Question about entering an approach?

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Melissa2983298

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Melissa
So let's say, for example, I was flying into this airport and approaching form the Southeast. If I want to fly the procedure turn, how would I enter it? If I should enter where the procedure starts, and turn left to 224, how would I know I'm where the procedure turn starts? (Since there isn't a crossfix radial I can use and no DME mileage at that point?

www.airnav.com/depart?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1411/00618V36.PDF

Thank you VERY much for your help!
 
I may be misunderstanding what you mean by "entering" his approach, but you can't just jump into the middle of the procedure. You must enter that procedure at the IAF, which is FNT VOR. As for how far out you go before initiating the reversal, that's entirely up to you as long as you stay within the 10 nm limit.

What I teach for approaches like this is to look at how much altitude you have to lose on the outbound leg, and then on the inbound leg. I base the distance to fly out on the amount of time it will take for the larger of the two. In this case, say you're cleared direct to FNT VOR and told "Maintain 3000 until established, cleared VOR 36 approach." You have to lose 500 feet going out (3000 down to 2500), and 1700 coming back (2500 down to the runway at about 700 MSL). Using a typical 500 ft/min on the outbound, and 800 ft/min for the nonprecision descent back inbound, that gives you about one minute for the VOR-PT descent, and a bit over two minutes for the PT-RWY descent. Based on that, I'll go two minutes out then make the right turn to 224.

OTOH, if you look at the VOR 29 at BDR starting at BDR VOR, you will see that you cross SCRAB outbound (the IAF) at 1500, do the PT at 1500, and then cross SCRAB inbound (the FAF) at 1500. With no altitude to lose either way, I'll make the right turn to 140 as soon as I'm established outbound from SCRAB.

And on the third hand, if you look at the VOR-A at PSK, if you are given 6000 to PSK VOR, you have to lose 1000 feet down to 5000 on the outbound but only 900 more down to 4100 on the inbound back to the VOR. Since the 1000 outbound is the long pole in my tent, I'll cross the fix, descend to 5000, and as soon as I'm stabilized at 5000, make the left turn to 166 for the reversal. Of course, if you were sent to PSK at 5000 for this approach, then the 900 foot altitude loss on the inbound leg would be the long pole in the tent, and you'd need to go out close to two minutes at 5000 MSL before initiating the reversal (assuming a normal 500 ft/min descent on that intermediate segment from PT to FAF as opposed to an 800 ft/min descent on the final segment from the FAF to MAP).
 
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I would say, 1st fly to FLINT IAF then outbound on the 179 radial from FLINT (FNT) then do the procedure turn as depicted on the 224 deg. Heading.
 
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Whoops. Ron beat me to it and is the expert in this arena..
 
Bravo said:
I would say, 1st fly to FLINT IAF then outbound on the 359 radial from FLINT (FNT) then do the procedure turn as depicted on the 224 deg. Heading.
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I think you'd do a lot better to go outbound on the 179 radial, but I suspect that was just a mind-glitch on your part. However, the question I think the OP is really asking is how far out to go on that radial before initiating the turn. It's a question we discuss in some detail during IR training, and as discussed in my post #2 above, one which has no "canned" answer -- only a process of analysis to come up with a good answer for that particular approach procedure given the entry altitude assigned.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think you'd do a lot better to go outbound on the 179 radial, but I suspect that was just a mind-glitch on your part. However, the question I think the OP is really asking is how far out to go on that radial before initiating the turn. It's a question we discuss in some detail during IR training, and as discussed in my post #2 above, one which has no "canned" answer -- only a process of analysis to come up with a good answer for that particular approach procedure given the entry altitude assigned.
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I actually cought that before your reply. :D was a brain fart. I think she was actually thinking she possibly could enter on the outbound leg of the procedure turn.

Edit. For example, she said "If I should enter where the procedure starts, and turn left to 224"
 
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Thank you very much! That makes a lot more sense now! I had a major brain fart and forgot to enter an approach, you go to the IAF and then execute the approach. I just had my first approach lesson today and am still trying to understand all the basics. If you were to go to the FNT VOR to enter, it would be a right turn since that is the protected side, right?
 
