Propeller Paint

[Tom-D]

(3) Propeller major alterations. The following alterations of a propeller when not authorized in the propeller specifications issued by the FAA are propeller major alterations:

(i) Changes in blade design.

(ii) Changes in hub design.

(iii) Changes in the governor or control design.

(iv) Installation of a propeller governor or feathering system.

(v) Installation of propeller de-icing system.

(vi) Installation of parts not approved for the propeller.

Just for Glen. The rest of ya probably looked it up already.

 

[Tom-D]

JAWS, I think he's showing that he either doesnt have access to current FAR's or doesnt know how to reference them properly.

Every one has access to FAA.gov.

 

[Tom-D]

1. NOTE: The Model 1L100 Series Maintenance and Overhaul manual may be used only by McCauley approved propeller repair stations.
   From your reference :

1. General

McCAULEY PROPELLER SYSTEMS

OWNER/OPERATOR

INFORMATION MANUAL

INTRODUCTION

1. This Owner/Operator Manual provides familiarization and line maintenance instructions for McCauley fixed pitch composite propellers.
   
   
2. All maintenance and service procedures described and authorized in this manual must be done only by qualified personnel.
   
   
3. Overhaul or any repair procedure that involves the scarf repair, stripping, or resurfacing of the propeller must be done only by a McCauley authorized and qualified propeller overhaul facility in accordance with the appropriate McCauley propeller overhaul manual.
   

 

[GlennAB1]

(3) Propeller major alterations. The following alterations of a propeller when not authorized in the propeller specifications issued by the FAA are propeller major alterations:

(i) Changes in blade design.

(ii) Changes in hub design.

(iii) Changes in the governor or control design.

(iv) Installation of a propeller governor or feathering system.

(v) Installation of propeller de-icing system.

(vi) Installation of parts not approved for the propeller.

Just for Glen. The rest of ya probably looked it up already.

That's not the reference you gave.

 

[JAWS]

Did you notice that your reference only gives AC's as the recommended method of care for fixed pitch 2 blade metal props.

OK. And what point are you trying to make now? What references would you use? Apparently the manufacturer's manual, that you say doesn't exist, is wrong or limiting in some way.

 

[GlennAB1]

FAR 43-A( c)-3

43-A (c) puts you down in preventive maintenance

 

[JAWS]

1. NOTE: The Model 1L100 Series Maintenance and Overhaul manual may be used only by McCauley approved propeller repair stations.
   From your reference :

1. General

McCAULEY PROPELLER SYSTEMS

OWNER/OPERATOR

INFORMATION MANUAL

INTRODUCTION

1. This Owner/Operator Manual provides familiarization and line maintenance instructions for McCauley fixed pitch composite propellers.
   
   
2. All maintenance and service procedures described and authorized in this manual must be done only by qualified personnel.
   
   
3. Overhaul or any repair procedure that involves the scarf repair, stripping, or resurfacing of the propeller must be done only by a McCauley authorized and qualified propeller overhaul facility in accordance with the appropriate McCauley propeller overhaul manual.

Here is the link again. http://www.mccauley.textron.com/manuals.html
Please note that there are two manuals listed. The one you quoted from is MPC280W, which you are correct, is for composite props.
I made the silly assumption that those interested would know to open the other manual shown, MPC260W, which is titled "Aluminum Propeller Owner/Operator Information Manual".
Try it, you might like it! Lots of good information in there.

 

[Tom-D]

OK. And what point are you trying to make now? What references would you use? Apparently the manufacturer's manual, that you say doesn't exist, is wrong or limiting in some way.

The point is the manual you referred does not pertain to field maintenance. A&Ps can do nothing to props except minor maintenance.
when there is no maintenance instructions we are directed to use ACs and your reference gives two.
but remember ACs are not mandatory.
Bottom line ? you can do pretty much as you please s long as it is not considered "major' IAW FAR 43-A.
Why does the FAA do it this way? Because there are a multitude of props out there that have no instructions what so ever.

 

[Tom-D]

Here is the link again. http://www.mccauley.textron.com/manuals.html
Please note that there are two manuals listed. The one you quoted from is MPC280W, which you are correct, is for composite props.
I made the silly assumption that those interested would know to open the other manual shown, MPC260W, which is titled "Aluminum Propeller Owner/Operator Information Manual".
Try it, you might like it! Lots of good information in there.

