Go tell them that they are doing it all wrong. It has been my experience that pointing out non-adherence to regulations will be answered with swift retalliation
Pros/Cons of Joining the Civil Air Patrol?
- Thread starter HighFlyingA380
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Go tell them that they are doing it all wrong. It has been my experience that pointing out non-adherence to regulations will be answered with swift retalliation
JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Go tell them that they are doing it all wrong. It has been my experience that pointing out non-adherence to regulations will be answered with swift retalliation
Again, like I said, contact RMR/IG, or NHQ/IG or CAP-USAF/IG.
The topic concerns me and I resigned and told the Wyoming wing bu bye..
With that email to the local group they sent that to the state head guy and he sent me an email asking why.....
Since it is not mission critical or private I will post those emails if anyone wants to read them...
And, as for the Colorado wing having one of their planes "taken" from them and given the the Wyoming wing to punish them for the misdeeds of a couple of their best and brightest,it would be interesting to hear the REAL story on why.. I have heard 1/2 dozen reasons why and none really pass the truth meter..
Anyone from Colorado wanna spill the beans......
.....
OkieAviator
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I would participate in CAP if you didn't have to play dress up and pretend you have a military rank. To me that's the most ridiculous part of it all.
You dont have to hold a rank. Just decline the promotion. I did. If you want to be just 'senior member' and keep bare shoulders you can do that. In my current squadron the only time people put on a polo and grey slacks is to fly an airplane, and that is because some reg says so. Different squadrons, different customs.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Not to mention that they're designed to be run by a command chain, and you can have a good command chain or a bad one...
And a good one can be gone in an instant and replaced with a bad one, which will be in place for a while, then replaced again...
ChrisK
En-Route
Like a job or politics or a homeowner association or a charity or really anything else that replaces leadership periodically. Not disputing your point at all. We have all left organizations with leadership that temporarily diverged from our world view.
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JeffDG
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yep...the only time I use any uniform that shows rank is when it's mandatory, otherwise nope. I think most people in my squadron don't own uniforms that show rank (I just need it for wing stuff from time to time)
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Is there such a thing as "try before you buy"? How many meetings does it take to figure out good or bad?
ChrisK
En-Route
You can show up without joining and ask all the questions you want or observe the goings on. In fact, many units require that you do this over a period of weeks prior to joining just so you know what you're getting into. Additionally, units normally have a "membership committee" which evaluates and approves new applications. In theory between the membership committee and proper application of the mentorship program, you won't even be able to join until you have a pretty good idea what is going on.
Units usually operate on a rotating schedule and some activities are seasonal; however, for a unit that meets weekly, I'd expect that in a month you will have seen at least 60% of what a local unit does on a regular basis, given a monthly largely repeating schedule. Since units set their own schedules, that's a good question to ask at your first squadron meeting!
Ha... Not the Jackson Wy Squadron... You show up, have 51 dollars. go the police station for finger printing, listen to all the wonderful bullsiht they feed you.... and
You will turn blue before they let you fly in their "Private" aircraft..
Ps... If you are retired military, then skip all the required steps and move straight into the left seat.... IMHO..
Been there, done that, been fed the kool aid.. Got over it...
ChrisK
En-Route
When I rejoined in 2010 I asked about the membership committee. They seemed a little surprised. Units are supposed to do a lot of things that they all don't do. If you don't like one, check out another.Ha... Not the Jackson Wy Squadron... You show up, have 51 dollars. go the police station for finger printing, listen to all the wonderful bullsiht they feed you.... and
You will turn blue before they let you fly in their "Private" aircraft..
Ps... If you are retired military, then skip all the required steps and move straight into the left seat.... IMHO..
Been there, done that, been fed the kool aid.. Got over it...
All the other 40+ members here in Jackson do NOT own a plane so they don't want to share their CAP one.....
Personally I don't give a rats ass since I have my own plane can fly whenever and wherever I want....
I joined because I wanted to help out fellow human beings that end up in trouble..... So much for trying to be nice and helpful.....
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
What's the rough breakdown of people in CAP because: they like the social aspect, they really do want to help when needed, they want to fly? I know there can be overlap. But from what I've been reading, it seems like there is also the type of member who likes to wear Nomex flight suits (Maximus size) and feel important.
IME, one. You can actually get a good feel on the initial meet and greet.
FredFenster
Pre-takeoff checklist
How does the Coast Guard air auxiliary program compare to CAP?
ChrisK
En-Route
See, I find these statements pretty odd. Most - if not all - of the pilots I work with either own or rent outside of CAP. The uses to which you can put a CAP aircraft are highly monitored and restricted. If you want to build time or maintain proficiency within those restrictions, I suppose you can; however, if all I had access to was a CAP aircraft that cost me as much or more than a rental 172 or 152 locally, I'd be really unhappy.
This idea that people are in CAP to use CAP assigned aircraft and to exclude others from doing the same is silly to me. I'd never get to do the flying I wanted to do, and I'm positive I'm not the only one who feels that way. When I'm in a CAP plane I'm usually on a CAP assigned mission or practicing on a CAP assigned mission profile. That does not help me fly my son to see my parents or fly for pie or run errands for my wife or whatever else I want to do in an aircraft, since these uses would never be released in a CAP plane.
