Purchasing Foreign Aircraft

[JD318]

Has anybody here purchased a foreign aircraft? Any advice for someone exploring this option? Do's and dont's. What to look for specifically. Does the specific foreign country come in to play as far as what needs to be done? What kind of additional cost is there to complete the transaction? Is there a lot more risk in this type of transaction?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

JD

 

[Tom-D]

Has anybody here purchased a foreign aircraft? Any advice for someone exploring this option? Do's and dont's. What to look for specifically. Does the specific foreign country come in to play as far as what needs to be done? What kind of additional cost is there to complete the transaction? Is there a lot more risk in this type of transaction?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

JD

Do you believe Canadian aircraft are foreign?

If so, there are some great deals north of the border.

 

[GRG55]

Do you believe Canadian aircraft are foreign?

If so, there are some great deals north of the border.

There's a lot of commonality between the regulations north and south of the border, so Canada is arguably the easiest country to source one to import.

The US$ exchange rate is very favourable now (the Canuck Buck is only worth about 70 cents, soon to be renamed the Northern Peso). The Canadian economy has really slowed down with the oil price crash so there are now a lot of used certified airplanes heading to the USA. If you are shopping for a pressurized twin, turboprop or jet you'll find many Canadian registered aircraft that have been sent into the USA to brokers to sell.

One of the most important things to look for is complete logbooks. If there's logs missing it can be a lot more difficult. Undocumented or poorly documented modifications are something to stay away from completely. Review the logs in detail early in your screening process of any airplane you might be thinking of importing.

 

[weilke]

What to look for specifically.

An aircraft that is worth going through the additional hassle. Either priced right or with exactly the set of features you are looking for.

Does the specific foreign country come in to play as far as what needs to be done?

Yes.

Some countries have maintenance regs more comprehensive than the FAA requirements. Planes from these places are usually well documented and whoever does your conformity inspection won't have difficulties finding the information he needs (e.g. about STCs, compliance with ADs etc.). Of course, that is easiest if the maintenance records are in english.

In other places, maintenance requirements may be very formal, but in reality things are handled less formal. Maintenance records may be spotty or nonexistent. Maintenance may have been done using undocumented parts etc.

What kind of additional cost is there to complete the transaction?

Depends a bit on where the plane is. Buying a 185 in Ontario and flying it to Michigan is going to be less of an expense than crating up a plane in Thailand and shipping it stateside.

Is there a lot more risk in this type of transaction?

Again, depends on where the plane comes from. A couple of sources of risk:

- How does the country record ownership and liens ? You dont want to complete a transaction and then find out that there is some sort of lien on the plane or that the party you are talking to doesn't have legal authority to sell the plane.
- You need to invest money in travel, possibly bring a mechanic with you to inspect, pay a local shop to work on the plane without knowing that the transaction goes through. The risk is that you spend all this money and a transaction doesn't go through.
- The plane needs to be either ferried or crated. Some of the risk in that can be insured, some can't be insured.


So, buying a common US built plane that just happens to be registered in Canada can be a transaction no more complex and risky than buying a plane a couple of states over.
Otoh, buying a chinese built plane with a russian type certificate that is stored in pieces in a barn in Botswana may be a bit more complicated.

 

[JD318]

My intentions are to buy a common US built single engine plane. While looking, I periodically see some that are registered in Canada or Mexico. I don't know that I would seriously consider one from Europe, Africa, etc as I think the additional cost to get it here would be far too great.

Probably should have mentioned some of those details in the original post.

Obviously not ideal, but are missing logbooks a for sure "run as fast as you can" type of transaction? If some of the early years log books are missing, but last 30 years or so are intact, does that change the scenario enough to warrant exploring the aircraft? Can they be recreated or will an aircraft with missing logs be forever a problem?

 

[Brad Z]

My intentions are to buy a common US built single engine plane. While looking, I periodically see some that are registered in Canada or Mexico. I don't know that I would seriously consider one from Europe, Africa, etc as I think the additional cost to get it here would be far too great.

Probably should have mentioned some of those details in the original post.

Obviously not ideal, but are missing logbooks a for sure "run as fast as you can" type of transaction? If some of the early years log books are missing, but last 30 years or so are intact, does that change the scenario enough to warrant exploring the aircraft? Can they be recreated or will an aircraft with missing logs be forever a problem?

Is there a reason you're looking outside the US for a common US aircraft? My experience looking at the advertised asking prices for Canadian aircraft is that their CAD$ asking prices are adjusted upward to match the US value of the plane. The only airplane that would be significantly less would be one that an owner knows would be problematic to import into the US. That may include missing logs. Of course they may be willing to take less, but regardless of how relatively "easy" importing from Canada to US is, it's still more of a PITA than just finding the plane you like stateside.

