Proficiency after PPL ticket

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Rayden

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Rayden
So I am thinking a little bit further out and trying to envision what's next after the PPL ticket.

How many hours of flying do you believe it takes monthly and yearly to remain proficient - Single engine piston land. What kind of flying do you need to do? Other than owning a plane, how practical is it to rent or join a club do remain proficient?
 
not over about 10-20 hours monthly...


Seriously though, join a club and meet some friends, if you can..
 
Personally I do at least one flight every three weeks.
 
This was something I worried about a lot after getting my PPL. In the beginning I flew every other week, mostly giving people rides and practicing in the pattern. After a bit, that got dull so I started going on XC's. Now, basically if I fly every 3 weeks or so I feel completely safe and proficient. Experience builds confidence and I don't feel I need to fly every week anymore like I did during training and immediately after passing my check ride. Others will disagree and say you should fly more but that's not always possible for some of us.

I'd also venture to say that if you are flying different planes all the time you'd want to fly more often. I really only ever fly a 172 and after 100 hours in one it does not take much exposure to become proficient.
 
Rayden said:
How many hours of flying do you believe it takes monthly and yearly to remain proficient - Single engine piston land.
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That could encompass anything from an Ercoupe to a Piper Malibu, and the answer would vary considerably in that range. But for the typical light single of the 172 class, I'd say, based on what I've seen flying as an instructor with various Private Pilots, about four hours a month/50 hours a year.

What kind of flying do you need to do?
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A mix of flying including some pattern work, maneuvering air work, and cross-country flying (especially to unfamiliar airports).

Other than owning a plane, how practical is it to rent or join a club do remain proficient?
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Quite practical, and at the low end of the flight hour scale being discussed (about 50 hours/yr), a lot cheaper than ownership.
 
It depends. I fly about 3 to four hours a week. However, I might propose to you if you are flying just to stay proficient, and not because you enjoy it, why fly? There are probably other things to do with your money and time that you enjoy more. For me flying is an escape from the hectic life I live, and I look foward to my weekends of flying. Even if it is just a few trips around the pattern, it is something I enjoy. If it becomes a chore, then it will be time to find something else to spend my money on. Until then I wll fly every chance I can.

Doug
 
I averaged 2 hrs/mo in 172's while saving/building our RV-10. I would say I was current, but not proficient at everything. I had never flown over 1 hour away, so had some xc learning to do with the -10. I always practiced stalls, slow flight, t-n-g's on every flight. Tried to get out in 10-20 kt winds occasionally too. Now, I probably average 4 hours/mo in our -10, more long cross country trips, but still practice maneuvers solo/full gross. Everyone gets rusty at different rates, so fly enough so that you don't get jittery. If planning to take passengers up with you, show up early to go out and "check the plane out". Your passengers will be safer for that. You don't have to tell them your knocking the cob webs out.

It cost me about $200/hr flying 50 hrs/yr in our -10. If the economy picks back up I will fly more. I am happy I own and could not get the performance/glass panel renting. I sure am glad for the renting I did. It built time and confidence without all of the responsibilities of ownership.
 
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To be proficient I have to fly at least (bare minimum) every two weeks. Otherwise I start to slip.
 
By coincidence I was sitting here thinking about a related thread when I saw this one. The subject--that I think about more than any other--is how we could improve GA's accident rate without a total re-write.

Any comparison to 121 and big-iron 135/91 accident rates shows that our segment enjoys a firm and consistent grip on hind tit. The reality is that our run-of-the-mill PPL group will never fly or train as hard as the bigs for many reasons, so it's foolish to think that full-bore recurrent training (sim or otherwise) will be ever be required even though the question of whether it should be remains open to debate.

Stats also seem to point to a potential PPL "killing zone" with a delayed fuse that is triggered well after PPL training is completed, rather than on the first trip after the temp. is in pocket. The accidents we read about seem to occur most often during trips, rather than home-drome circuits, when leads me to think that pilots concentrate more on stick-and-rudder proficiency (for all the logical cost and time-commitment reasons) rather than the skills that are necessary for X/C stuff.

