Proper Learning Environment?

[Mtns2Skies]

Now this is just out of curiosity but do you think that it would be better to learn to fly at a towered or non-towered airport?

Also what does it mean if a CFI is off the hook?

 

[TMetzinger]

There are tradeoffs, and you need to learn to operate at both towered and non-towered airports.

Except in the DC ADIZ (where a tower can be a benefit), you can generally get into and out of the non-towered fields faster than you can with a tower - this can translate into less time required to achieve proficiency, which means less $$$. However, my opinion is that the savings are not significant.

With a towered airport, you'll be comfy on the radios by the time you solo. You'll also be used to a guy on the radio telling you what you need to do - and that will be MISSING when you visit a non-towered field, and have to self-sort yourself into the flow of traffic, and deal with various yahoos who don't play well with others.

A CFI being "off the hook" means that he doesn't have any liability for your actions as a student. Short of you killing him and stealing a plane, there's no way that definitively happens. Generally, the better job a CFI does of teaching you and DOCUMENTING the instruction, the better prepared he is to answer to the FAA or the courts for your actions as a student.

 

[mantakos]

I'd say that a busy airport, towered or non-towered, is a less efficient place to learn. Then again, a quiet airport doesn't teach you much about flying at a busy airport.

"Off the hook" is also versatile slang with a variety of nuanced meanings that roughly equate to "highly complimentary adjective".
-harry

 

[jesse]

I learned to fly at a towered airport and don't regret it. I'm very comfortable on the radio in any airspace. That said--this is an age old question--and it does not matter at all.

It is *far more important* to find a good CFI.

 

[poadeleted20]

You need both towered and nontowered training. Which you choose doesn't matter much as long as you get enough of each in the process. Getting quality training is far more important than the primary environment.

 

[wabower]

I think your total paid-for time will be much less at a non-towered airport. By definition, they are less-busy than others, and the ratio of hobbs time to actual training obtained is usually significantly higher. Non-towered in many cases also means "closer to the practice area".

Now this is just out of curiosity but do you think that it would be better to learn to fly at a towered or non-towered airport?

Also what does it mean if a CFI is off the hook?

 

[Ted]

This is another questoin that I don't think has a correct answer so much as we've all done it certain ways and like it th eways we've done it.

I learned at a towered airport that is not very busy. The advantage here is that I got comfortable on the radios and having people telling me what to do. That, combined with my heavy use of flight following, has been extremely helpful for things like flying into NY Bravo and your IR training. That said, I would've been fine without it. I know that it took me a while to get used to uncontrolled fields since we didn't spend a lot of time at them. By now I'm fine with them.

One thing I notice is people who learn at uncontrolled fields do tend to be more wordy on the radio. This gets really, really annoying when talking to center/approach/whatever and they tell their life story on the radio, usually slowly. But, those are people who, to me, probably never got proper training at a controlled field or whatnot.

A good CFI is most important, as has been said. The rest will come as it comes. Considering how much time you have until solo flight, much less your ratings, Austin, you should have plenty of time to get good at the radios. Just remember you don't need to tell your life story, just say what needs to get said and get off the radio so someone else can talk.

 

[TMetzinger]

I think your total paid-for time will be much less at a non-towered airport. By definition, they are less-busy than others, and the ratio of hobbs time to actual training obtained is usually significantly higher. Non-towered in many cases also means "closer to the practice area".

Frederick Maryland is the second busiest airport in the state with no tower (so far), and it's far ahead of other towered airports. Towers don't always go to busier airports.

If you get the experience you should have to be proficient at towered and untowered fields, I don't think your cost will vary significantly.

 

[TMetzinger]

One thing I notice is people who learn at uncontrolled fields do tend to be more wordy on the radio. This gets really, really annoying when talking to center/approach/whatever and they tell their life story on the radio, usually slowly. But, those are people who, to me, probably never got proper training at a controlled field or whatnot.

I usually wait until they finish their long announcement on the radio, then I say:

"and your dog's name is?"

 

[wabower]

I usually wait until they finish their long announcement on the radio, then I say:

"and your dog's name is?"

" . . .Tige, he lives in there too."

or "and what did you have for breakfast this morning?"

