properly repaired firewall damage on 182. Is it a big deal on value?

rbridges

rbridges

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rbridges
I've been following the ads for P and Q models, and IMO a good portion of them have a history of firewall damage. I guess it's inherent to their nose-heaviness relative to the 172. Anyway, is a firewall repair usually pretty dependable? or is it a nagging issue that follows the plane? Should the value of the plane be hit if the firewall was replaced?

I know it depends, but any certain things I can ask or look for?
 
I know this does not answer the question but there are those that insist a properly repaired flat tire devalues a plane by 30%. Yes, that is an exaggeration.
 
It would "depend" for me.

There are repairs and there are repairs. Did they use ANY Cherry Max rivets? How does the riveting look....nice and clean? Is it just a doubler?

If someone famous did it, like Beegles in CO, it would make me feel better.
 
rbridges said:
I've been following the ads for P and Q models, and IMO a good portion of them have a history of firewall damage. I guess it's inherent to their nose-heaviness relative to the 172. Anyway, is a firewall repair usually pretty dependable? or is it a nagging issue that follows the plane? Should the value of the plane be hit if the firewall was replaced?

I know it depends, but any certain things I can ask or look for?
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A properly executed firewall repair is utterly dependable. If the work passed muster, especially if it was more than a couple of years old, I wouldn't factor it in at all.

If you trim for landing, you can prevent most of those issues with a 182.
 
rbridges said:
I've been following the ads for P and Q models, and IMO a good portion of them have a history of firewall damage. I guess it's inherent to their nose-heaviness relative to the 172. Anyway, is a firewall repair usually pretty dependable? or is it a nagging issue that follows the plane? Should the value of the plane be hit if the firewall was replaced?

I know it depends, but any certain things I can ask or look for?
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Any PROPERLY repaired damage is a non issue, just get a good prebuy and be sure to let the AP know to look very close when it comes to the firewall.

Also run a NTSB search by any N numbers it has had and also the SN and get your FAA CD if you haven't yet, plane probably has other damage history too, no biggie if it's fixed to like new or better, just areas to look at extra hard.

Also firewall damage isn't due to nose heavy, just due to poor piloting.
 
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Significant damage history will affect the sales price. NDH commands a premium. It doesn't make the airplane better but the market rewards NDH.
 
I’ve come to the conclusion there are 5 types of damage
#1 Damage properly repaired and documented.
#2 Damage properly repaired and the documentation was “misplaced” (to cover up the history).
#3 Damage improperly repaired
#4 Damage that is ignored.
#5 Damage that has yet to be discovered and repaired.
Circle all that apply. (Be realistic on 30 to 40 year old airplane)
 
rbridges said:
I've been following the ads for P and Q models, and IMO a good portion of them have a history of firewall damage. I guess it's inherent to their nose-heaviness relative to the 172. Anyway, is a firewall repair usually pretty dependable? or is it a nagging issue that follows the plane? Should the value of the plane be hit if the firewall was replaced?

I know it depends, but any certain things I can ask or look for?
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I bet out of the entire 177 (fixed gear) fleet maybe 5% haven't had the lower firewall replaced at least once.

Best way to evaluate the airplane is eyeballs. Rivet the right size? Oddball oversized in a row? Buck tails uniform? Straight clean sheets? Does everything look like it first correctly? Is there an enormous amount of blind rivets used? All adds up to the quality of the repair right?
 
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If it is properly repaired, I would certainly use it to negotiate a better price, but in reality the airplane will function just as well as one that has not have firewall damage reported. :D Everyone gets all wrapped around the axle on damage history, but lots of airplanes have been dinged and dented over 30-40 years and many have no "known" damage history. It just isn't in the log books. I called about a 421 that had different serial numbers on each wing and the tail had been replaced without a logbook entry on the tail. Needless to say, I didn't travel to look at that one.:mad2:
 
N747JB said:
If it is properly repaired, I would certainly use it to negotiate a better price, but in reality the airplane will function just as well as one that has not have firewall damage reported. :D Everyone gets all wrapped around the axle on damage history, but lots of airplanes have been dinged and dented over 30-40 years and many have no "known" damage history. It just isn't in the log books. I called about a 421 that had different serial numbers on each wing and the tail had been replaced without a logbook entry on the tail. Needless to say, I didn't travel to look at that one.:mad2:
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I've seen interior screws that were too long chafe the webs on bulkheads where the repair was to simply drill out the chafed area, inspect the clean drilled hole for cracks and pop a blind rivet in the hole all approved on an FAA form 8100-9 or 8100-11 and declared a major repair with a 337 filed.