Did you read that manual?

 

[Tom-D]

2. Model Designations
A. The following can be used to determine your propeller model series: • Two blade fixed pitch: -- 1L100 Series.

These are the propellers manufactured after the requirement for ICAs came to be.
the 1A170 is a different series. manufactured long before ICAs were required.

So the prudent use the Ac43,13 s the guide as well as all other propellers not covered by their own manuals.

 

[GlennAB1]

not a requirement.
I'm not going to spoon feed you guys, I gave you the pertinent regulations, It's up to you to learn or not.
Things you should have learned is, that an A&P is only allowed to do minor maintenance on props.
and the old metal props that were made and placed in service prior to the advent of ICAs have no instructions for their care after they leave the prop shops.

FAR 43-A ( c) doesn't show a repair that changes the balance of a prop as a major repair.( it doesn't even mention balance in that section) so painting is not a major and allowed in the field. 43 also tells us that painting a prop is not an owner do. and must be returned to service by an A&P.

You obviously don't know the pertinent regulation.
FAR 43-A (c) which you keep referencing is Preventive Maintenance
Maybe you meant: 43-A(a)(3)Propeller Major Alterations
or maybe you meant: 43-A(b)(3)Propeller Major Repairs
Either way, you keep spoon feeding us guys the wrong FAR.

 

[JAWS]

The point is the manual you referred does not pertain to field maintenance. A&Ps can do nothing to props except minor maintenance.
when there is no maintenance instructions we are directed to use ACs and your reference gives two.
but remember ACs are not mandatory.
Bottom line ? you can do pretty much as you please s long as it is not considered "major' IAW FAR 43-A.
Why does the FAA do it this way? Because there are a multitude of props out there that have no instructions what so ever.

Try going to MPC260W. Looks like maintenance instructions to me. I also have a 1962 and previous 100 series Cessna aircraft maintenance manual and it has a section on McCauley prop maintenance. Then there is AC43.13-1B, and also AC 20-37, which are more generic in nature. Lots of "acceptable data" to choose from for "non-major repairs".

By the way, you can't (or more accurately shouldn't) "do as you please". There are standards that are supposed be adhered to, to ensure that all aircraft remain airworthy. Even when it comes to painting a prop, which is where this all started with.

 

[JAWS]

2. Model Designations
A. The following can be used to determine your propeller model series: • Two blade fixed pitch: -- 1L100 Series.

These are the propellers manufactured after the requirement for ICAs came to be.
the 1A170 is a different series. manufactured long before ICAs were required.

So the prudent use the Ac43,13 s the guide as well as all other propellers not covered by their own manuals.

Once again, you are quoting the wrong manual. Please go to manual MPC260W titled "Aluminum Propeller Owner/Operator Information Manual".

 

[bnt83]

Lol, how may FBOs serving the tiny piston engine aircraft market have a bunch of Sherwin Williams Polane T & wash primer laying around to do prop touch up? They use rattle-cans...

 

[weirdjim]

Lol, how may FBOs serving the tiny piston engine aircraft market have a bunch of Sherwin Williams Polane T & wash primer laying around to do prop touch up? They use rattle-cans...

And the correct (albeit of questionable strict legality) question should be, "Which rattle can is BEST?" and I think we've answered that one. Can we get back to how many FAA inspectors can dance on the head of a flathead rivet? Or was that how many flathead FAA inspectors can dance on the head of a rivet?

Jim

 

[JAWS]

As do I.

But I like to know what the recommended products and procedures are before just diving in.

 

[Tom-D]

Once again, you are quoting the wrong manual. Please go to manual MPC260W titled "Aluminum Propeller Owner/Operator Information Manual"
That quote came directly From that manual.

And by the way, A&P mechanics in the field are not allowed by their privileges, to do the maintenance out lined in that manual.

65.87

 

[JAWS]

2. Model Designations
A. The following can be used to determine your propeller model series: • Two blade fixed pitch: -- 1L100 Series

Let me help you, Tom. From MPC260W, second page:

And from the Maintenance Procedures section:

 

[Tom-D]

Exactly, not a single maintenance action listed in the entire manual. unless you consider corrosion preventive measures a maintenance action.

 

[JAWS]

Exactly, not a single maintenance action listed in the entire manual. unless you consider corrosion preventive measures a maintenance action.