 

[dsffdssdf]

"Off the hook" is also versatile slang with a variety of nuanced meanings that roughly equate to "highly complimentary adjective".
-harry

you're thinking of "off da hook"

As far as whats better, it depends on where you want to do most of your flying out of. I did my training out of a non-towered airport. When it got time to leave that airport and start flying out of a towered airport, I was very unprepared. I did a handful of flights to towered airports during training, but not nearly enough to be truly comfortable. After a hundred hours or so of flying out of a towered airport, I was just as comfortable with talking to tower as I was talking to CTAF.

On the other hand, I know of other pilots who have done their training at ATP or some place like that, where it was a school policy to not visit anything without a tower. Those guys obviously are very uncomfortable flying out of uncontrolled fields.

A good trade off is to do your training at a location where there is a towered airport as well as uncontrolled airports around and go to both kinds regularly.

I taught all of my students out of a controlled airport which was very busy. In order to get touch and go's in, we had to visit the 3 nearby uncontrolled fields regularly. As a result, they were all way better radio talkers as private pilots than I was right after receiving my CFI.

You're more likely to visit an uncontrolled airport being based at a towered airport, than you are likely to visit a towered airport being based at a non-towered airport. So I guess being based at a towered airport is best.

 

[tfmann]

Now this is just out of curiosity but do you think that it would be better to learn to fly at a towered or non-towered airport?

This is a question that is getting asked a lot down under after we have just had the tragedy of a student pilot on first solo being killed in a mid air collision at one of Australias busiest GA airports. ( the other aircraft also with student pilot and instructor mircaculously made it back with major damage to the tailplane)

My answer to this is to ask the question , where do you take your kids to first learn to drive a car? Down town New York or a quiet country road?
There is a lot to learn in flying an aeroplane , it just doesnt make sense to me to complicate that learning process wtih the stress of operating in a busy airport.

Personally (PPL with 200 hrs+) I learned at a non towered airport, but I still dont fly into towered ariports, I have no need to. In Australia you can have a PPL without controlled airspace endoresement, which is barely a restriction at all, as you can fly virtually anywhere in the country bar a few major airports in the capital cities. And since there are smaller non towered airporst outside the big cites and outside controlled airspace, it just isnt a big deal.
Terry

 

[gismo]

There are tradeoffs, and you need to learn to operate at both towered and non-towered airports.

Except in the DC ADIZ (where a tower can be a benefit), you can generally get into and out of the non-towered fields faster than you can with a tower - this can translate into less time required to achieve proficiency, which means less $$$. However, my opinion is that the savings are not significant.

I agree that that difference isn't necessarily significant, but it's also common (but not guaranteed) that rental and CFI rates are lower at uncontrolled fields. And some airports of either variety are going to be a lot busier than others and that can mean significantly less efficient pattern work.

With a towered airport, you'll be comfy on the radios by the time you solo. You'll also be used to a guy on the radio telling you what you need to do - and that will be MISSING when you visit a non-towered field, and have to self-sort yourself into the flow of traffic, and deal with various yahoos who don't play well with others.

Yep. Many low time pilots I know who learned to fly at towered fields are uncomfortable with the alternative and vice versa. 12 of one, a dozen of the other.

A CFI being "off the hook" means that he doesn't have any liability for your actions as a student. Short of you killing him and stealing a plane, there's no way that definitively happens. Generally, the better job a CFI does of teaching you and DOCUMENTING the instruction, the better prepared he is to answer to the FAA or the courts for your actions as a student.

Seems that the CFI in this case potentially loaded himself with two aspects of liablilty. One was inadequate training (documentation could definitely prove otherwise) and the other was the significant and unnecessary distraction at a critical time of yelling at the student over the radio (according to the story).

 

[gismo]

My answer to this is to ask the question , where do you take your kids to first learn to drive a car? Down town New York or a quiet country road?
There is a lot to learn in flying an aeroplane , it just doesnt make sense to me to complicate that learning process wtih the stress of operating in a busy airport.

If by "busy airport" you mean something like a major airline hub I agree, but in the US there are plenty of towered airports that are suitable for primary training. And if the car was equipped with complete dual controls I don't think I'd have a problem starting a new driver in most areas of a big city, New York City being a possible exception.

 

[dmccormack]

My answer to this is to ask the question , where do you take your kids to first learn to drive a car? Down town New York or a quiet country road?