I also spend quite a bit of time thinking about the differences in the way pilots are trained and minted for carrier/passenger work rather than GA, and wonder if any are feasible if adapted to our needs. The first difference is that the newbie goes immediately to the right seat rather than the left. Lots of good things happen over there, but most PA pilots abhor sitting there, even those who can't fly a lick. The second difference is the IOE (inital operating experience) requirement that new crewmembers receive when they hire on or upgrade. During the phase they do the job for the seat for which they have been trained, but somebody else is along to observe and critique, rather than to teach, but with the newbie will benefit from the imparting of knowledge and experience from the old dog.

I've had the opportunity to be both dogs over time, and can't begin to list all of the benefits that have come my way as a result.
 
That is a great idea, but many GA pilots don't have the finances to pay for a CFI or just don't want to fly with someone else looking over their shoulder. After my PP I found one experienced pilot willing to ride along to teach me some xc/weather ADM. Believe me, there are not many standing in line ready to go. That helped me and my family tremendously. I wish we had a list of experienced pilots from each state willing to share their flying experiences with new pilots. I know I would volunteer for a good lunch or an expenses paid trip to the beach somewhere. Some also may be intimidated or have too big of an ego to ask a more experienced pilot for help. A pilot can learn much on this site, but nothing compares to getting out there with another pilot on a longer xc from initial planning to reviewing things after the trip.
 
I don't think asking PPL's what they want will ever provide a satisfactory solution to the problem. They have already spoken, and the answer is unmistakably clear. The choice is whether the results based on their ongoing answer is acceptable.

RV10flyer said:
That is a great idea, but many GA pilots don't have the finances to pay for a CFI or just don't want to fly with someone else looking over their shoulder. After my PP I found one experienced pilot willing to ride along to teach me some xc/weather ADM. Believe me, there are not many standing in line ready to go. That helped me and my family tremendously. I wish we had a list of experienced pilots from each state willing to share their flying experiences with new pilots. I know I would volunteer for a good lunch or an expenses paid trip to the beach somewhere. Some also may be intimidated or have too big of an ego to ask a more experienced pilot for help. A pilot can learn much on this site, but nothing compares to getting out there with another pilot on a longer xc from initial planning to reviewing things after the trip.
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So it seems like 4 hrs/month or 50hrs/yr. is a minimum desired goal. In my situation that seems to be achievable, albeit still pricey in the current cost conditions of GA. I am excited to venture into this new Hobby (hoping that I like it as much a year from now than I currently do) and am starting to think further ahead.

We really need more flying clubs in the Houston Metro area.
 
I think a lot depends on the individual and their experience. Somebody like Wayne or Cap'n Ron who have forgotten more than I will ever learn could probably go months or even years without flying and still be perfectly safe. Most of us can get by on 50 hours a year or so, as long as the type of flying is mixed (like XC, basic proficiency stuff that you have to do for the PPL, and pattern work). I would figure 50 hours or so, minimum to stay safe enough so that friends and family can ride with you without getting killed. Also, in between time, keep you head in the game constantly. My $0.02 worth.
 
In my case the reason I'm an advocate of ongoing training is that I know how quickly rust forms on my tiny mind. They are called "perishable skills" for good reason.

somorris said:
I think a lot depends on the individual and their experience. Somebody like Wayne or Cap'n Ron who have forgotten more than I will ever learn could probably go months or even years without flying and still be perfectly safe. Most of us can get by on 50 hours a year or so, as long as the type of flying is mixed (like XC, basic proficiency stuff that you have to do for the PPL, and pattern work). I would figure 50 hours or so, minimum to stay safe enough so that friends and family can ride with you without getting killed. Also, in between time, keep you head in the game constantly. My $0.02 worth.
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After taking a break, sometimes I find I require more effort to convince myself to get to the airport than the effort to move the controls.

...and then it hits me that I want to go fly. And I do.
 
Ron Levy said:
That could encompass anything from an Ercoupe to a Piper Malibu, and the answer would vary considerably in that range. But for the typical light single of the 172 class, I'd say, based on what I've seen flying as an instructor with various Private Pilots, about four hours a month/50 hours a year.

A mix of flying including some pattern work, maneuvering air work, and cross-country flying (especially to unfamiliar airports).

Quite practical, and at the low end of the flight hour scale being discussed (about 50 hours/yr), a lot cheaper than ownership.
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This. I recently did a flight review for a guy who fly's about 6 hours per month, but does nothing (and I mean nothing), but pattern work. Needless to say he looked quite terrified when I told him we were going to fly to another airport about 20 NM away; however, his landings were excellent :lol:
 
Rayden said:
So I am thinking a little bit further out and trying to envision what's next after the PPL ticket.