 

[weilke]

My intentions are to buy a common US built single engine plane. While looking, I periodically see some that are registered in Canada or Mexico.

It seems to me that purchases from Canada are more common than from mexico. But that may just be because I live 2hrs from the canadian border ;-)

Obviously not ideal, but are missing logbooks a for sure "run as fast as you can" type of transaction? If some of the early years log books are missing, but last 30 years or so are intact, does that change the scenario enough to warrant exploring the aircraft? Can they be recreated or will an aircraft with missing logs be forever a problem?

The logs can't be recreated. What can be recreated is whether any of the ADs that may have applied during that time have been complied with. A knowledgeable IA will be able to tell whether some part was replaced or some required doubler was installed. When you import the plane, it will need an import inspection anyway to document that it conforms to the type certificate. If you have an expert in the type do the inspection, that kind of information can be documented with that step. Most ADs seem to migrate around the world. In a US built aircraft, if the FAA issues an AD, the civil aviation authorities in most other countries just copy and paste it over onto their letterhead and make them mandatory. Some countries are turn all manufacturers 'mandatory service bulletins' into ADs or they treat things like TBO as mandatory.

Missing logs ARE a problem when it comes to selling the plane. Buyers will use those missing logs as a tool to reduce the price.

 

[GRG55]

My intentions are to buy a common US built single engine plane. While looking, I periodically see some that are registered in Canada or Mexico. I don't know that I would seriously consider one from Europe, Africa, etc as I think the additional cost to get it here would be far too great.

Probably should have mentioned some of those details in the original post.

Obviously not ideal, but are missing logbooks a for sure "run as fast as you can" type of transaction? If some of the early years log books are missing, but last 30 years or so are intact, does that change the scenario enough to warrant exploring the aircraft? Can they be recreated or will an aircraft with missing logs be forever a problem?

Best you talk to someone who does conformity inspections about the logbook issue, as they will have the final say.

In general one has to be able to show that modifications to the airplane since it left the factory were done in conformance to the regulations and manufacturers instructions. And an older airplane will undoubtedly have many modifications such as upgraded avionics. Something as simple as an antenna installation can be a problem if the documentation is incomplete. Something like that example is not usually a big problem as the usual aviation solution of throwing money to fix the problem (inspect) will work.

However, let's suppose the aircraft interior was redone 15 years ago. Canadian regulations for fabric burn test standards are the same as the FAA. But if the logs are missing or do not have the correct entry by the shop to show the interior fabrics installed meet those burn test standards it'll be a problem, even if that work was done in the USA. Not easily fixed unless you can track down the shop and they still have the work order records.

I don't have any experience with Mexico, but Canadian logs are usually pretty complete and include a "journey log" that documents every flight, something not required in the USA.

 

[GRG55]

Is there a reason you're looking outside the US for a common US aircraft? My experience looking at the advertised asking prices for Canadian aircraft is that their CAD$ asking prices are adjusted upward to match the US value of the plane. The only airplane that would be significantly less would be one that an owner knows would be problematic to import into the US. That may include missing logs. Of course they may be willing to take less, but regardless of how relatively "easy" importing from Canada to US is, it's still more of a PITA than just finding the plane you like stateside.

Ordinarily all correct. But we seem to be in a bit of a special situation at the moment. The People's Republic of Canada (Canuckistan for short) sailed through the financial crisis almost unscathed - no subprime, no big house price crash, no big bank bailouts. Today? Not so hot. There's a reason the Loonie has collapsed against the US$, and depending on the type of plane greater potential to find "motivated sellers" in Canada than any time in the past two decades. Simple, low cost airplanes like a 172 may not have enough difference to cover the cost and hassle of importing, but if one is looking at Bonanzas, Mooneys, Lake amphibians and the like might be a different story.

You are correct about the currency adjusted prices, but asking price is just that. It is always easier to buy an airplane than it is to sell one. Even more so right now north of the border. The Canadian economy is heading into what might be the biggest downturn since the 1980s.

 

[coloradobluesky]

You are going to have to deal with
1. Additional paperwork
2. Plane will have to undergo a special import inspection
3. Plane will have to have a new N number put on it (and old one removed)

Thats expensive and there really is no good way of estimating it that I know of. And, if the plane does not pass the inspection, as it has unauthorized repairs or modifications, it wont be able to be imported.

Most dont bother.