I learned to drive in Northeast NJ (Day trips to Manhattan were normal in a beat up 72 T-bird at 17, though minimum driving age in "the city" was 19).

Route 22, Garden State Parkway, 1 & 9 -- all conspired to quickly make you or break you as a driver.

I learned to fly at a towered field. After meeting too many pilots who won't go near Class B because "You have to talk to ATC," I think it's best to get them started early.

So while my instruction is based at an uncontrolled field, very soon we're flying the 15 minutes to the local Class D.

 

[Ted]

I usually wait until they finish their long announcement on the radio, then I say:

"and your dog's name is?"

Ooh, I like that idea!

 

[nddons]

you're thinking of "off da hook"

As far as whats better, it depends on where you want to do most of your flying out of. I did my training out of a non-towered airport. When it got time to leave that airport and start flying out of a towered airport, I was very unprepared. I did a handful of flights to towered airports during training, but not nearly enough to be truly comfortable. After a hundred hours or so of flying out of a towered airport, I was just as comfortable with talking to tower as I was talking to CTAF.

On the other hand, I know of other pilots who have done their training at ATP or some place like that, where it was a school policy to not visit anything without a tower. Those guys obviously are very uncomfortable flying out of uncontrolled fields.

A good trade off is to do your training at a location where there is a towered airport as well as uncontrolled airports around and go to both kinds regularly.

I taught all of my students out of a controlled airport which was very busy. In order to get touch and go's in, we had to visit the 3 nearby uncontrolled fields regularly. As a result, they were all way better radio talkers as private pilots than I was right after receiving my CFI.

You're more likely to visit an uncontrolled airport being based at a towered airport, than you are likely to visit a towered airport being based at a non-towered airport. So I guess being based at a towered airport is best.

First, do you go by "ghhftyd43sd hfhc" or by "dsffdssdf"?

I learned at KEQY, an uncontrolled airport under Charlotte, NC's class B outer ring. A nearby Class D airport was KJQF. I would have to say that while I "qualified" to deal with Class D, and did solo XCs to a Class C airport with flight following from Charlotte approach, I will tell you that I felt very unprepared to actually deal with ATC, and found opportunities to avoid it whenever possible. And I got my license at age 45!

After moving back to the Midwest, I based myself at a Class D airport, near a class C, and I've become much more proficient and comfortable speaking with tower and ATC. However, I feel I was a little hamstrung because of my training due to mic-fright. I also used Comm1 which helped a little.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Towered.

You can get pretty good at non-towered comms in pretty short order. Getting comfortable with all the weird things that various towers will throw at you takes a LOT longer than the three takeoffs and landings at a towered field that are required to get your Private.

You should, however, make sure to get some time at uncontrolled fields as well. If there's a second field nearby that's uncontrolled, get your instructor to take you there, and also to sign you off to solo there.

Personally, I trained at a Class C (tower + TRACON) field, and I feel comfortable going to any field I want to. I also got my private in 42.6 hours, so I don't think it caused me to have to spend too much extra time flying out to the practice area.

 

[bobmrg]

I recommend learning at a towered airport; you get into the communications thing fairly quickly, and you need to because to use your certificate at all you should be able to fly comfortably into any class of airspace. During your training, your instructor should take you to a number of uncontrolled airports, however.

I began instructing at a small rural airport, and I took my students to nearby towered airports as part of the syllabus (and Part 61). These "visits" were often seen as something foreign, to be avoided in real life. When I moved to a tower controlled field in Seattle I told all of my old students to come down to the big city at any time to have a cup of coffee and tell tall tales. A very small percentage took me up on it, preferring to stay close to the small town airport. My "big city" students, on the other hand, relished visiting little out-of-the way places and knew how to operate at both controlled and uncontrolled airports.

There are many, many facets to this decision, however. Your top priority to should be to find an instructor with whom you "click." Cost plays a part, as does having to drive past one kind of airport to get to the other kind for a lesson. No easy answer, but now you know which way I lean.

Bob Gardner

 

[AdamZ]

I learned at a towered field. personally I don't think it matters where you train as long as its a good school or CFI.

