Proper way to turn a Cessna 152?

I usually just lean left or right to get the 150/152 to turn. Slide your seat back to climb, slide your seat forward to decend.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Better than that , a taylorcraft when it's blowing around fifteen or more crosswind.
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In the air it's not significantly different, it's on the ground where it punishes poor technique. BTW, a Champ is by no means a difficult TW aircraft, the whole line are quite benign. You get out of a Champ and n a 185, and you're in for a surprise on landing.
 
IMO, you shouldn't think about it as "do I lead with the rudder or not."

Use enough rudder and time it to keep the nose from swinging opposite to the turn. Go up and try "dutch rolls" to get the hang of it. Getting too mechanical will just set you up for frustration.
 
I find that if you soak the interior with gasoline first, then leave a door open. Throw a lit flare into the interior from as far away as you can accurately throw. Make sure there are no witnesses.

What? Ohhhh.... Turn......

Never mind....
 
Stearman said:
IMO, you shouldn't think about it as "do I lead with the rudder or not."

Use enough rudder and time it to keep the nose from swinging opposite to the turn. Go up and try "dutch rolls" to get the hang of it. Getting too mechanical will just set you up for frustration.
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That's just it, if you want to check all of the adverse yaw, you have to lead with the rudder slightly. If you apply them at exactly the same time and rate, you will experience adverse yaw and "tail wagging".
 
Why do so many students want to challenge,their instructors knowledge on this forum?
 
Henning said:
That's just it, if you want to check all of the adverse yaw, you have to lead with the rudder slightly. If you apply them at exactly the same time and rate, you will experience adverse yaw and "tail wagging".
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I can't get behind this statement. If you apply any rudder without aileron the airplane will yaw, that's what airplanes do when the rudder is deflected. Maybe you don't call it adverse because it is in the direction of the turn but the ball will swing out of center. Aileron and rudder together at exactly the same time is the only way to keep the ball centered. The rate and pressure differs depending on airspeed.

Speaking to the prior post about Dutch Rolls,

Dutch rolls are great and I do them in every airplane I fly for the first time. However, they are a training maneuver and slightly less then normal rudder is used to roll into the turn so as to allow the adverse yaw to hold the nose on point rather than track into the turn. So in this case you can lead with aileron and then rudder to roll into a bank. As the bank gets steep you begin to reduce rudder so the adverse yaw can hold the nose up (since you aren't usinig extra elevator to turn at this point). When you reverse aileron to roll the other way adverse yaw now pulls the nose down and so you actually need to lead with opposite rudder here. The tail isn't wagging but the ball is. If you keep the bank shallow the need for early rudder transitioning isn't so pronounced but that's no fun. As a note, rudder reversals are dangerous and not protected by maneuvering speed. This must be a gentle transition from left to right rudder and not a kick!

S-turns are a true turn coordination maneuver and the heading is always changing with the ball centered.

I don't post a lot on this board but as you can tell I'm passionate about rudder. Probably because My instructor beat rudder control into me. I also built almost all of my commercial rating hours in an Aeronca Champ and spent a good bit of it practicing maneuvers.

Rudder coordination in light airplanes is no easy task and after 30 years of flying I'm still trying to get it just right.

I understand the theories behind leading with rudder and it just comes down to technique. However, if one, like me, believes the ball should always be centered (except when you don't want it centered) rudder and aileron must happen at exactly the same time and in perfect harmony. There are exceptions, for example if you enter a Chandelle to the left you might not need any left rudder as the prop precession is doing the yawning for you.

Edit: here's a theory why many pilots lead with rudder. Aileron is designed to roll the wings and nothing else. They are very effective at that and offer instant response. However very shallow banks offer almost imperceptible heading change, creating sort of a dead spot in holding a heading. By leading with rudder you get instant satisfaction and the yaw is not technically adverse. However, rudder and aileron together at the same time can and will stop adverse yaw keeping the ball centered.

Dave
 
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I don't call it adverse when it is in the direction of intended turn, though too much is 'excessive yaw'. 'Adverse' yaw is when it swings to the inside first. The ball will get a little wobble down as you start the turn, that is what everyone refers to as 'tail wagging', and it causes people in the back seat to frequently get ill if you let it continue. People are used to being tossed to the outside of a turn, their ear/eye interface is good with that. That check back swing though, that's an ear jostle they aren't used to.
 