How many hours of flying do you believe it takes monthly and yearly to remain proficient - Single engine piston land. What kind of flying do you need to do? Other than owning a plane, how practical is it to rent or join a club do remain proficient?
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IMO just achieving your PPL does not make you proficient. I think proficiency occurs about 100-150 hrs within a year with at least 300 landings and most or all in the same aircraft.

After that-Define proficient? If you simply want to be able to take off on a clear day little or no cross winds and less than 10 mph winds and land at the same airport after boring some holes in the sky for awhile then you should be able to do this on one hour a week. you can probably even do some $200 hamburger runs with the same proficiency.

However, If proficient means that you can go cross country vfr on at least a 2-3 hr each way trip (be prepared to land with 15-20 knot cross wind component in heavy winds and various other airports from what you are used to flying) transfer different weather systems and take a passenger who is not a pilot then perhaps you should try to fly at least 2 hrs a week until you get to this level and to maintain it.

If you want to be able to do soft field landings, short field landings, land on river banks and that sort of flying then you probably should increase your flying until you have 250-500 hrs in type or at least practiced same before doing them live so to speak. You can do it with less but to get proficient and stay there requires some vigilance.

If you cannot get to the airplane every week then using MS simulator on your laptop can help your brain to stay current and you will feel much more proficient using a simulator between extended flights than if you do not use any simulator at all and still go weeks or months without flights.

So you might wish to start working towards your IR and commercial license since you will be flying regularly anyway. I would split the fun stuff with the goal oriented stuff.

Edit: I just read the rest of the thread and I agree with Wayne and Capt Levy. I took every chance to fly with other aviators. Better if they were experienced but I also learned flying with Jr aviators. Your learning continues on every flight and to have another aviator along is always a chance for additional learning. As an owner you can always find a CFI who will borrow your plane and give you some additional duel time in exchange. I never miss a chance to fly with other aviators. I personally believe that both pilots in the front seats benefit from every minute in those seats. So even if you can't log time flying with a non CFI it is still valuable to your development. I always advise pilots who fly with me that they should advise me of any issues that they see that I can benefit from feedback so that they don't feel rude correcting me if I make a mistake of get into a bad habit. I welcome all advice.
 
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GCA319 said:
This. I recently did a flight review for a guy who fly's about 6 hours per month, but does nothing (and I mean nothing), but pattern work. Needless to say he looked quite terrified when I told him we were going to fly to another airport about 20 NM away; however, his landings were excellent :lol:
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Immediately after I got my PPL I flew to Wichita-Miami 1700 miles and then back the other way Wichita-Thermal, CA 1300 miles and back. I did this a dozen times and by the time I had 100 hrs past ppl I had more real interstate xcountry than most of the career track time building CFI's in the area. I always invited a few CFI friends to go with me but they never had time to take trips they had to stay and build hours and pay by flying with students.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Edit: I just read the rest of the thread and I agree with Wayne and Capt Levy. I took every chance to fly with other aviators. Better if they were experienced but I also learned flying with Jr aviators. Your learning continues on every flight and to have another aviator along is always a chance for additional learning. As an owner you can always find a CFI who will borrow your plane and give you some additional duel time in exchange. I never miss a chance to fly with other aviators. I personally believe that both pilots in the front seats benefit from every minute in those seats. So even if you can't log time flying with a non CFI it is still valuable to your development. I always advise pilots who fly with me that they should advise me of any issues that they see that I can benefit from feedback so that they don't feel rude correcting me if I make a mistake of get into a bad habit. I welcome all advice.
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One of the best tips I've ever read on POA -- Thanks, Tony!
 
Good stuffs .... sounds expensive LOL :mad2:

Tony_Scarpelli said:
IMO just achieving your PPL does not make you proficient. I think proficiency occurs about 100-150 hrs within a year with at least 300 landings and most or all in the same aircraft.

After that-Define proficient? If you simply want to be able to take off on a clear day little or no cross winds and less than 10 mph winds and land at the same airport after boring some holes in the sky for awhile then you should be able to do this on one hour a week. you can probably even do some $200 hamburger runs with the same proficiency.

