (not really ocean, of course) and crossing near L'Anse au Clair -- just a few nm over water. Coming back, I took the south shore route, crossing the gulf at the tip near Cape Ray. IIRC I felt I had less than 30 minutes where I couldn't glide to shore from 7500' in a loaded Cherokee Six. Solo in a 172 and maybe flying higher you will have less or no exposure. PEI is an easy stop via that routing.

Re all the silly talk about GPS, this area has distinctive coastline and rivers. And since there are so few roads, you will easily be able to identify the ones you fly over, like Highway 1 leading to Gander. I don't fly without a GPS in the airplane, but compared to, for example, South Dakota or Nebraska, this is a piece of cake for navigation by pilotage.

But ... don't cut the fuel short. Those coastal airports can go from CAVU to solid fog in ten minutes. I have seen it! And the airports are not at all close together. Don't fly late in the day and consult locals if you can. I would plan an hour reserve plus fuel to get from a coastal destination airport to a trustworthy-looking alternate, inland if possible.

 

[bstratt]

I've flown the route from Chicago to Gander to visit my parents (north shore of Bonavista Bay). The Canadian required safety gear to transit the ocean route, as well as my own discomfort crossing that much COLD water with a single engine, were the deciding factors in me going up the Northern St. Lawrence shore and crossing to St. Anthony. There is no reason why you can't fly your route but reasons why you may decide not to.

I would echo about checking for fuel availability. When I left Gander my first intended fuel stop was Lourdes-de-Blancs Sablons, however after landing found out they had run out a few weeks earlier. This necessitated a back track to St. Anthony to refuel.

 

[4CornerFlyer]

Silly me for thinking a post entitled Question About Flying Over an Ocean had something to do with an actual ocean.

In any case, I stand by the belief that GPS is the primary navigation tool in the world today, and while you can always find manly men to say they don't need that newfangled sissy stuff, it's just silly to suggest a new pilot fly without it anymore. Flame away.

 

[Ted]

Silly me for thinking a post entitled Question About Flying Over an Ocean had something to do with an actual ocean.

In any case, I stand by the belief that GPS is the primary navigation tool in the world today, and while you can always find manly men to say they don't need that newfangled sissy stuff, it's just silly to suggest a new pilot fly without it anymore. Flame away.

Who said that newfangled GPSs are for sissies?

The statement by everyone was that no, you don't absolutely need it, but you should have one anyway. That seems like everyone suggesting to use one.

New pilots should learn how to use both the new and old navigation equipment. Of course, once they get their certificates, 90% of the time they'll end up using the new stuff.

 

[Arnold]

Are you people out of your minds? Flying the North Atlantic track without GPS? Yes, Lindbergh did it, but it isn't 1927 anymore.

Even a cheap hiker's GPS gives more accuracy than NDB's and the limited VOR coverage up that way.

Jon

Well since I'm the one who did fly the North Atlantic w/o GPS and you think I'm "out of my mind" (young and immortal is closer) let me add a few facts.

This was 1987 the aircraft was the one you see in my Avatar. Oh yeah did I mention it was 1987. Long before GPS was available. The only other alternative was inertial reference and with the fuselage filled with fuel tanks there was no place to put one, they take up a bit of space. Also, I was well outside the track system. I was below it, I was north of it and I did not have the equipment required to fly it.

After leaving the UK stops were in Reykjavik, Nuuk (Godthåb) Greenland, Goose Bay, BOS. The longest DR leg was Nuuk to Goose, about 600nm. When we picked up VOR/DME from Goose we were exactly 20 miles off course. It is all about the winds aloft forecast.

My last North Atlantic flight was in 1992 and we had a very basic GPS receiver and an IR unit. Much easier than DR.