Um, actually, yes I do and so does FAR 43, Appendix A "Preventative Maintenance:

"(10) Applying preservative or protective material to components where no disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is involved and where such coating is not prohibited or is not contrary to good practices."

And as far as our McCauley Manual goes:


Page 202 - Looks like maintenance to me.


Page 203 - Looks like maintenance to me.


Page 204 - Looks like maintenance to me.


Page 205 - Looks like maintenance to me.


Page 205 - Looks like maintenance to me.


Page 401 - Looks like maintenance to me.


Page 501 - Looks like maintenance to me.


Page 701 - Looks like maintenance to me.

Tom, why don't you just say "Thanks for the information" and end this ****ing contest?

 

[GlennAB1]

Exactly, not a single maintenance action listed in the entire manual. unless you consider corrosion preventive measures a maintenance action.

Bull. Scroll down to page 801, Propeller Approved Repairs

From 61-00-06

- Operators CAN do the following: (1) Perform a visual preflight inspection of the blades for nicks, scratches, dents, erosion, corrosion, cracks, etc. Apparent damage found should be referred to an appropriately rated mechanic. A crack or bend is cause for the removal of the propeller

- Inspect all blades for damage such as scrapes, gouges, etc. caused by the impact. Any damage beyond normal field repair limits, refer to Blade Repair for field repair limits, is cause for propeller removal and repair as defined below

Read the whole manual, Tom.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Oh...my.

 

[Bell206]

An old client asked me if I would post a comment or two to ease his confusion.

A pilot can paint touch up a propeller--on his own/operated Part 91 aircraft--under Part 43 App A, Sub-section C, Preventative Maintenance, item #10. This is provided the task is to replace the protective coating (paint) only. If corrosion or a defect is present in the touch up area that requires work then an A&P would be required as this is maintenance, and not preventative.

As to the paint itself, most paints are not “certified” or “approved”—unless you’re discussing something like runway markings. They are generally considered standard articles.

While you may find a specific OEM paint called out as part of a larger maintenance or overhaul procedure there still is regulatory method to deviate to another coating using existing performance rules in 43.13(a) and (b) which also covers preventative maintenance.

Now, for example, if a specific paint by name and part number is listed in a Sensenich or McCauley prop FAA approved Airworthiness Limitations Section, to be used for all paint touch up and re-paints, then yes, you would be required to use that specific paint.

And lastly, most prop OEMs recommend applying wax or an oil product, depending on base material, to the blades regularly in order to preserve the protective coating and/or surface being discussed here.


Interesting site and opinions…

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Here I thought Tom was the expert on this....

 

[JAWS]

An old client asked me if I would post a comment or two to ease his confusion.

A pilot can paint touch up a propeller--on his own/operated Part 91 aircraft--under Part 43 App A, Sub-section C, Preventative Maintenance, item #10. This is provided the task is to replace the protective coating (paint) only. If corrosion or a defect is present in the touch up area that requires work then an A&P would be required as this is maintenance, and not preventative.

As to the paint itself, most paints are not “certified” or “approved”—unless you’re discussing something like runway markings. They are generally considered standard articles.

While you may find a specific OEM paint called out as part of a larger maintenance or overhaul procedure there still is regulatory method to deviate to another coating using existing performance rules in 43.13(a) and (b) which also covers preventative maintenance.

Now, for example, if a specific paint by name and part number is listed in a Sensenich or McCauley prop FAA approved Airworthiness Limitations Section, to be used for all paint touch up and re-paints, then yes, you would be required to use that specific paint.

And lastly, most prop OEMs recommend applying wax or an oil product, depending on base material, to the blades regularly in order to preserve the protective coating and/or surface being discussed here.


Interesting site and opinions…

I tip my hat to you, sir! Very well stated and bang on!

I prefer to use the Tempo prop paint for field touch-ups. It is a bit finicky to use, but I have used it enough to get it to spray decently. And all of my usual props I look after are turbine Hartzells, which the manufacturer has specified using this product for this purpose. I would use it on a Senseich or McCauley in a heartbeat, based on my previous experiences. On a private aircraft, I wouldn't lose much sleep with using Rustolium or XX brand either.

As was pointed out, the idea of this whole thing is to provide environmental protection to the prop and also provide a flat black prop face towards the pilot so he doesn't get distracting reflections from the spinning disc up front.