Henning said:
I don't call it adverse when it is in the direction of intended turn, though too much is 'excessive yaw'. 'Adverse' yaw is when it swings to the inside first. The ball will get a little wobble down as you start the turn, that is what everyone refers to as 'tail wagging', and it causes people in the back seat to frequently get ill if you let it continue. People are used to being tossed to the outside of a turn, their ear/eye interface is good with that. That check back swing though, that's an ear jostle they aren't used to.
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Granted, If unfamiliar with an airplane you have to either feel your butt slide, watch the ball move, or correct wandering of the nose in order to coordinate the rudder, therefore there will be some ball wobble there. However, it shouldn't take too long to get the balance of it and keep the ball close enough for comfort so to speak.

If I understand correctly, you are saying it's better to just lead with rudder, essentially guarantee the ball will stay comfortably on the outside as you roll in to the turn. but if you accept this theory don't you need the ball to stay to the outside slightly on the roll out since your airplane is still turning until wings are level? Let's say you make a left turn. You lead with left rudder then aileron and the ball is slightly on the outside. Now as you begin the roll out, you can't lead with rudder or the ball will swing inside. I guess you just lead with aileron to keep the ball on the outside of the turn. But what if you go from a left turn to a right turn. Lead rudder on the roll in, lead aileron on the roll out until passing through wings level and then give it some extra rudder to continue keeping the ball on the outside of the turn.

Sounds more complicated than just keeping the ball centered. :)


Dave
 
This really isn't rocket science. Bank the airplane. It will be obviously fairly quickly how much rudder you need. This is a good clue for next time. Keep in mind the rate of roll will affect the rudder. I truly feel waaayyyy too much is made out of this. When I was a CFI I had to crank a 152 hard to demonstrate adverse yaw to a new student.
 
Sgu2-22 said:
Granted, If unfamiliar with an airplane you have to either feel your butt slide, watch the ball move, or correct wandering of the nose in order to coordinate the rudder, therefore there will be some ball wobble there. However, it shouldn't take too long to get the balance of it and keep the ball close enough for comfort so to speak.

If I understand correctly, you are saying it's better to just lead with rudder, essentially guarantee the ball will stay comfortably on the outside as you roll in to the turn. but if you accept this theory don't you need the ball to stay to the outside slightly on the roll out since your airplane is still turning until wings are level? Let's say you make a left turn. You lead with left rudder then aileron and the ball is slightly on the outside. Now as you begin the roll out, you can't lead with rudder or the ball will swing inside. I guess you just lead with aileron to keep the ball on the outside of the turn. But what if you go from a left turn to a right turn. Lead rudder on the roll in, lead aileron on the roll out until passing through wings level and then give it some extra rudder to continue keeping the ball on the outside of the turn.

Sounds more complicated than just keeping the ball centered. :)


Dave
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As I said before, it's more a matter of turning the plane with the rudder, and using the ailerons to stay coordinated. To roll out of a left turn I will step on the right rudder and chase my ass with the ailerons. I'll transfer the ball from one side of the cage to the other. As long as I lead the sequence with the rudder, the sideways g component will always head outside the leading vector, even within the transition through center. As long as the tail vector swing is outside the nose vector swing, the resultant force will be to the outside of the drection of visual swing.

You are correct as to my intention to always provide outward vector force by initiating with it, thereby preventing any inward. A perfectly coordinated turn initiation, especially in turbulence, is nearly impossible to achieve, so I preload just a touch of skid.
 
Henning said:
As I said before, it's more a matter of turning the plane with the rudder, and using the ailerons to stay coordinated. To roll out of a left turn I will step on the right rudder and chase my ass with the ailerons. I'll transfer the ball from one side of the cage to the other. As long as I lead the sequence with the rudder, the sideways g component will always head outside the leading vector, even within the transition through center. As long as the tail vector swing is outside the nose vector swing, the resultant force will be to the outside of the drection of visual swing.

You are correct as to my intention to always provide outward vector force by initiating with it, thereby preventing any inward. A perfectly coordinated turn initiation, especially in turbulence, is nearly impossible to achieve, so I preload just a touch of skid.
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One thing we definitely agree on is that aileron alone is uncomfortable.

Dave
 
Sgu2-22 said:
One thing we definitely agree on is that aileron alone is uncomfortable.

Dave
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You don't feel it much in the pilot seat because typically you're sitting next the the center of rotation. When you get people in the back seats of an A-36 or similar is where it really hits people.
 
FAA deems "simultaneous" application appropriate.

And it is.