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Melissa2983298 said:
If you were to go to the FNT VOR to enter, it would be a right turn since that is the protected side, right?
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Yes, it would. You must do the reversal on the barbed side, no matter what type of reversal you do (45-180, 80/260, teardrop, racetrack, whatever).
 
Thanks again! I've been trying to understand all of these concepts, and I was just wondering if you could recommend a good website or book that goes into all of this on a detailed level with explanations/examples?
 
Melissa2983298 said:
So let's say, for example, I was flying into this airport and approaching form the Southeast. If I want to fly the procedure turn, how would I enter it? If I should enter where the procedure starts, and turn left to 224, how would I know I'm where the procedure turn starts? (Since there isn't a crossfix radial I can use and no DME mileage at that point?

www.airnav.com/depart?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1411/00618V36.PDF

Thank you VERY much for your help!
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Take a look at these tutorials, with special emphasis on slide #53 of the Gulfport VOR approach. The first tutorial gives you the needed background to understand the reasoning:

http://www.avclicks.com/Flash2/To_the_Rear_March/index.html

http://www.avclicks.com/Flash2/Gulfport_VOR_14/index.html

dtuuri
 
Melissa2983298 said:
............., how would I know I'm where the procedure turn starts? http://www.
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As others have indicated you initiate by crossing the VORTAC and flying outbound on the 179* radial. Equipped with only a VOR you'd estimate your outbound groundspeed so as to start your procedure turn far enough out so you can comfortably get down to MDA before the missed approach point keeping in mind you must "remain within 10 NM". For the typical lightplane the standard (no wind) is 2 minutes outbound from IAF to the first turn, adjust from there plus or minus depending on wind/estimated groundspeed. If you've got DME that makes it easier as then you have actual realtime groundspeed plus actual distance information, equipped thus'ly I generally want to be at least 4 nm out before starting the PT, here again.......you might want to adjust for the wind.
 
AIM 5-4-9 "a barbed arrow indicates the maneuvering side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot (limited by the charted remain within xx NM distance)."
 
Melissa2983298 said:
and I was just wondering if you could recommend a good website or book that goes into all of this on a detailed level with explanations/examples?
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There is an excellent (and free) pdf document from FAA: Instrument Procedure Handbook 2014

bqmassey said:
Do you have a reference for that off the top of your head?
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Yes, page 4-52 in the above source.
 
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bqmassey said:
Do you have a reference for that off the top of your head?
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Not off the top of my head, but out of the AIM Section 5-4-9a:
1. On U.S. Government charts, a barbed arrow indicates the maneuvering side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot (limited by the charted remain within xx NM distance). Some of the options are the 45 degree procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the teardrop procedure turn, or the 80 degree $ 260 degree course reversal. Racetrack entries should be conducted on the maneuvering side where the majority of protected airspace resides. If an entry places the pilot on the non-maneuvering side of the PT, correction to intercept the outbound course ensures remaining within protected airspace. Some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted.
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BTW, the graphic accompanying that paragraph provides a good visualization of why this is important:

aim0504_At%20Anchor0.png
 
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peerlesscowboy said:
As others have indicated you initiate by crossing the VORTAC and flying outbound on the 179* radial. Equipped with only a VOR you'd estimate your outbound groundspeed so as to start your procedure turn far enough out so you can comfortably get down to MDA before the missed approach point keeping in mind you must "remain within 10 NM". For the typical lightplane the standard (no wind) is 2 minutes outbound from IAF to the first turn, adjust from there plus or minus depending on wind/estimated groundspeed.
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There is no such "standard" time -- you have to do the analysis I discussed above for every PT approach or too often you're going to find yourself unable to descend down to MDA in time to find the airport before you reach the MAP.

If you've got DME that makes it easier as then you have actual realtime groundspeed plus actual distance information, equipped thus'ly I generally want to be at least 4 nm out before starting the PT, here again.......you might want to adjust for the wind.
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Again, there is no "standard" distance, and 4nm is often not enough to get you far enough out to make it down to MDA in time. That said, for the average light plane flying a PT in the 90-120 knot range, you'd better start the reversal by 2nm before the limit (e.g., 8nm for the usual 10nm limit) or you'll likely spill out beyond the limit.
 