 

[James331]

Canada and South Africa have some good deals, check out avcom (RSA version of this site) most Canadian planes can be found on the normal sites.

 

[bnt83]

It is not really a simple process for transport category aircraft.

You need a new FAA Certificate of Airworthiness, some FAA rep has to sign the line.

That usually means a lengthy research into every alteration, major repair, life limited part, burns, AD's, placards etc. Its basically a conformity inspection of the entire aircraft. If something is inop, it must be fixed or removed with FAA approved data.

 

[James331]

It is not really a simple process for transport category aircraft.

You need a new FAA Certificate of Airworthiness, some FAA rep has to sign the line.

That usually means a lengthy research into every alteration, major repair, life limited part, burns, AD's, placards etc. Its basically a conformity inspection of the entire aircraft. If something is inop, it must be fixed or removed with FAA approved data.

I doubt someone buying a airliner is going to be asking these questions on POA

 

[bnt83]

I doubt someone buying a airliner is going to be asking these questions on POA

I don't see how part 23 would be any different. To get a CofA the airplane needs to meet FAA regulations.

For example

Lets say Venezuela does not have an agreement with the FAA which says their technical data approvals are equivalent to the FAAs approvals. That mean any major repair or major alteration that was approved by the Venezuelan authorities must get an FAA approval before a CofA can be issued.

 

[James331]

Here's nearly new quickie for $12k,

http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=169965&sid=6eb338f847ce050cc7d2a134a32f8db9




500SMOH turbo t tail arrow for $46k

http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=168067&sid=6eb338f847ce050cc7d2a134a32f8db9


Etc

 

[weilke]

500SMOH turbo t tail arrow for $46k

http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=168067&sid=6eb338f847ce050cc7d2a134a32f8db9


Etc

Add to that:
- a trip to SA to inspect the aircraft
- hiring a local aviation attorney to handle the sale/liens/export paperwork
- hiring a SA based FAA A&P to confirm that that overhaul and any modifications the plane may have will pass muster at the import inspection.
- either a very complex ferry flight across the african continent, europe and the atlantic or the expense to disassemble, crate, ship, reassemble the aircraft.
- partial re-paint to change to the N number.


The reason light aircraft in SA are cheap is the constrained market. Many of the folks who used to fly in SA now live in a suburb of Toronto or Sydney and it is a long way from anywhere as far as light aircraft are concerned.

 

[James331]

I didn't see a mass exodus when I was over there, lots of folks in RSA selling for the same reasons as anywhere else, moving up, downsizing, family, whatever.

As far as expenses go, combine it with a vacation, South Africa is a awesome and economical vacation. There was also a yak I posted a while back on here which was a really good deal.


Another thought, as I know a few who have done similar, convert your ticket to a RSA ticket and fly the plane with its Z reg over here, have to look into it, but ether way if I could have found a deal like that on a 185 amphib over there I wouldn't have had a issue.

 

[N747JB]

For a common run of the mill 172/Warrior type airplane, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth. If it is in the US being handled by a US dealer or broker, it might be easier.

 

[JD318]

Does anybody's answers change if the aircraft was in the US and had an Airworthiness Certificate until just a couple of year ago (less than 5), missing logs from the first 800 hours (8-10 years), but all logs after that, including time in foreign country are complete?

 

[GRG55]

You are going to have to deal with
1. Additional paperwork
2. Plane will have to undergo a special import inspection
3. Plane will have to have a new N number put on it (and old one removed)

Thats expensive and there really is no good way of estimating it that I know of. And, if the plane does not pass the inspection, as it has unauthorized repairs or modifications, it wont be able to be imported.

Most dont bother.

According to the records in 2015 879 aircraft were exported from Canada. Since Canada isn't a hotbed of aircraft manufacturing ( Bombardier/Canadair makes some jets in Montreal and Diamond has an assembly facility for some models in Ontario and that's about it) its a reasonable assumption most of these were used airplanes and the majority probably got exported next door to the USA with its more valuable $. Not for everyone, and not a mainstream way to buy an airplane, but also not as uncommon or as difficult as some here are making out.

 

[coloradobluesky]

If that includes new aircraft you are going to have to have more info on how many of them were new for it to be relevant.

 

[GRG55]

If that includes new aircraft you are going to have to have more info on how many of them were new for it to be relevant.

Go back and read the post.

Canada has an active aerospace components sector but produces very few complete aircraft types, and those in pretty small annual numbers compared to pre-financial crisis volumes.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Very few? What is very few? 100, 500, 1000? Very few doesnt have the information needed.