Procedure NA at night?

S Joslin

S Joslin

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S Joslin
Okay IFR gurus, I have a question...

Why would this approach (RNAV GPS Rwy 14 @ KCRS) be "NA at night"?:
http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1309/pdf/05998R14.PDF

When this approach (NDB Rwy 14 @ KCRS) states "When VGSI inop, procedure NA at night":
http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1309/pdf/05998N14.PDF

The GPS approach appears to be an overlay of the NDB approach. Is this a typo? Especially considering that the last cycle of approach plates, which expired in Jun 2013, states "When VGSI inop, procedure NA at night" for the RNAV GPS Rwy 14 @ KCRS.

What say you?
 
S Joslin said:
Okay IFR gurus, I have a question...

Why would this approach (RNAV GPS Rwy 14 @ KCRS) be "NA at night"?:
http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1309/pdf/05998R14.PDF

When this approach (NDB Rwy 14 @ KCRS) states "When VGSI inop, procedure NA at night":
http://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1309/pdf/05998N14.PDF

The GPS approach appears to be an overlay of the NDB approach. Is this a typo? Especially considering that the last cycle of approach plates, which expired in Jun 2013, states "When VGSI inop, procedure NA at night" for the RNAV GPS Rwy 14 @ KCRS.

What say you?
Click to expand...

The GPS and RNAV IAPs serve the same runway, but one it not an overlay of the other.

As far as the notes are concerned the FAA is going through a real crisis on this one ever since the Lear Jet hit the trees on approach.

I suspect the BHM UPS accident may even add to the proliferation of notes.

As seemingly irrelevant as these notes may seem, they are regulatory.
 
I think the simple answer is probably just that the NDB hasn't been updated in a couple of years (Jan 2011) while the RNAV is much more recent (Aug 2013). I suspect if they updated the NDB approach, it would also now say "NA at night".
 
RussR said:
I think the simple answer is probably just that the NDB hasn't been updated in a couple of years (Jan 2011) while the RNAV is much more recent (Aug 2013). I suspect if they updated the NDB approach, it would also now say "NA at night".
Click to expand...

There have been slews of these NOTAMs coming through.

They can't even use the VGSI to mitigate visual segment 20:1 penetrations unless they obtain specific approval, runway end by runway end, from AFS. I suspect AFS is not granting that mitigation for NDB approaches.
 
Bottom line is there's unlit stuff out there you might hit if you try doing what they prohibited. The reason it wasn't prohibited originally is folks were unaware of a hole in the approach approval/monitoring process regarding some of these problems. When the Lear hit the trees, they figured out what they had been missing, and when they checked, lots of airports/approaches had the same problem that led to the Lear accident. So, lots of new "don't do this in the dark" restrictions until they fix the problems at each airport/approach.
 
you've got 2 towers, one before and one after. The one on approach is only 124' below mda. I would thing that might be a good reason. Of course, this is probably what you all are referring to in your remarks: "Lear hit the trees."
 
navigator44 said:
you've got 2 towers, one before and one after. The one on approach is only 124' below mda. I would thing that might be a good reason. Of course, this is probably what you all are referring to in your remarks: "Lear hit the trees."
Click to expand...

More often than not it's trees in the TERPS visual segment that penetrate the 19:1. The higher the approach category authorized, the larger the visual segment.

That tower has to be either in the TERPS secondary or not at all. 250' is the minimum obstacle clearance in the primary areas of the final approach segment.
 
Ron Levy said:
Bottom line is there's unlit stuff out there you might hit if you try doing what they prohibited. The reason it wasn't prohibited originally is folks were unaware of a hole in the approach approval/monitoring process regarding some of these problems. When the Lear hit the trees, they figured out what they had been missing, and when they checked, lots of airports/approaches had the same problem that led to the Lear accident. So, lots of new "don't do this in the dark" restrictions until they fix the problems at each airport/approach.
Click to expand...

Until or if they fix the problem. Often, people don't like their trees chopped down for the nearby airport they also may not like. :)
 
It could be something stupid as well.

10 years ago, hurricane Isabel came through and knocked out the power to a small local airport (Actually, power was out damn near everywhere.)

Soon after that, the approaches (VOR, RNAV) showed "NA at night."

Some investigating was done and it was determined that the FAA test flew the approaches while the power was still down.

A few more phone calls and they re flew the approach and all was well again.
 
VA Aviator said:
It could be something stupid as well.

10 years ago, hurricane Isabel came through and knocked out the power to a small local airport (Actually, power was out damn near everywhere.)

Soon after that, the approaches (VOR, RNAV) showed "NA at night."

Some investigating was done and it was determined that the FAA test flew the approaches while the power was still down.

A few more phone calls and they re flew the approach and all was well again.
Click to expand...

Nope. Not with two different notes that fit a national program now in progress.
 
I think Aspen has such a notation, or did. Seems like I remember something about a minor accident of some kind after dark, but maybe not.
 
wabower said:
I think Aspen has such a notation, or did. Seems like I remember something about a minor accident of some kind after dark, but maybe not.
Click to expand...

Are you thinking about the Gulfstream that crashed almost on the airport and killed a bunch of folks?

That approach was not authorized at night at the time.
 
Come to think of it, yeah, that's it. ;)

I was/am unfortunately very familiar with much of the background of that event. Another one that shouldn't have happened but did, and for all the wrong reasons.

aterpster said:
Are you thinking about the Gulfstream that crashed almost on the airport and killed a bunch of folks?

That approach was not authorized at night at the time.
Click to expand...
 
The RNAV approach into my home base is NA at night too, since the beginning of 2013. Several of us have calls in to the airport manager to get an idea of what is going to be done about it, and when. Basically the answer is always "I don't know", or variations thereof. I strongly suspect the issue is trees and infrastructure (most importantly, power lines along the approach path) that the county has no authority or leverage to do anything about, but again, the airport manager isn't forthcoming to either confirm or refute that theory.
 
azure said:
The RNAV approach into my home base is NA at night too, since the beginning of 2013. Several of us have calls in to the airport manager to get an idea of what is going to be done about it, and when. Basically the answer is always "I don't know", or variations thereof. I strongly suspect the issue is trees and infrastructure (most importantly, power lines along the approach path) that the county has no authority or leverage to do anything about, but again, the airport manager isn't forthcoming to either confirm or refute that theory.
Click to expand...

Airport managers often are in their own world.
 
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