Ron Levy said:
There is no such "standard" time -- you have to do the analysis I discussed above for every PT approach or too often you're going to find yourself unable to descend down to MDA in time to find the airport before you reach the MAP.
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There are "standard operating procedures" (SOPs) and John offered up his. I detail mine in the tutorials I cited above. Most instructors teach a "standard time" for the outbound leg. In the OP's example, it's a no-FAF type of approach (no timing table), so the pilot needs to establish the length of the final approach and make sure it's long enough to descend to MDA (circling) or the runway (straight-in). The two you added for comparison have an FAF and timing tables, making the outbound timing decision easier--all you need to do is remain within the distance limit. Your technique doesn't mention groundspeed. What is the maximum groundspeed and associated timing that keeps you in the protected airspace? In my tutorials I step through a process for establishing those parameters for five and ten mile PT distance limits, so pilots can have confidence in the safety of the procedure. I show how the AIM's "airspeed" limit is inadequate. I would consider my procedure a "standard" one.

Ron Levy said:
Again, there is no "standard" distance, and 4nm is often not enough to get you far enough out to make it down to MDA in time. That said, for the average light plane flying a PT in the 90-120 knot range, you'd better start the reversal by 2nm before the limit (e.g., 8nm for the usual 10nm limit) or you'll likely spill out beyond the limit.
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If you know you're within a certain maximum groundspeed and you fly out within a certain maximum time limit (SOP), you don't need distance information. Your procedure seems more occupied with "getting down" rather than "keeping within", unless there's more to the story.

dtuuri
 
Thank you very much everyone! One more question! I'm not sure if anyone was taught this way, but my instructor was saying if there's a final approach fix, you run the five Ts three times, and if there isn't, you run them twice. Where would you run the five Ts at? Wouldn't it be the IAF, when you turn the procedure turn and the final approach fix? And if there isn't one, just at the IAF and when you turn the procedure turn?

Also, one other question! Let's say you were going to execute this approach and enter from the SE. Would you fly to the IAF, cross over at a 304 heading, then execute the procedure turn and come inbound?
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1411/05508VA.PDF
 
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Melissa2983298 said:
Thank you very much everyone! One more question! I'm not sure if anyone was taught this way, but my instructor was saying if there's a final approach fix, you run the five Ts three times, and if there isn't, you run them twice. Where would you run the five Ts at? Wouldn't it be the IAF, when you turn the procedure turn and the final approach fix? And if there isn't one, just at the IAF and when you turn the procedure turn?
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You'll have to ask Cap'n Ron, I've never used 'em.

Melissa2983298 said:
Also, one other question! Let's say you were going to execute this approach and enter from the SE. Would you fly to the IAF, cross over at a 304 heading, then execute the procedure turn and come inbound?
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1411/05508VA.PDF
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You really are just beginning aren't you? :)

Take a look at the distance limit on that one--it's for Cat A only. Also look at the maximum altitude over the fix outbound. Just suppose you were at the maximum altitude--how would you plan to lose all that altitude and stay within the distance limit? Start thinking like an IFR pilot--you're PIC, try to fig'r it oot.

dtuuri
 
Melissa2983298 said:
Would you fly to the IAF, cross over at a 304 heading, then execute the procedure turn and come inbound?
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and what other option did you think of:confused:
Did your instructor recommend any reading material for you?
You may benefit from reading a very thick Rod Machado's Instrument Pilot's Handbook - it reinforces many concepts like this through examples, accident stories, jokes, etc.
 
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dtuuri said:
You'll have to ask Cap'n Ron, I've never used 'em.

dtuuri
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Me neither. I have the impression that the "5 Ts" thing is something developed by Peter Dogan, PIC founder so I'm sure Ron promotes the practice as it's part of the PIC method and may be a useful mental checklist for some folks? I tried incorporating it early in my instrument training and found it an unnecessary distraction.
 