 

[nddons]

I recommend learning at a towered airport; you get into the communications thing fairly quickly, and you need to because to use your certificate at all you should be able to fly comfortably into any class of airspace. During your training, your instructor should take you to a number of uncontrolled airports, however.

I began instructing at a small rural airport, and I took my students to nearby towered airports as part of the syllabus (and Part 61). These "visits" were often seen as something foreign, to be avoided in real life. When I moved to a tower controlled field in Seattle I told all of my old students to come down to the big city at any time to have a cup of coffee and tell tall tales. A very small percentage took me up on it, preferring to stay close to the small town airport. My "big city" students, on the other hand, relished visiting little out-of-the way places and knew how to operate at both controlled and uncontrolled airports.

There are many, many facets to this decision, however. Your top priority to should be to find an instructor with whom you "click." Cost plays a part, as does having to drive past one kind of airport to get to the other kind for a lesson. No easy answer, but now you know which way I lean.

Bob Gardner

Bob, I agree with you, as I explained in my situation above. Only after 3 years from getting my PPL (and in the middle of working on my IR) am I getting comfortable with Center, Approach, etc.

 

[ron22]

I learned at a towered field. With my first instructor we would fly to the nearest airport to do landings. This just happened to be a grass field. So I learned to handle the radio at the tower airport and learned to land on grass at the same time.
The one thing that did seem weird to me at the time was we would practice standard patterns at the no towered field then would do anything but a standard pattern at the towered field.
At the non towered field we would have to watch for traffic not everyone there used the radio. At the towered field ATC would call out the traffic for us.
I really don’t think it matters were you learn. If you learn at a towered field you will be more us to the radios and ATC. If you learn at a non towered field you will rely less on the radios and look out the window for other traffic.

 

[poadeleted20]

Since Tower is not responsible for separation of VFR aircraft in flight, I hope y'all are still looking out for traffic at towered airports, too.

 

[vontresc]

The thing that I find funny from talking to other pilots is if they learned at a non towered airport, they tend to not want to talk to atc if thay can avoid it, and vice versa.

I got my private, and IFR at Oshkosh, and now fly out of Madison. I personally have no issued with talking to atc, whereas my best friend who learned at a little field just north of the WI/IL state line (Westosha 5K6) avoids class Charlie if he can. I do also have to say that learning at a controlled field made me uncomfortable at uncontrolled fields for a long time. I guess it really depends on where you learn, and from whom.

Long story short, I'd pick the closest airport you can afford to fly from, and that had a good CFI. I wouldn't worry about towered vs non-towered.

 

[ron22]

Since Tower is not responsible for separation of VFR aircraft in flight, I hope y'all are still looking out for traffic at towered airports, too.

Yes I do. I have never had a plane cut me off in the pattern at a towered field. Sad to say I can not say the same about at a non towered field.

 

[Ted]

The thing that I find funny from talking to other pilots is if they learned at a non towered airport, they tend to not want to talk to atc if thay can avoid it, and vice versa.

I've noticed this as well. I always talk to ATC, I know other pilots who never talk to ATC. The dividing line seems to be whether or not you learned at a towered field.

But then when I go to uncontrolled fields I've only recently gotten a bit more comfortable with flying into and out of them. It probably helps that, since my PPL, a lot of my destinations have been uncontrolled fields.

Either way, though, any deficiencies can be overcome.

 

[dmccormack]

I've noticed this as well. I always talk to ATC, I know other pilots who never talk to ATC. The dividing line seems to be whether or not you learned at a towered field.

Agreed, though it seems somewhat self-selecting: In the Lancaster area people who wanted to learn to fly but had mic-fright tended to go to Smoketown. Those with airline aspirations went to Lancaster.

Now that Aero-Tech owns both FBOs, it would be interesting to see if there is still a choice!

 

[Henning]

This is a question that is getting asked a lot down under after we have just had the tragedy of a student pilot on first solo being killed in a mid air collision at one of Australias busiest GA airports. ( the other aircraft also with student pilot and instructor mircaculously made it back with major damage to the tailplane)

My answer to this is to ask the question , where do you take your kids to first learn to drive a car? Down town New York or a quiet country road?
There is a lot to learn in flying an aeroplane , it just doesnt make sense to me to complicate that learning process wtih the stress of operating in a busy airport.