To argue otherwise is to argue for the sake of arguing. :mad2:

Sgu2-22 said:
Sounds more complicated than just keeping the ball centered. :)
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Of course it is. Someone just wants to appear smart simply by being contrarian.

It's not working.
 
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There's an app for that.

It's called a turn coordinator.

If you do it right, the ball should never leave center. Try your instructors way and watch the ball then try your way. But it won't matter because instructors are ego maniacs who never admit fault.
 
txflyer said:
There's an app for that.

It's called a turn coordinator.

If you do it right, the ball should never leave center. Try your instructors way and watch the ball then try your way. But it won't matter because instructors are ego maniacs who never admit fault.
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Sheesh.... We're talking a second or so as the ball is moving. In theory yes. In reality not so much.
 
You can do what you want, it's not something that's going to cause a crash, but it also happens to be what flying a tailwheel plane teaches you that, "makes you a better pilot", to be proactive on the rudder pedals rather than reactive. Rudder is always the first thing going in when you need the tail to move. At low speed landing a TD it's critical just like when demonstrating slow flight near the stall break. At speed and altitude failure just makes people queezy.
 
Henning said:
You don't feel it much in the pilot seat because typically you're sitting next the the center of rotation. When you get people in the back seats of an A-36 or similar is where it really hits people.
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This is why a lot of pilots don't really get the "seat of the pants" thing because it came from learning to fly in a Jenny or a Stearman or a J3 where you were in the back seat and all of these sensations were much more pronounced. And it's not just yaw, from the back seat of a J3 pitch changes are very apparent.
 
Silvaire said:
This is why a lot of pilots don't really get the "seat of the pants" thing because it came from learning to fly in a Jenny or a Stearman or a J3 where you were in the back seat and all of these sensations were much more pronounced. And it's not just yaw, from the back seat of a J3 pitch changes are very apparent.
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"Seat of the pants" is a myth. It's "seat of the eyes". A pilot can feel all he wants.. until he tries it with his eyes closed.
 
Kritchlow said:
"Seat of the pants" is a myth. It's "seat of the eyes". A pilot can feel all he wants.. until he tries it with his eyes closed.
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:confused: Put a blindfold on me and I'll still roll in and out of bank in a coordinated manner. Closing your eyes is a great way to notice very slight uncoordinated states. Not sure what this seat of the eyes is all about unless you teach students to worship the skid ball- which is unreliable in lots of airplanes while the airplane is in the process of rolling. Better to learn seat of the pants coordination so that you can keep your eyeballs outside where they belong.
 
RoscoeT said:
:confused: Put a blindfold on me and I'll still roll in and out of bank in a coordinated manner. Closing your eyes is a great way to notice very slight uncoordinated states. Not sure what this seat of the eyes is all about unless you teach students to worship the skid ball- which is unreliable in lots of airplanes while the airplane is in the process of rolling. Better to learn seat of the pants coordination so that you can keep your eyeballs outside where they belong.
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With your eyes closed you'll be able to keep it coordinated alright, but you'll likely end up somewhere less desirable than straight and level.
 
RoscoeT said:
:confused: Put a blindfold on me and I'll still roll in and out of bank in a coordinated manner. Closing your eyes is a great way to notice very slight uncoordinated states. Not sure what this seat of the eyes is all about unless you teach students to worship the skid ball- which is unreliable in lots of airplanes while the airplane is in the process of rolling. Better to learn seat of the pants coordination so that you can keep your eyeballs outside where they belong.
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Perhaps you are the exception. Most people when trying to roll into a turn, then roll out while blindfolded, will end up in a major unusual attitude. Perhaps upsidedown. In all honesty, I suppose it's possible to execute a coordinated unusual attitude.
 
I thought we were talking about feeling yaw and flying coordinated. I guess I missed something.
 
RoscoeT said:
I thought we were talking about feeling yaw and flying coordinated. I guess I missed something.
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It is... But it was you that said you could do it with a blindfold. Maybe you can. I know I can't.
 
Still don't get your point. Nobody said blind folks can now fly airplanes. I said you can maintain coordination by what you feel in your seat alone. I guess that's controversial stuff. Unless you're worshipping the error prone skid ball, what do your eyes have to do with using sufficient rudder for a given amount of aileron in order to stay coordinated as you roll?
 