Melissa2983298 said:
Thank you very much everyone! One more question! I'm not sure if anyone was taught this way, but my instructor was saying if there's a final approach fix, you run the five Ts three times, and if there isn't, you run them twice. Where would you run the five Ts at? Wouldn't it be the IAF, when you turn the procedure turn and the final approach fix? And if there isn't one, just at the IAF and when you turn the procedure turn?
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Melissa, the 5-Ts are just a mnemonic reminder of a series of tasks that need to be considered when crossing fixes and changing directions. It's just a way of reminding you what they are. As you gain experience, unless you are "into" mnemonics (I'm on the other side of the spectrum I see them as a way of avoiding learning), you will find that these tasks are obvious and normal (yep, definitely a good idea to make sure you have the right radial dialed in when intercepting the inbound course!)

What's also important to remember is that, like all mnemonics, the Ts and how to use them will vary from instructor to instructor. Playing mind-reader, what your instructor is probably saying (you need to ask him) is that on a no-FAF approach, the two times would be when crossing the IAF for the procedure turn outbound and then when intercepting the extended FAC inbound. His third for a FAF-approach is probably when crossing the FAF.

Question: are you looking at actual approaches to understand why and where or are you trying to learn this as an abstraction? The latter is a particularly bad idea.
 
I'm not a huge fan of the 5T's either, but use them occasionally. What I like better is telling and reminding yourself, "ok, at such-and-such a fix, I'm going to ____".

Of course, you can use both, but if you only use the 5Ts...you're being reactive rather than proactive. You're going to get to a fix and might have to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what you're supposed to do for each T.

After accidentally turning the wrong way during a parallel hold entry during my training, I have included the direction of the next turn (in addition to the heading) during my "reminder" process.
 
The problem with the 5 Ts is that you need a mnemonic to help you remember in which order they're supposed to be done. When I bought my airplane, there was a makeshift placard on the windscreen that spelled them out.

I never learned them and never felt that I was missing anything.
 
azure said:
The problem with the 5 Ts is that you need a mnemonic to help you remember in which order they're supposed to be done.
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The more I looked at the 5Ts the more I realized it's a mistake to think they need to be done in a specific order.
dmspilot said:
I'm not a huge fan of the 5T's either, but use them occasionally. What I like better is telling and reminding yourself, "ok, at such-and-such a fix, I'm going to ____".

Of course, you can use both, but if you only use the 5Ts...you're being reactive rather than proactive. You're going to get to a fix and might have to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what you're supposed to do for each T
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I put both quotes together because I think the response is the same. Properly used (IMO, of course), the 5Ts are used proactively, as you put it, "ok, at such-and-such a fix, I'm going to ____". Go through the Ts in any order whatsoever and pull out the tasks you need to do.

Trying to make it something more than a before the fix briefing mnemonic is, I agree, an excellent way to get way behind the airplane.
 
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dtuuri said:
Most instructors teach a "standard time" for the outbound leg.
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I know. I've seen that on refresher training courses, and the result is usually ugly. Then I have to sit down and spend some ground training time getting them to understand the problem so they can come up with effective solutions rather than using an ill-fitting "standard" outbound leg time without understanding what they're trying to accomplish.
 
Melissa2983298 said:
Thank you very much everyone! One more question! I'm not sure if anyone was taught this way, but my instructor was saying if there's a final approach fix, you run the five Ts three times, and if there isn't, you run them twice. Where would you run the five Ts at? Wouldn't it be the IAF, when you turn the procedure turn and the final approach fix? And if there isn't one, just at the IAF and when you turn the procedure turn?
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As we teach it at PIC, on an out-and-back PT approach, you run the T's:

  • At the IAF
  • Making the displacement turn off the outbound radial
  • Making the 180-degree reversal turn off the displacement leg
  • At the FAF (if there is one)
So, we'd have you run them three or four times, depending on whether or not there's an FAF.