Personally (PPL with 200 hrs+) I learned at a non towered airport, but I still dont fly into towered ariports, I have no need to. In Australia you can have a PPL without controlled airspace endoresement, which is barely a restriction at all, as you can fly virtually anywhere in the country bar a few major airports in the capital cities. And since there are smaller non towered airporst outside the big cites and outside controlled airspace, it just isnt a big deal.
Terry

That can work for you in Aus, you have less than a 1/10th of the population and as you say, very little controlled airspace (though it wouldn't have worked out for me since I flew out of Moorabin a lot) and not that many people use private aviation for utility around the capitol cities.

Over here, it doesn't work out so well to say "Avoid controlled airspace" we have a lot of it, and where you need to go may very well have a tower. We have a lot of towered airports here. I learned at a pretty busy mixed use towered airport with 10 runways in some of the busiest most complex airspace in the US (Southern California, Long Beach airport KLGB), and I'd hazard to say that at any given time there are more flights operating in SoCal than all of Australia, and you just can't avoid controlled airspace.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have never had a plane cut me off in the pattern at a towered field.

Two types of pilots -- those who've had a near-midair in tower-controlled airspace, and those who will.

Except maybe for the deaf pilots who are prohibited from tower-controlled airspace.

 

[rottydaddy]

Even though the school I dealt with left me with a bit of a bad taste in my mouth, environment-wise i think i got lucky, because they started at a towered field, opened a satellite school at a small uncontrolled field, then closed up shop there before I finished my training.
So I learned the basics at TEB (extremely busy NYC-area Class D under the Class Bravo)... delays, pressure, and all... we used to go over to nearby MMU (Class D)to do touch-n-gos, and my first dual XC was right thru CDW and MMU's Class D's to Allentown (Class C)... quite a mission for a newbie.

Just when my head was about to explode from all that I opted to go to Lincoln Park, where I got a breather from the fancy stuff and learned about the "aviator" stuff: treeline turbulence, NORDOs, pilots who have no business flying yet think they are the world's Greatest Pilot, hangar BS sessions, short runways, and taxiing in tight quarters. I soloed there, then soon after wound up back at TEB, where I staged my solo XCs from and also launched for my PP checkride. During that same period I probably split my destinations evenly between the non-towered fields and the Class Cs and Ds...I became quite comfortable in both worlds (as comfortable as a newbie can be, that is).

That's not easy to do on purpose unless you want to change schools mid-stream, but a good mix of all forseeable flight, ground op, and comm environments is the best way to go.

Pilots who earned their wings entirely under the watchful eyes of ATC, on huge runways with working toilets nearby are often terrified at the prospect of entering the fray at some little grass strip in the boonies somewhere... and of course, the guys who had grass stains on them after their PP checkride are often terrified of flying into a controlled airspace or trying to find their way around a big airport.
It's all a matter of exposure and perspective, so a mixture of both worlds will keep you limbered-up for flying anywhere.

As far as instructors go:I wound up going thru 5 CFIs on my way to the checkride (high turnover at that school for *cough* some reason), and it annoyed me at the time, but looking back... I was very lucky. They all had their own individual style and point of view, which greatly enhanced the syllabus. A couple were born instructors, some were drooling to get into airliners, and one- my favorite by the end- was an aspiring missionary bush pilot as well as an A&P.

And oh, yeah, there was one who was "off da hook"... hard to say what niche he fit into, but he was a very good instructor and tons of fun to fly with.

I wasted a little time and money with the inevitable review that comes with a change in instructors, but I managed to get that PP on a very thin blue-collar budget, and the varied experience prepared me well for post-checkride flying.

 

[gprellwitz]

this is an age old question--and it does not matter at all.

It is *far more important* to find a good CFI.

You need both towered and nontowered training. Which you choose doesn't matter much as long as you get enough of each in the process. Getting quality training is far more important than the primary environment.

I recommend learning at a towered airport; you get into the communications thing fairly quickly, and you need to because to use your certificate at all you should be able to fly comfortably into any class of airspace. During your training, your instructor should take you to a number of uncontrolled airports, however.

The thing that I find funny from talking to other pilots is if they learned at a non towered airport, they tend to not want to talk to atc if thay can avoid it, and vice versa.