RoscoeT said:
Still don't get your point. Nobody said blind folks can now fly airplanes. I said you can maintain coordination by what you feel in your seat alone. I guess that's controversial stuff. Unless you're worshipping the error prone skid ball, what do your eyes have to do with using sufficient rudder for a given amount of aileron in order to stay coordinated as you roll?
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Seat of the pants isn't only coordination, but since you asked..
I used to teach students to look outside. For demo I would turn the 152 relatively abruptly without rudder, causing an uncoordinated turn. This was easy to see visually as the nose would go opposite the turn. Once they got used to that it became more noticible during the more subtle turns. All visually.
 
Kritchlow said:
Seat of the pants isn't only coordination, but since you asked..
I used to teach students to look outside. For demo I would turn the 152 relatively abruptly without rudder, causing an uncoordinated turn. This was easy to see visually as the nose would go opposite the turn. Once they got used to that it became more noticible during the more subtle turns. All visually.
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I knew where you were going with that. The seat is still much more precise. And what about during the turn, or on climb out, or in cruise flight? Coordination is still purely visual? You said 'seat of the pants' is a myth. That is utter horse shizzle. Or maybe you're just trolling.
 
RoscoeT said:
I thought we were talking about feeling yaw and flying coordinated. I guess I missed something.
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I can often sense uncoordinated flight.

IF I'm paying attention.

Humans tend to be terrible at multitasking. In my experience if I'm focused on something else, my butt fails me, so to speak.

I'm generally a decent "stick", yet it wasn't until watching a video of a turn to final that I noticed this:

7425385928_e03e845087_o.jpg


Must have been focused on the trees I had to clear at 57GA, or who knows what.

It happens.
 
Kritchlow said:
"Seat of the pants" is a myth. It's "seat of the eyes". A pilot can feel all he wants.. until he tries it with his eyes closed.
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Exactly, it's the relationship between what the eye sees and the ear and 'seat of the pants feel. But his point stands regardless as the effect is more pronounced when in the back.
 
Wow! Sure am glad this was a simple question about how to turn a 152 and not something complicated!

Also thought the question was well and truly answered several times in the first 8-10 posts. So the following 60+ posts are all chest-thumping "experts" drilling down into trivia, moot points and specific examples that run counter to the general rules. Pretty typical, I'd say.

I generally turn with aileron and rudder. Can't really say which is first, I haven't paid much attention to that since about my second lesson . . . Any more than I can say if I start letting the clutch out before or after I start pressing the gas pedal. I just work the controls to get the desired response.
 
The proper way to turn a C-152 is left unless markings indicate right. Why did this take 76 responses????
 
Hank S said:
Wow! Sure am glad this was a simple question about how to turn a 152 and not something complicated!

Also thought the question was well and truly answered several times in the first 8-10 posts. So the following 60+ posts are all chest-thumping "experts" drilling down into trivia, moot points and specific examples that run counter to the general rules. Pretty typical, I'd say.

I generally turn with aileron and rudder. Can't really say which is first, I haven't paid much attention to that since about my second lesson . . . Any more than I can say if I start letting the clutch out before or after I start pressing the gas pedal. I just work the controls to get the desired response.
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Hey Hank, I get your point but what is the point of a Forum then? Maybe I miss the point but to me it's like back in the day when instructors and students were fogged in at the airport. A student asked a question and six different answers came out. Nothing wrong with this. Discussion ensued and if nothing else you were forced to really think about flying and aerodynamics. Some people would even get ****ed but no names were called and everyone respected each other.

By the way, I can talk for hours about how to drive a manual transmission if you want to start a thread. :)

Dave
 
Sgu2-22 said:
Hey Hank, I get your point but what is the point of a Forum then? Maybe I miss the point but to me it's like back in the day when instructors and students were fogged in at the airport. A student asked a question and six different answers came out. Nothing wrong with this. Discussion ensued and if nothing else you were forced to really think about flying and aerodynamics. Some people would even get ****ed but no names were called and everyone respected each other.

By the way, I can talk for hours about how to drive a manual transmission if you want to start a thread. :)

Dave
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Someone should bold and pin this post on every section of this forum.
 
So I guess the conclusion then is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.


Yeah... I know.


:goofy:
 
RoscoeT said:
I knew where you were going with that. The seat is still much more precise. And what about during the turn, or on climb out, or in cruise flight? Coordination is still purely visual? You said 'seat of the pants' is a myth. That is utter horse shizzle. Or maybe you're just trolling.
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Yeah, you caught me trolling.. :rolleyes:

I'm speaking from many years of teaching and many hours of flying. Seat of the pants with eyes closed is a myth. That's the way we used to put people in unusual attitudes. Now, as Henning suggested, when COUPLED with the eyes it can be a very powerful skill.
 
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