Also, one other question! Let's say you were going to execute this approach and enter from the SE. Would you fly to the IAF, cross over at a 304 heading, then execute the procedure turn and come inbound?
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1411/05508VA.PDF
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Yes, that's essentially how it's done, although I might instead say "fly to and cross the IAF, turn to intercept the 304 course outbound, fly out the correct time/distance, then execute the procedure turn and come inbound" to emphasize that the outbound leg is tracking the radial not flying a heading. It's important that you track the radial outbound rather than just flying a heading on that leg lest the wind blow you out of the protected airspace.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Me neither. I have the impression that the "5 Ts" thing is something developed by Peter Dogan, PIC founder so I'm sure Ron promotes the practice as it's part of the PIC method and may be a useful mental checklist for some folks?
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That's almost completely true, but based on my experience doing finish-up programs for folks who've had some training with other providers and are coming to us to push them over the hump to completion, I'd say "nearly all folks" rather than "some folks"


I tried incorporating it early in my instrument training and found it an unnecessary distraction.
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Based on a couple of thousand hours of instrument training given, I'd say your experience is most unusual.
 
azure said:
The problem with the 5 Ts is that you need a mnemonic to help you remember in which order they're supposed to be done. When I bought my airplane, there was a makeshift placard on the windscreen that spelled them out.
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No mnemonic or makeshift placard necessary -- we give you a sticker with them neatly and clearly printed which you can put on your kneeboard, glare shield, panel, or anywhere else in view. And my instructing experience is that without the 5T's, nearly everyone new to instrument flying either forgets a critical task at action points or does them out of order, which can dig them a hole (like when they get distracted trying to switch to Tower and report the FAF inbound before they start the timer and begin their descent, or trying to twist the CDI and talk on the radio during the 180 reversal on a PT or the inbound turn on a holding pattern and fall out of their altitude in the turn).
 
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Ron Levy said:
No mnemonic or makeshift placard necessary -- we give you a sticker with them neatly and clearly printed which you can put on your kneeboard, glare shield, panel, or anywhere else in view. And my instructing experience is that without the 5T's, nearly everyone new to instrument flying either forgets a critical task at action points or does them out of order, which can dig them a hole (like when they get distracted trying to switch to Tower and report the FAF inbound before they start the timer and begin their descent, or trying to twist the CDI and talk on the radio during the 180 reversal on a PT or the inbound turn on a holding pattern and fall out of their altitude in the turn).
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Yes, and it might have been just such a sticker that I was calling a "makeshift placard". But that's exactly my point -- the "5 Ts" are kind of a useless mnemonic if you need some other aid to remember the correct order.

So that begs the question. Mark says they don't have to be done in a particular order, you say bad things can happen if you do them in the wrong order. The latter is what I would expect too, but which is correct? It's been a while since I've flown with a panel where I needed to do all of the Ts (currently I fly with an eHSI, GPS with auto-slew and the capability to create holds on the fly and haven't needed to actually Tune in a VOR for holding in ages, except as backup) so I'm a little foggy on them.

(Might be a good thing to do on that IPC though, as I'm one failure away from being in a plane with a single radio and a conventional NAV head.)
 
azure said:
Yes, and it might have been just such a sticker that I was calling a "makeshift placard". But that's exactly my point -- the "5 Ts" are kind of a useless mnemonic if you need some other aid to remember the correct order.
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It's not a mnemonic -- it's a procedure, like the ones on your printed checklist for climb/cruise/descent/etc. If you can't remember the correct order, use the sticker -- that's why we print them. But trust me -- after a few hundred repetitions reading off the sticker, you'll have them permanently committed to memory. I haven't been in an A-6 since 1977, but I still remember "gear, flaps, slats, stab shifted, boards are out, hook up/down" for downwind in the traffic pattern. Ditto the RF-4C (last flight March 1980) and the Boldface EP's like "ABORT - throttles idle, chute deploy, hook down".
 
dtuuri said:
Take a look at the distance limit on that one--it's for Cat A only. Also look at the maximum altitude over the fix outbound. Just suppose you were at the maximum altitude--how would you plan to lose all that altitude and stay within the distance limit? Start thinking like an IFR pilot--you're PIC, try to fig'r it oot.