However, If proficient means that you can go cross country vfr on at least a 2-3 hr each way trip (be prepared to land with 15-20 knot cross wind component in heavy winds and various other airports from what you are used to flying) transfer different weather systems and take a passenger who is not a pilot then perhaps you should try to fly at least 2 hrs a week until you get to this level and to maintain it.

If you want to be able to do soft field landings, short field landings, land on river banks and that sort of flying then you probably should increase your flying until you have 250-500 hrs in type or at least practiced same before doing them live so to speak. You can do it with less but to get proficient and stay there requires some vigilance.

If you cannot get to the airplane every week then using MS simulator on your laptop can help your brain to stay current and you will feel much more proficient using a simulator between extended flights than if you do not use any simulator at all and still go weeks or months without flights.

So you might wish to start working towards your IR and commercial license since you will be flying regularly anyway. I would split the fun stuff with the goal oriented stuff.

Edit: I just read the rest of the thread and I agree with Wayne and Capt Levy. I took every chance to fly with other aviators. Better if they were experienced but I also learned flying with Jr aviators. Your learning continues on every flight and to have another aviator along is always a chance for additional learning. As an owner you can always find a CFI who will borrow your plane and give you some additional duel time in exchange. I never miss a chance to fly with other aviators. I personally believe that both pilots in the front seats benefit from every minute in those seats. So even if you can't log time flying with a non CFI it is still valuable to your development. I always advise pilots who fly with me that they should advise me of any issues that they see that I can benefit from feedback so that they don't feel rude correcting me if I make a mistake of get into a bad habit. I welcome all advice.
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Tacking on to what Wayne said.

One of the differences I see is that 99.9% of all training or flying that PPL's do is on VFR, light wind, pleasant temperature days, CFI's there or not. This in contrast to professionals that fly in any flyable weather, train in the SIM for the worst possible conditions, and use the IFR system everyday.

SOOO... My comment is get your hands dirty. If you have a 15-20 Knot direct crosswind day, GO FLY. If you have low stratus without convection, GO FLY. Rain, wind, snow, GO FLY. Use the IFR system, I don't mean the rating, I mean know how to get what you need, that does't happen unless you use it.
 
But I think that's the difference b/t "recreational" and "hobby" flying, vs. flying or training to fly professionally. As recreational, sometimes I think we need to weigh the risk/reward thing and not push the envelop. Of course that is NOT to say don't fly unless good weather and only VFR, but just saying we have to know our goal/purpose of flying, no?

If/when I get my PPL, and I like it as much as I think I do, then I would definitely be interested in advancing with IR and fly more challenging conditions. I still need to take my first small plane ride first :lol:

Alexb2000 said:
Tacking on to what Wayne said.

One of the differences I see is that 99.9% of all training or flying that PPL's do is on VFR, light wind, pleasant temperature days, CFI's there or not. This in contrast to professionals that fly in any flyable weather, train in the SIM for the worst possible conditions, and use the IFR system everyday.

SOOO... My comment is get your hands dirty. If you have a 15-20 Knot direct crosswind day, GO FLY. If you have low stratus without convection, GO FLY. Rain, wind, snow, GO FLY. Use the IFR system, I don't mean the rating, I mean know how to get what you need, that does't happen unless you use it.
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If you get a fly buddy half the costs are on him and half on you.

If you fly 1 hr a week, it is not that bad. If you can only fly 1 hr every other week then using Microsoft sim between flights will help.

What i gave is somewhat ideal.

If it takes you another year to get to 100 hrs total time or 150 hrs that is ok just work towards that.

I got many free hours just volunteering to go along on long rides with other pilots. I had a buddy cfi and he ferried flights. I would tag along for free or pay my way back. Those were great learning flights.

I helped someone who just bought his plane to fly their airplane from West coast to East coast. That was like 20 hrs in 3 days. I could not log any of the time but the experience was invaluable to me. I helped another friend pickup a new to him airplane that he wanted moved from East coast and brought to Utah. I had my local cfi buddy go with me for I think $90 per day just to replace his lost wages and we had a hell of a time for the cost of fuel only. There was another 16 hrs free flight time. I was able to log that with my cfi along. The owner actually chipped in the gas money so it really only cost me my ticket to get home. What a great trip it was. These opportunities come up from time to time but you have to have some flexibility to take advantage of them.