 

[Tom-D]

Bull. Scroll down to page 801, Propeller Approved Repairs

From 61-00-06

- Operators CAN do the following: (1) Perform a visual preflight inspection of the blades for nicks, scratches, dents, erosion, corrosion, cracks, etc. Apparent damage found should be referred to an appropriately rated mechanic. A crack or bend is cause for the removal of the propeller

- Inspect all blades for damage such as scrapes, gouges, etc. caused by the impact. Any damage beyond normal field repair limits, refer to Blade Repair for field repair limits, is cause for propeller removal and repair as defined below

Read the whole manual, Tom.

I did,,it is an owners manual. or McCauley would have named it a Maintenance manual.

did you see any method of repairing any of the discrepancies found?

You should read the "NOTE" that says these items are"NOT" Prevenitive maintenance.

There are no Repair manuals that are to be used as repairs in the field. just owner manuals that give the ICAs for the owner to use as airworthy guidance.

I asked in post for some one to show a "MAINTENANCE manual. No one has, best any one has come up with is the owners manual, why? because McCAuley does not want anyone doing maintenance in the field.
The FAA actually places it in our A&P privileges we are not allowed to do repairs in the field.

 

[Tom-D]

Um, actually, yes I do and so does FAR 43, Appendix A "Preventative Maintenance

Except your OWNER OPERATOR manual has a note that these instructions are not preventive maintenance.

I think you best re-read the manual you believe is a maintenance manual, because it is NOT.

Did you also read this?

(a) Major alterations—(1) Airframe major alterations. Alterations of the following parts and alterations of the following types, when not listed in the aircraft specifications issued by the FAA, are airframe major alterations:

That goes for the propeller also :
And the very manual that you believe is a maintenance manual, gives the specifications for the prop.

Plus Item 10
(10) Applying preservative or protective material to components where no disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is involved and where such coating is not prohibited or is not contrary to good practices.
The owner operator manual that is referenced many times here says stripping and painting is not allowed by unauthorized persons.

Read the manual so highly thought of here, it forbids all but what is gives as owner do's

 

[Tom-D]

Here I thought Tom was the expert on this....

Tom doesn't work on props he isn't allowed to, even as a IA. All I'm allowed to do is remove and send it to the prop shop when it exceeds the limits set forth in the OWNERS / OPERATORS manual.

 

[Tom-D]

Oh...my.

Um, actually, yes I do and so does FAR 43, Appendix A "Preventative Maintenance:

"(10) Applying preservative or protective material to components where no disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is involved and where such coating is not prohibited or is not contrary to good practices."

And as far as our McCauley Manual goes:

View attachment 56938
Page 202 - Looks like maintenance to me.

View attachment 56939
Page 203 - Looks like maintenance to me.

View attachment 56940
Page 204 - Looks like maintenance to me.

View attachment 56941
Page 205 - Looks like maintenance to me.

View attachment 56942
Page 205 - Looks like maintenance to me.

View attachment 56943
Page 401 - Looks like maintenance to me.

View attachment 56944
Page 501 - Looks like maintenance to me.

View attachment 56945
Page 701 - Looks like maintenance to me.

Tom, why don't you just say "Thanks for the information" and end this ****ing contest?

Not a single repair in the bunch allow to be done by an A&P.
When you realize you are not allowed to repair props in the field.
and painting is a repair. Or your owner's manual would tell you how/ and with what.

 

[Tom-D]

An old client asked me if I would post a comment or two to ease his confusion.

A pilot can paint touch up a propeller--on his own/operated Part 91 aircraft--under Part 43 App A, Sub-section C, Preventative Maintenance, item #10. This is provided the task is to replace the protective coating (paint) only. If corrosion or a defect is present in the touch up area that requires work then an A&P would be required as this is maintenance, and not preventative.

As to the paint itself, most paints are not “certified” or “approved”—unless you’re discussing something like runway markings. They are generally considered standard articles.

While you may find a specific OEM paint called out as part of a larger maintenance or overhaul procedure there still is regulatory method to deviate to another coating using existing performance rules in 43.13(a) and (b) which also covers preventative maintenance.