The only real benefit I get from use of a CAP aircraft is now that I went through the PITA of a CAPF91 checkride, I can theoretically use CAP aircraft to pursue an advanced rating, but even this doesn't help ME much, since I'm going to be flying a rental R182 for the purpose.
Finally, I simply don't see the local 182s here in Ohio being booked solid, and there's no way that any local CAP units want to stop pilots from joining. If anything, we want our utilization numbers HIGHER. Sure, I've seen units drum pilots out for abusing their aircraft or trying to bend the rules / aircraft mission profiles, but at no time have I seen a unit try to keep pilots out. Heck, they're mostly in some sort of unspoken competition to have the most pilots.
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Silly or not, that is what happens here.... The plane flew about 200 hours last year. I believe there was just one mission.. They call all the other 199 hours "training" ..... And, this squadron is pretty clever as they have conned the local sheriff and S&R to fund them completely so anyone that flies the plane pays ZERO......Nada.. ZIP..... Not a penny......
Hence the reason they don't want to share (their) plane...
ChrisK
En-Route
Silly or not, that is what happens here.... The plane flew about 200 hours last year. I believe there was just one mission.. They call all the other 199 hours "training" ..... And, this squadron is pretty clever as they have conned the local sheriff and S&R to fund them completely so anyone that flies the plane pays ZERO......Nada.. ZIP..... Not a penny......
Hence the reason they don't want to share (their) plane...
Do they allow self-funded flights, or are those restricted too?
ChrisK
En-Route
Beats me.. I resigned and there is NO way I will let them lie to me any more.........
I'm just trying to understand and resolve problems. I find that most CAP problems are due to sticky personalities and a little eating crow at appropriate times usually helps grease some wheels. Then again, I find the same applies at work or in some other organizations in which I'm involved.
I have no idea what really happened out there. If the local unit was able to negotiate 100% funding for their aircraft, I think that's fantastic. 200 hours a year is pretty typical for a CAP aircraft considering it is generally flown by people with full time jobs or commitments elsewhere. Some aircraft don't even make that. In fact, I bet that number is pretty typical of personal aircraft that are not used in furtherance of a business.
Edit - I do want to point out that funded flying CAN get competitive in some circumstances which is why I asked. You mentioned that the aircraft flies 200 hours per year and there are 40 pilots. That's 5 hours per pilot per year. That ... blows =)
ClimbnSink
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Greg
It is a weird crowd. You know the folks that used to frequent Radio Shack back when they sold real electronic parts? Good number of them. Along with the pilots there seems to be a bunch of nonpilot aviation fans, that sort of odd, likes airplanes but won't or can't learn to fly for some odd reason. Then there are the recreational bureaucrat types there for the rules, all the precious rules. Most of the ex-military guys were amongst the coolest as they had had enough of uniforms and petty rules. For awhile we had a guy running it that just wanted to get stuff done and was excellent at clearing the way of BS. He followed the rules, knew them in and out and got everyone along easy. I had no problem getting checked out in the plane, we did have a couple of guys that played the funding game and flew quite a bit for free, not enough to exclude anyone else though.
As to not being recreational flying, well if your friends are in CAP as well then yeah you can go recreational flying together err I mean training. You can't bring the wife and kids(unless they join
) but fun flying/burger runs/just boring holes in the sky on the cheap happens plenty.
Yeah... But.... As a taxpayer here my share of the Sheriff S&R budget is about 1,000.00 each year...
I HATE paying for something I get NOTHING out of......
Actually, last month I get an email from the local squadron with the email heading of "SAFETY MEETING" since all those emails are cc'ed to national..
Further down into the email it said to come to the christmas party that is being held in conjunction with the " safety meeting".. To cover their ass, they passed around a one page report from the Gillette Wy squadron about a recent plane crash...
..I did get back all of my 51 dollar CAP membership dues though... And more... I ordered the most expensive steak on the menu.. And the most expensive dessert too....
......
OkieAviator
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It's pretty amazing they they can still get appropriated funding. I would of thought it would of been axed decades ago.
I wonder if CAP were disbanded tomorrow and all the planes sold off and a purely volunteer/donation-funded organization were put in its place (e.g. Angel Flight, EAA, etc) would the new organization be able to meet the mission? Personally, I'm not as interested in joining the former but might be interested in joining the latter.
mrkbbd
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Unlikely - it's going to be hard to get someone to donate time and money and have an airplane to go on a search and rescue mission, transport mission, or (a lot of LA CAP is picture taking of shorelines). CAP appears to have a pretty good safety record too because of the policies. I don't think you would have the same level of participation without some benefits like access to the airplane, getting to wear the uniform, going on missions at actual bases, etc.
OkieAviator
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I'm sure they could support a holistically self funded (donations) their own 501 C. Like I said I would participate if it didn't have that pseudo Military bit.
And you could still have access to military bases. I sit on the board of an AFCEA chapter and our monthly lunch meetings are held on an Air Force base, our monthly Executive meetings are held on base as well.