I don't need deals like this to get free flying as I owned 2 of my own airplanes during both of these flights, I am just saying that someone like you could work into these sorts of deals and lower you total cost of obtaining experience.

Also on both of these transcontinental flights I had another aviator on board so I was learning something as well as teaching something to them on both flights. All your flying does not have to cost you a great deal of money.

Many people pay through the nose until they get their CFI and then they get to not only fly on someone elses dime but they get paid to do it. I know plenty of part time CFI's who are building time and ratings and experience in many a/c. The thing is to just chip away at it, never take chances and each flight adds to your total experience and one day you will have people with less experience than you ask you to help them move an airplane or go with them on a long boring trip just for your company.

People like me could care less about logging hours as I will never be a for hire pilot wanting a job or needing an ATP. So I would let you log all the time if we flew together, even though it might be my airplane and my gas. So there are plenty of ways to get flight time. I often like to take a 2nd pilot for safety when I take some pretty long trips. If you had the time to go along you would get free hours to long in your books.
 
Those are good pointers ... I am taking notes. I think striving for aircraft ownership something is a very achievable goal for me. Well maybe I will assess that better after my 1st scare LOL ...
 
Rayden said:
But I think that's the difference b/t "recreational" and "hobby" flying, vs. flying or training to fly professionally. As recreational, sometimes I think we need to weigh the risk/reward thing and not push the envelop. Of course that is NOT to say don't fly unless good weather and only VFR, but just saying we have to know our goal/purpose of flying, no?

If/when I get my PPL, and I like it as much as I think I do, then I would definitely be interested in advancing with IR and fly more challenging conditions. I still need to take my first small plane ride first :lol:
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I understand first things first.

The "hobby" flying in good weather works until you take a trip somewhere. Then one Sunday weather moves in earlier than expected. You really need to be at work Monday so you fly. Now you are in a very dangerous situation because you haven't trained or seen much of these conditions.
 
Yep, whether flying, music, golf or juggling, you aren't gonna get good by practicing the same easy stuff over and over.
Alexb2000 said:
I understand first things first.

The "hobby" flying in good weather works until you take a trip somewhere. Then one Sunday weather moves in earlier than expected. You really need to be at work Monday so you fly. Now you are in a very dangerous situation because you haven't trained or seen much of these conditions.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
If you fly 1 hr a week, it is not that bad. If you can only fly 1 hr every other week then using Microsoft sim between flights will help.
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Sage advice has been that the VFR pilot should remain aloof of flight simulation sans CFI. In English: The words given are ill-advised without caveats. I'm sure the experts on the forum will be along shortly to agree/ disagree. Me - I've chosen to NOT sim on my own.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Sage advice has been that the VFR pilot should remain aloof of flight simulation sans CFI. In English: The words given are ill-advised without caveats. I'm sure the experts on the forum will be along shortly to agree/ disagree. Me - I've chosen to NOT sim on my own.
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Jay I have heard their recommendations and much of which I agree with.
However when we are talking about someone flying 24 hrs a year using a flight sim program to stay familiar between flights with their airplane vs not using a sim...... great benefit can be had by simply going through the preflight, flight planning, start up check lists, and running a 50 minute xcountry fly terminating in another airport.

Your muscle memory and even your brain cannot tell the difference between a real flight and a simulated flight. So if you treat it with the same respect that you would a flight in an airplane your gain can be significant.

However using a sim with a CFI is great/Ideal and no doubt better than using one without however if the pilot had the money to do that he could just as easily go fly more and not need the sim at all. So I have to disagree with you 100%.

when I fly P51 mustangs and do all manner of crazy flights and do not 100% follow safe procedures I know the difference in a game and real life practice.

If you are using flight sim to dive bomb the local IRS office or flying under a suspension bridge you are probably right there is limited gain with this type of flying. However is you know you are here for a real purpose and discipline yourself to fly a 45 minute flight knowing you are going to print out and review the profile and then actually review the profile and learn from same then it is very helpful even without the guidance of a CFI.
 
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I have a fear, maybe that word is too strong, a concern about becoming rusty. I've had my PPL about a year and a month now and have flown about 80 hours in that time with 50 of it being XC time.

It concerns me when a week goes by in which I can not do some flying of some description even if it's nothing more than going around the patch a few times.