Huge pricing leveraging damage history there :rolleyes:

I've also seen the entire side fuselage skin from the cabin entry door to the pylon replaced on a Citation. :lol:
 
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Look at many retracts of the same vintage that have had "gear up" or "gear failure" history.

They get repaired and fly until the next time somebody damages them.
 
thanks. I guess the gist is this: should I negotiate a lower price b/c the next buyer will do the same to me? is that another "it depends" situation?
 
You have to decide what the airplane is worth to you.properly repaired damage,doesn't really affect how the airplane flys.
 
rbridges said:
thanks. I guess the gist is this: should I negotiate a lower price b/c the next buyer will do the same to me? is that another "it depends" situation?
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Does the price already reflect the repaired damage? Was it declared or did you discover it? If it was declared, you really have no expectation for the guy to bust for it, especially if it is already in the lower part of the market for model, equipment, and condition.
 
Henning said:
Does the price already reflect the repaired damage? Was it declared or did you discover it? If it was declared, you really have no expectation for the guy to bust for it, especially if it is already in the lower part of the market for model, equipment, and condition.
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No particular plane in mind. The ones I know about were listed in the ads. A few we've seen in NTSB reports (accident history, not specifically firewall damage). I'll just have to see how their price stack up against comparably equipped planes.
 
Everything you need to know about condition when purchasing a 40 year old airplane:

A ) If it has no damage history, it has corrosion from not flying.
B ) If it has no corrosion, it has damage history from flying.
C ) If it has neither, someone is lying.

:D
 
tyndall said:
Everything you need to know about condition when purchasing a 40 year old airplane:

A ) If it has no damage history, it has corrosion from not flying.
B ) If it has no corrosion, it has damage history from flying.
C ) If it has neither, someone is lying.

:D
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Or D ) It is composite.

Fiberglass doesn't corrode.
 
bnt83 said:
I’ve come to the conclusion there are 5 types of damage
#1 Damage properly repaired and documented.
#2 Damage properly repaired and the documentation was “misplaced” (to cover up the history).
#3 Damage improperly repaired
#4 Damage that is ignored.
#5 Damage that has yet to be discovered and repaired.
Circle all that apply. (Be realistic on 30 to 40 year old airplane)
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Very true!


Many airplanes, mine included had entire wings replaced with not a single entry. When I discovered my different wing, I was less than happy.
 
NoHeat said:
Or D ) It is composite.

Fiberglass doesn't corrode.
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No but it cracks all to pieces.

Our 5 year old columbia looks like crap compared to a 20 year old cessna, mooney or any aluminum airplane.


Its also had 2 windows gouged out and massive amounts of body filler used to replaced windows that crack mid flight for no reason. $8,000 window replacements on a non-pressurized aircraft is just stupid.

Composites have a long list of issues. Serious corrosion of any metal besides stainless steel and titanium in contact with the carbon fiber is one known issue.
 
To make sue the firewall is properly repaired you must open up the tunnel access behind the firewall and carefully inspect the structure. This is a real ***** to get too and it is a miserable job to replace any of the structure. I have seen more than one with a firewall repair and a bunch of cracked and broken pieces on the back side. Don
 
yakdriver said:
To make sue the firewall is properly repaired you must open up the tunnel access behind the firewall and carefully inspect the structure. This is a real ***** to get too and it is a miserable job to replace any of the structure. I have seen more than one with a firewall repair and a bunch of cracked and broken pieces on the back side. Don
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EXACTLY! There are repairs and there are repairs. I want to see "Beegles" or some other highly respected shop in the logs before any check writing.
 
bnt83 said:
I’ve come to the conclusion there are 5 types of damage
#1 Damage properly repaired and documented.
#2 Damage properly repaired and the documentation was “misplaced” (to cover up the history).
#3 Damage improperly repaired
#4 Damage that is ignored.
#5 Damage that has yet to be discovered and repaired.
Circle all that apply. (Be realistic on 30 to 40 year old airplane)
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Pretty much this.

Any 40 year old airplane that hasn't flown enough to have SOME kind of DH probably means it sat around a ton, which creates it's own problems.

Richman
 
I purchased a 182P that suffered from firewall damage that had happened 10 years earlier. It was well documented and covered during the pre-purchase inspection.

Based on the above I adjusted my offer $0.00 for firewall damage. After 12 years of ownership having zero issues with the firewall or nose wheel, if I ever sell, any offer adjusted above $0.00 because of the firewall damage will be rejected.

Kevin
 
n20junkie said:
Very true!


Many airplanes, mine included had entire wings replaced with not a single entry. When I discovered my different wing, I was less than happy.
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While wing replacement wouldn't require a 337, there should have been a log entry saying the wing was replaced.
 