And you could still have access to military bases. I sit on the board of an AFCEA chapter and our monthly lunch meetings are held on an Air Force base, our monthly Executive meetings are held on base as well.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Even if you built it it would eventually evolve to bureaucratic hell, it is what modern humans do to everything.
ChrisK
En-Route
I think I can answer that.
The explanation is surprisingly simple. The USAF - via AFRCC - is responsible for 100% of federal inland search and rescue in the US (ref the documentation here). This includes flights which originate in one state and terminate in another. The USAF doesn't want to do it, and have authorized CAP as an instrumentality of the US government while on USAF authorized missions.
Flights that originate and terminate in the same state are covered by paragraph 9 of the National Search and Rescue Plan of the United States:
NSAR PLAN said:
The state governors, as signatories to the national plan, have all agreed to retain control and authority over local and intrastate search and rescue and disaster relief. Each state has delegated various emergency support functions to entities or organizations within the state. Sometimes CAP is included in this planning directly as a delegated agency. Sometimes they are secondary to a state agency.
The USAF also tends to assign various other missions to CAP, including interagency requested missions. This is part of the interagency agreement for disaster relief. If you really want, I can provide all of that information too.
The fact is, there is an awful lot more to CAP at a federal level than most people - this includes CAP members and private pilots - care to credit. Those in law enforcement or other governmental agencies or private SAR / DR organizations who have been to the "Inland SAR Planning Course" will recognize a lot of this information.
Since CAP is weighed down by a lot of historical bureaucracy and - seriously - government oversight and reporting requirements, it tends to be too inwardly focused. Folk in CAP are often more concerned about fulfilling the requirement of some regulation or other than they are in figuring out what CAP's role is in the bigger picture of the NSAR plan and why we do what we do. Pilots and others who join CAP and leave less-than-gruntled often do so because they also aren't exposed to this bigger picture.
I think if CAP had more people with vision and interest in understanding how all of this worked, they would be far, far better off as an organization, and would understand how they can actually become more the community benefit organization they should be and veer away from the fear of Uncle Government coming down and squishing them like bugs.
I seriously invite CAP's detractors to study all of this information and participate in making the organization better. GA doesn't have a ton of friends out there, and CAP is often in the position of ambassador. It might be wiser to chip in and help out than to - as some folk here seem to think - let CAP lead the charge on dismantling GA.
Don't forget that CAP was formed in order to prevent the feds from eliminating or severely restricting GA during the onset of WWII. I'd like to think that CAP can still help.
Circuit Flyer
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Thanks for that background!
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Not quite. CAP was formed so a couple of guys could have an exception to the severely restricted GA during WWII. And they did some damage to GA by demonstrating domestic GA bombing possibilities. Noncoastal or not playing along pilots weren't free to roam the skies during WWII because of CAP.
ChrisK
En-Route
Well that's not in the recruiting pamphlet!
ChrisK
En-Route
I am shocked the CAP left out any real data,,,
I see you missed my sarcasm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Civil_Air_Patrol#Origin
Wikipedia said:
It is easy to say that CAP's purpose was to restrict and damage GA, but that is disingenuous and probably not well supported by history. One can argue all day that CAP was or is bad for GA and I'd stand by and whistle or take part, but I think if you look at the stated purposes of CAP's formation, it was certainly not formed to benefit "a couple of guys" at the expense of the rest of GA.
Man, I don't think I've written posts this long since I started on this forum. Having so much time off is bad for me.
Gucci Pilot
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Gucci Pilot
Cons: You're joining CAP
Pros: .........
Pros: .........
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Read the CAP history stuff from CAP, it is or was in there that one of the founders sandbag bombed a factory to demonstrate how dangerous these little planes are, and to secure permission to fly little planes to look out for other bad things. GA was banned in the US during WWII. CAP got an exception and did nothing for nonCAP GA. I wouldn't call that helping GA freedom.
Post uboat threat CAP should have perished and the whole promote GA education is just one of the things they came up with so they could keep wearing uniforms.
Post uboat threat CAP should have perished and the whole promote GA education is just one of the things they came up with so they could keep wearing uniforms.
JimNtexas
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Jim - In Texas!
I have long been tempted to join CAP, but you guys aren't helping me!
I'm long retired from the Air Force now and would not want to wear anything that could could mistaken for an active Air Force uniform. Ok, maybe my leather jacket, but not my flight suit which almost still fits. Class A's? Furgitaboutit.
I could handle a certain amount of USAF style fun with regs I think.
There are several CAP squadrons in central Texas. What would be the best way figure out where they fit on the scale of 'private cosplay flying club for old geezers ' to 'dedicated volunteers performing valuable public service involving airplanes'?
I'm long retired from the Air Force now and would not want to wear anything that could could mistaken for an active Air Force uniform. Ok, maybe my leather jacket, but not my flight suit which almost still fits.
Class A's? Furgitaboutit.I could handle a certain amount of USAF style fun with regs I think.
There are several CAP squadrons in central Texas. What would be the best way figure out where they fit on the scale of 'private cosplay flying club for old geezers ' to 'dedicated volunteers performing valuable public service involving airplanes'?