Now, for example, if a specific paint by name and part number is listed in a Sensenich or McCauley prop FAA approved Airworthiness Limitations Section, to be used for all paint touch up and re-paints, then yes, you would be required to use that specific paint

And lastly, most prop OEMs recommend applying wax or an oil product, depending on base material, to the blades regularly in order to preserve the protective coating and/or surface being discussed here.


Interesting site and opinions…

Actually you got most every thing correct except the application of preventive maintenance item 10, The ICAs for any item takes precedence over Preventive maintenance, simply because the ICAs are the preventive maintenance for the item.

 

[Tom-D]

Quotes from your owner's manual.
This Owner/Operator Manual provides familiarization and line maintenance instructions for McCauley fixed pitch composite propellers.

His whole reference manual is for the composite series. not a single reference to any McCauley metal propellers

All maintenance and service procedures described and authorized in this manual must be done only by qualified personnel.

See any A&P functions?

 

[GlennAB1]

Tom, you're like a ****ing Chameleon. What ever works for you at the moment. You've argued that mechanics can't use that manual, now arguing about it not being preventive maintenance, yet in the past he argued that he didn't have to follow maintenance manuals, structural repair manuals, even 43.13 because his A&P schooling is sufficient.

McCauley only has two manuals published.
MPC260W and MPC280W.

They obviously combined information from several publications into a single volume.

Check out the heading on page 4/260 of MPC260W.

Maintenance Manual - Introduction
Ahhhhh, they missed revising that page to read "Information Manual"

 

[Tom-D]

When you doubt me, call FSDO and ask them.
And with that I'm done spoon feed the peanut gallery.

 

[GlennAB1]

Page 6/260
McCAULEY PROPELLER SYSTEMS OWNER/OPERATOR INFORMATION MANUAL LIST OF REVISIONS 1. General A. This manual, MPC-26, includes the original issue and the revisions listed in Table 1. To ensure information in this manual is current and the latest maintenance and inspections procedures are available, the revisions must be incorporated in the manual as they are issued. Table 1. Original Issue -- April 7, 2008 Revision Number Date Revision Number Date 1 Dec 7, 2009 2 Mar 13, 2013 3 Aug 18, 2014 4 Oct 19, 2015 B. FAA Approved Airworthiness Limitations are incorporated in this maintenance manual as Chapter 4. Revisions to Chapter 4 are dated as approved by the FAA Regional Manager, Aircraft Certification Office. To ensure that the maintenance information required under Parts 43.16 and 91.403 of Part 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations is current, the revisions listed in Table 2 must be incorporated in Chapter 4 as they are issued.

 

[Anymouse]

When you doubt me, call FSDO and ask them.
And with that I'm done spoon feed the peanut gallery.

I would go broke putting all those quarters in the pay phone!

 

[Tom-D]

I would go broke putting all those quarters in the pay phone!

then E-mail them.

 

[GlennAB1]

Page 12/260
B. Page Numbering System. (1) All system/subsystem/unit (chapter/section/subject) maintenance data is separated into specific types of information: description and operation, troubleshooting, maintenance practices. Blocks of sequential page numbers are used to identify the type of information: Page 1 through 99 Description and Operation Page 101 through 199 Troubleshooting Page 201 through 299 Maintenance Practices
(2) Relatively simple units may not require description and operation, troubleshooting information. In such cases, these pages are omitted. When subtopics are brief, they may be combined into a topic entitled Maintenance Practices. Maintenance Practices is actually a combination of subtopics, including Servicing, Removal/Installation, Adjustment/Test, Cleaning/Painting or Approved Repairs.

 

[GlennAB1]

When you doubt me, call FSDO and ask them.
And with that I'm done spoon feed the peanut gallery.

LOL

Again:
65.81 General privileges and limitations.
(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.

 

[JAWS]

Once again, here is the link to the McCauley manuals. http://www.mccauley.textron.com/manuals.html
The manual of interest is MPC260W, titled "Aluminum Propeller Owner/Operator Information Manual".
Please read the use of the term "instructions for continued airworthiness (ICA)" within the text.
I don't care what the manufacturer calls their manual - if it provides ICA material, then that is what I can legally use.
Is it the only thing I can use? No, there are options available. But don't say it doesn't exist, as it clearly does.

 

[Tom-D]

View attachment 56964

Did you notice the last sentence of para (B) ?
Kinda shoots your whole theory in the foot.