Long story short, I'd pick the closest airport you can afford to fly from, and that had a good CFI. I wouldn't worry about towered vs non-towered.

I agree that finding a good instructor is one of the most important things. And a good instructor should make sure that, no matter which type of airport you're training in, you get a good dose of other airport types in there. That's a lot more than three or four trips. Of course, this is all dependent on having a variety of airports nearby, but if that weren't the case you wouldn't have the question to begin with, would you?

 

[timwinters]

I've noticed this as well. I always talk to ATC, I know other pilots who never talk to ATC. The dividing line seems to be whether or not you learned at a towered field.

I would tend to relate this dividing line to number of hours flown per year, not where one learns.

As others have said, first priority is the CFI.

But, given equal quality CFI's I'd definitely recommend a towered airport. Not necessarily a busy towered airport but a towered airport. There are many airports around this area that have only slightly more or no more traffic than the non-towered airport that I learned at. Having a tower doesn't necessarily mean an airport is busy. At least not around here.

A good example of this is the numerous airports in NW Ar that have towers and only have about 150 operations per day.

IMO, the most important thing you can do to improve your communication skills is to use flight following on every non-local flight you take. This way you'll be used to talking with ATC when you get your instrument ticket.

By the way...I learned at a non-towered airport but frequented towered (D & C) fields during training.

 

[TMetzinger]

IMO, the most important thing you can do to improve your communication skills is to use flight following on every non-local flight you take. This way you'll be used to talking with ATC when you get your instrument ticket.

Not only that but you'll get faster SAR response if you're talking to ATC, no matter what sort of ELT you have

 

[timwinters]

Not only that but you'll get faster SAR respons if you're talking to ATC, no matter what sort of ELT you have

Been there, done that!

( seriously )

 

[Maxmosbey]

Not only should you learn to fly out of an uncontrolled airport, you should learn to fly out of an uncontrolled airport with a grass strip. Just my opinion here. I'm just trying to help out.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Not only should you learn to fly out of an uncontrolled airport, you should learn to fly out of an uncontrolled airport with a grass strip. Just my opinion here. I'm just trying to help out.

You forgot to mention that it's a lot easier to learn in a taildragger than to have to transition to one later on...

 

[Maxmosbey]

You forgot to mention that it's a lot easier to learn in a taildragger than to have to transition to one later on...

That is a very good point.

 

[gismo]

Yes I do. I have never had a plane cut me off in the pattern at a towered field.

Fly at controlled fields long enough and you will. Sometimes due to an ATC screwup and sometimes it's a pilot not following ATC instructions. I've had planes line up for the runway I've been cleared to land on when they were supposed to be landing on the parallel a few hundred feet to the right. I've been cleared to land on the other end of a runway that had a plane that was also cleared to land (at night no less). I've heard ATC instruct another plane to enter downwind behind me only to find them enterring on a base leg in front of me but a couple hundred feet below. Midairs do occur at towered airports.

 

[timwinters]

Not only should you learn to fly out of an uncontrolled airport, you should learn to fly out of an uncontrolled airport with a grass strip. Just my opinion here. I'm just trying to help out.

Better yet have your instructor give you about 2 hours of instruction doing pattern work and take-offs and landings at Gaston's during your primary training...mine did.

And I had to buy lunch!

Both times!!

That would click off a few rounds on the Hobbs for some of you!

 

[Ted]

Agreed, though it seems somewhat self-selecting: In the Lancaster area people who wanted to learn to fly but had mic-fright tended to go to Smoketown. Those with airline aspirations went to Lancaster.

That's a good point, and one I hadn't considered. There are probably some people who are more timid and wouldn't be good on the radios regardless.

I believe what I'm thinking more of would be people who don't seem timid, but don't understand good radio etiquette. The sort of people I think of who have mic-fright just don't want to talk at all. The people I'm more thinking of who I hear on the radios and believe they learned at an uncontrolled field are the ones who will tell their life stories to the controller, preventing the rest of us from saying anything.

When I get on, it's short and sweet. After the controller has acknowledged me, it's [who they are] [who I am] [where I am (if radar contact not established or not applicable)] [what my request is].

When they're telling me something, it's the appropriate readback to acknowledge what they told me. Spoken clearly, but not slowly. Short, sweet, to the point.