dtuuri
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It's do-able.......but if you were required to cross the Salem VORTAC @ 6000' to initiate you'd better be a-comin' right on down ;)
With a 90 knot approach speed and no wind a 45/180 PT eats up about 3 nm, that is to say from where you begin the 45* turn until you're coming back in and decreasing the distance from the fix will be three miles more than the distance where you started the turn. So let's fly one minute outbound (that's a mile & a half @ 90 kts) plus three more miles in the procedure turn, we're out to 4 1/2 nm, half a mile to spare.
Now if we cross the VORTAC @ 90 knots and maintain that, power back and set up a 1000 fpm descent rate immediately after crossing we'll go from 6000' down to 2500' (that's 3500 feet) in three & a half minutes. 45/180 PT takes a minimum of two & a half minutes plus the outbound minute = 3 1/2 minutes @ 1000 fpm (that's 3500 feet) :) So now we're established inbound outside the final approach fix just 100' above the FAF minimum crossing altitude, bring a little power back in for a nice comfortable 500 fpm descent rate and just come motoring right on in :D
OTOH, the 6000' is a maximum altitude I assume designed to keep traffic on this approach from tangling with traffic into Detroit and I doubt Detroit APP CON would keep you up at 6000' until crossing SVM.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
It's do-able.......but if you were required to cross the Salem VORTAC @ 6000' to initiate you'd better be a-comin' right on down ;)
With a 90 knot approach speed and no wind a 45/180 PT eats up about 3 nm, that is to say from where you begin the 45* turn until you're coming back in and decreasing the distance from the fix will be three miles more than the distance where you started the turn. So let's fly one minute outbound (that's a mile & a half @ 90 kts) plus three more miles in the procedure turn, we're out to 4 1/2 nm, half a mile to spare.
Now if we cross the VORTAC @ 90 knots and maintain that, power back and set up a 1000 fpm descent rate immediately after crossing we'll go from 6000' down to 2500' (that's 3500 feet) in three & a half minutes. 45/180 PT takes a minimum of two & a half minutes plus the outbound minute = 3 1/2 minutes @ 1000 fpm (that's 3500 feet) :) So now we're established inbound outside the final approach fix just 100' above the FAF minimum crossing altitude, bring a little power back in for a nice comfortable 500 fpm descent rate and just come motoring right on in :D
OTOH, the 6000' is a maximum altitude I assume designed to keep traffic on this approach from tangling with traffic into Detroit and I doubt Detroit APP CON would keep you up at 6000' until crossing SVM.
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I realize that the published hold there is for the missed approach, but in the event you were given such an altitude restriction, could ATC authorize a couple of turns in it (or some other, unpublished hold at SVM) at pilot request? That would be my first choice in that situation, I really HATE it when ATC tries to slam dunk me like that.
 
azure said:
I realize that the published hold there is for the missed approach, but in the event you were given such an altitude restriction, could ATC authorize a couple of turns in it (or some other, unpublished hold at SVM) at pilot request? That would be my first choice in that situation, I really HATE it when ATC tries to slam dunk me like that.
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ATC can certainly authorize holding there as published for that or any other reason, but other than coming off a missed approach on that procedure, you'd need specific ATC clearance to do so.

I would point out that starting at 6000 and then crossing back at 2400 would require descending 3600 feet in about 10 flying miles (staying within the 5 nm PT restriction). The TERPS limit for the initial segment (in this case VORTAC to PT) is 500 ft/nm, and for the intermediate segment (PT back to VORTAC) is 318 ft/nm. Assuming five miles out and five miles back, that would allow 2500 plus 1590 equals 4090 feet of altitude loss, so 3600 isn't unacceptable. However, on this approach, if restricted to 6000 until established, I'd definitely slow up to approach speed before reaching SVM in order to give myself a lot better chance of making a non-screaming descent through the PT.
 
azure said:
I realize that the published hold there is for the missed approach, but in the event you were given such an altitude restriction, could ATC authorize a couple of turns in it (or some other, unpublished hold at SVM) at pilot request? That would be my first choice in that situation, I really HATE it when ATC tries to slam dunk me like that.
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Yes, ATC certainly could. OTOH if you were #1 for the approach I'd guess they'd prob'ly have you down to 3000' or so crossing the IAF. If you were #2 they might give you something like "descend & maintain 4000' hold northwest of Salem as published expect approach clearance at xxxx".
Keep in mind that at least in this instance the six thousand is a MAXIMUM altitude. The "slam dunk" here is probably a purely hypothetical mental exercise.
 
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