Stewartb said:
Significant damage history will affect the sales price. NDH commands a premium. It doesn't make the airplane better but the market rewards NDH.
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And you fly a 180?

Best of luck trying to get a seller to drop his price because of some properly repaired damage from years ago.

The entire fleet of 180/5s has damage history, if someone tells me there's doesn't my reply is the same, you're ether naive or you don't know much about your plane and how damage history works in the field.

It's ether reported or not, but in my experience I have yet to see one that didn't have something done to it at some time, just the nature of the backcountry and working plane beast.
 
180, yes. Damage history, yes. Properly repaired, yes. Lots of years since repairs, yes. Would it command a lower price than a sister plane with equal time and equipment but without damage history? Yes. I'd put my plane against anyone's as a desirable airplane and if I made a call or two it'd sell very quickly for a fairly high price as 180s go but the fact remains that the market pays a premium for NDH.
 
Stewartb said:
180, yes. Damage history, yes. Properly repaired, yes. Lots of years since repairs, yes. Would it command a lower price than a sister plane with equal time and equipment but without damage history? Yes. I'd put my plane against anyone's as a desirable airplane and if I made a call or two it'd sell very quickly for a fairly high price as 180s go but the fact remains that the market pays a premium for NDH.
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And my 185 would go for less compared to a unicorn.

However just as the unicorn it's a creature of fiction, which doesn't exist in the realm of man.
 
James331 said:
And my 185 would go for less compared to a unicorn.

However just as the unicorn, it's a creature of fiction which doesn't exist in the realm of man.
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This guy makes a persuasive claim that unicorns are definitely the realm of men.

 
I watched a very pristine 185 taxi out a couple of days ago. I was talking with a friend at the time, a 135 single pilot operator that uses a 180, and he was familiar with the 185. Supposedly something like 1200 hours total time and NDH. His comment was that the doors fit and closed like it was new. It required no effort to close them. No leaks. No squeaks. there was not a hint of a ding or dimple in the airframe or control surfaces. It wasn't hard to recognize how perfect it was or that a guy who was willing to pay for the best would seek out such an airplane. Very nice. There are still some perfect airplanes out there.
 
tyndall said:
Everything you need to know about condition when purchasing a 40 year old airplane:

A ) If it has no damage history, it has corrosion from not flying.
B ) If it has no corrosion, it has damage history from flying.
C ) If it has neither, someone is lying.

:D
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Bull Scat. My last 170 sat from 1990 to 2013, not a speck of corrosion or damage, less than 2000 hours TT, that is why I bought it.

Your statement is typical of a tire kicker's BS.
 
James331 said:
The entire fleet of 180/5s has damage history,
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The California CHP is proof you are wrong. their C-185s had in excess of 20,000 of patrol on them. No damage ever.
 
rbridges said:
I've been following the ads for P and Q models, and IMO a good portion of them have a history of firewall damage. I guess it's inherent to their nose-heaviness relative to the 172. Anyway, is a firewall repair usually pretty dependable? or is it a nagging issue that follows the plane? Should the value of the plane be hit if the firewall was replaced?

I know it depends, but any certain things I can ask or look for?
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Who's version of "PROPERLY REPAIRED" would you like to hear?
 
I have a 182 Q model for sale. No damage history and if there is corrosion I and a couple IA's can't find it. No damage history and no corrosion planes are out there, just keep digging and they will turn up.
 
Luvrv8 said:
I have a 182 Q model for sale. No damage history and if there is corrosion I and a couple IA's can't find it. No damage history and no corrosion planes are out there, just keep digging and they will turn up.
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They certainly exist, the question is are they worth the time and expense to search for at the exclusion of perfectly good reasonably priced and properly repaired DH planes? There are other factors such as lived whole life in a nice hangar and had good maintenance over its life that I consider more important than DH. **** happens, fix it right and life goes on.
 
Henning said:
They certainly exist, the question is are they worth the time and expense to search for at the exclusion of perfectly good reasonably priced and properly repaired DH planes?
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They are not that rare.
 
Henning said:
They certainly exist, the question is are they worth the time and expense to search for at the exclusion of perfectly good reasonably priced and properly repaired DH planes? There are other factors such as lived whole life in a nice hangar and had good maintenance over its life that I consider more important than DH. **** happens, fix it right and life goes on.
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I agree. I just don't agree with the post that there are no airframes out there with out damage history or corrosion.
 
Luvrv8 said:
I agree. I just don't agree with the post that there are no airframes out there with out damage history or corrosion.
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I prefer damage history to corrosion history, but yeah, would prefer none.
 
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