Of the flying I've done since my checkride, I feel that I have made my XC time very beneficial. I have consciously worked on holding precise heading and altitude, learning about radio communications and practicing it, and just soaking up the many things that you learn in XC flying.

There have been a very few weeks when I wasn't able to fly at least a little bit. I would hate to think of not flying once a week and still be expecting to moving my flying skill forward.


My $.02,
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Jay I have heard their recommendations and much of which I agree with.
However when we are talking about someone flying 24 hrs a year using a flight sim program to stay familiar between flights with their airplane vs not using a sim...... great benefit can be had by simply going through the preflight, flight planning, start up check lists, and running a 50 minute xcountry fly terminating in another airport.

Your muscle memory and even your brain cannot tell the difference between a real flight and a simulated flight. So if you treat it with the same respect that you would a flight in an airplane your gain can be significant.

However using a sim with a CFI is great/Ideal and no doubt better than using one without however if the pilot had the money to do that he could just as easily go fly more and not need the sim at all. So I have to disagree with you 100%.

when I fly P51 mustangs and do all manner of crazy flights and do not 100% follow safe procedures I know the difference in a game and real life practice.

If you are using flight sim to dive bomb the local IRS office or flying under a suspension bridge you are probably right there is limited gain with this type of flying. However is you know you are here for a real purpose and discipline yourself to fly a 45 minute flight knowing you are going to print out and review the profile and then actually review the profile and learn from same then it is very helpful even without the guidance of a CFI.
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Okay, then what degree of fidelity is required? A full cockpit?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Sage advice has been that the VFR pilot should remain aloof of flight simulation sans CFI. In English: The words given are ill-advised without caveats. I'm sure the experts on the forum will be along shortly to agree/ disagree. Me - I've chosen to NOT sim on my own.
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IMO that sage advice really only applies to using a sim or training device to learn instrument flying skills without a CFI. Even then I think you wouldn't necessarily need a CFI by your side everytime you fired up X-Plane or MSFS, as long as you're working on skills you've already been taught and involve a CFII frequently.


And it seems to me the same principle should apply to "VFR" currency practice on a sim, practice what you were taught and do it with a CFI once in a while. You can learn bad habits in an airplane too.

As to the value of "currency" work on a sim, I think that if you treat it like a "real" flight from startup to shutdown there would be some value but it isn't going to do much for your pattern work or communication skills.
 
I love X-plane and SIM flying. If anything the GA industry should do a much better job of providing information, training and services to the SIM community. So much money is invested in expensive systems to drag me out to the airport, seems someone could keep a lot of CFI's hired if they had virtual class rooms that supported remote simulations done through people with Xplane.. even if the time wasn't official time, i'd pay good money to spend a few hours a week with a CFI running through a SIM IFR approach or putting me through more realistic failure events and such.
 
+1. I've used an Elite IFR sim for many years. 30 minutes works wonders for scan and managing ancillary chores and allows practice of any approach or procedure.

gismo said:
IMO that sage advice really only applies to using a sim or training device to learn instrument flying skills without a CFI. Even then I think you wouldn't necessarily need a CFI by your side everytime you fired up X-Plane or MSFS, as long as you're working on skills you've already been taught and involve a CFII frequently.


And it seems to me the same principle should apply to "VFR" currency practice on a sim, practice what you were taught and do it with a CFI once in a while. You can learn bad habits in an airplane too.

As to the value of "currency" work on a sim, I think that if you treat it like a "real" flight from startup to shutdown there would be some value but it isn't going to do much for your pattern work or communication skills.
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
Immediately after I got my PPL I flew to Wichita-Miami 1700 miles and then back the other way Wichita-Thermal, CA 1300 miles and back. I did this a dozen times and by the time I had 100 hrs past ppl I had more real interstate xcountry than most of the career track time building CFI's in the area. I always invited a few CFI friends to go with me but they never had time to take trips they had to stay and build hours and pay by flying with students.
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Well you certaintly have this career track CFI beat when it comes to XC experience.
 
I have not been able to fly as much as I'd like this winter. A couple of nights ago, I looked online and saw VATSIM had center, approach, and tower for the Grand Forks, ND area. So I thought maybe I'd fly to Grand Forks.

I looked at the winds aloft, checked METARs, did some rough calculations, "filed a flight plan" (with VATSIM), and got my clearance.

Switched to CTAF, announced, got airborne, over to center, cleared to proceed on course (from initial heading of 360).

Requested VOR RWY 17R approach, cleared to cross the grand forks VOR at or above 2,400, and also cleared for the approach. I was ten miles out from the VOR.

http://www.aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1301/05187V17R.PDF

Here is one of the cool parts of simming where you have "ATC": it makes you think about situations that you wouldn't normally think about just studying. Like that moment; when to descend. The VOR to 17R there says you can descend to 2,400 once past BLITS. I'm already cleared to cross the VOR (5 miles away from BLITS) at or above 2,400.

Do I start my descent before the VOR? How much more? What should my rate of descent be? If I'm leaving an assigned altitude when not on a published portion of the approach, I'll need to tell ATC.

"Fortunately", I was only cruising at 5,000 in a Cessna 182 RG. I could easily wait for BLITS, and lose the altitude down to 2,400 following the published approach. If I'm a minute out, then turn one minute, then back one minute, let's just say 2500/3 minutes = easy 850 fpm.

It's fun to hand fly the thing, and it's fun to figure these things out. There is no pause when online, you must keep "flying the plane" while figuring these things out.

Also, just doing things like timing at the FAF, dropping the gear, etc. Visibility was 3 miles in snow, it was hard to make out the runway at first. It's always fun when an approach goes well, even if it's "fake".

So anyway, blah blah blah... online flight simming has been really fun and thought-provoking for me. I'd rather be doing the real thing, but in its absence, this is fun.
 
StevieTimes said:
I have not been able to fly as much as I'd like this winter. A couple of nights ago, I looked online and saw VATSIM had center, approach, and tower for the Grand Forks, ND area. So I thought maybe I'd fly to Grand Forks.

I looked at the winds aloft, checked METARs, did some rough calculations, "filed a flight plan" (with VATSIM), and got my clearance.

Switched to CTAF, announced, got airborne, over to center, cleared to proceed on course (from initial heading of 360).

Requested VOR RWY 17R approach, cleared to cross the grand forks VOR at or above 2,400, and also cleared for the approach. I was ten miles out from the VOR.

http://www.aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1301/05187V17R.PDF

Here is one of the cool parts of simming where you have "ATC": it makes you think about situations that you wouldn't normally think about just studying. Like that moment; when to descend. The VOR to 17R there says you can descend to 2,400 once past BLITS. I'm already cleared to cross the VOR (5 miles away from BLITS) at or above 2,400.

Do I start my descent before the VOR? How much more? What should my rate of descent be? If I'm leaving an assigned altitude when not on a published portion of the approach, I'll need to tell ATC.

"Fortunately", I was only cruising at 5,000 in a Cessna 182 RG. I could easily wait for BLITS, and lose the altitude down to 2,400 following the published approach. If I'm a minute out, then turn one minute, then back one minute, let's just say 2500/3 minutes = easy 850 fpm.

It's fun to hand fly the thing, and it's fun to figure these things out. There is no pause when online, you must keep "flying the plane" while figuring these things out.

Also, just doing things like timing at the FAF, dropping the gear, etc. Visibility was 3 miles in snow, it was hard to make out the runway at first. It's always fun when an approach goes well, even if it's "fake".

So anyway, blah blah blah... online flight simming has been really fun and thought-provoking for me. I'd rather be doing the real thing, but in its absence, this is fun.
Click to expand...

Good stuff to think about, I doubt you would get that crossing clearance and if I did I wouldn't accept it. 2400 is below the MSA. That crossing clearance would mean you could descend immediately to 2400 10 miles from the VOR or 15 from BLITS. Better to cross at 2700 and descend to 2400 on a published segment.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Good stuff to think about, I doubt you would get that crossing clearance and if I did I wouldn't accept it. 2400 is below the MSA. That crossing clearance would mean you could descend immediately to 2400 10 miles from the VOR or 15 from BLITS. Better to cross at 2700 and descend to 2400 on a published segment.
Click to expand...
I'm probably mis-remembering the clearance! :)

I enjoyed the mental exercise, it made me think. I'm out of currency with my IFR, I need to go up and do some approaches with an instructor/safety pilot.

Saaaay, if you weren't going to accept it, and just descend 2,700 (MSA in that area), how would you say it? Just "Cessna (blah), leaving 5,000, descending 2,700"?
 
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