problems

Well if what you say is true than the FBO committed insurance fraud. It's a good time to be lawyering up with someone good. I wouldn't go down without a hell of a fight - but that's just me.
 
I'm surprised the insurance company would pay for corrosion when it obviously wasn't caused by a prop strike. In my experience they try hard not to pay for things that are wrong with the engine if they don't think it was caused by the prop strike.
 
Unregistered said:
Update from original poster.

The joy just keeps coming. To recap: a year ago while taxiing an airplane, I struck a bush next to the taxiway. I scratched a wingtip. After that, and unbeknownst to me because no one told me anything, the owner opted for an engine inspection, even though there was no damage to the airplane beyond a few scratches, and according to the aviation attorney I have since hired, according to the engine manufacturer and the FAA, what I did was not a prop strike. But anyway, inspection happened (no one told me), the mechanic who pulled it out said the engine was so riddled with corrosion that the airplane should not have been flying. So now they're calling it a prop strike so insurance will pay for a new engine. Insurance paid. Now insurance company is threatening to sue me for entire costs (let me remind you, the airplane has only superficial scratches). I have since learned from my attorney that my worst mistake was admitting I hit a bush. It never occurred to me to lie, but apparently I should have made something up, like maybe a small animal ran in front of me, and I swerved. So, I have also been legally advised that it is much easier for the insurance company to prove I was negligent (since I admitted hitting a bush), than for me to prove that I was not. I have also learned to never admit anything without consulting an attorney first.

I have new utter loathing of insurance companies. I've been told there is no way to get out of this without paying many thousands. And the industry wonders why pilots quit, when a scratched wingtip ends up costing $10,000.
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I am a non-attorney spokesman...

If the FBO thought they had a claim against you, they would contact you, or their insurance company would. You didn't tell us that. All of a sudden, you've had to hire an "aviation attorney" for supposedly hitting a bush with the wing tip.

What made you lawyer up? Hateful letter from the FBO? Hateful letter from the FBO's insurance company?

You don't even need a special aviation attorney for a claim like this. Any attorney can write a demand letter, you tell them to pound sand or you just ignore it. If it goes to the next stage, let them file suit against you. That's when you hire an attorney to answer the suit. Find out how many other people they rented that plane to after you supposedly dinged in discovery.

My mom was an Air Force wife. My dad was an Air Force husband. I don't know if you're the male or female half of your couple, I'm not sure that really matters any more. My dad intended to be a career USAF officer. He found out that being a fighter interceptor pilot wasn't what he thought it would be, in spite of signing up for ROTC when he was a high school freshman. My mom suffered through having the squadron commander tell her how important it was that she cooked her pilot husband a good breakfast every morning. That was when there were a lot of training exercise crashes. She still has friends whose husbands died in T-33 crashes, F-86 crashes, F-102 crashes and F-106 crashes. The Air Force moms would see the big fireball and know that one of their husbands bit it. They would send some squadron Ops guy and whatever padre they had available in a gray Chevy to deliver the bad news. Later it was dark blue Fords. After quite a while in the UP of Michigan, they jointly said hell with it, and made a new life for themselves. I hope you can do that, too.
 
Trapper John said:
My mom was an Air Force wife. My dad was an Air Force husband. I don't know if you're the male or female half of your couple, I'm not sure that really matters any more. My dad intended to be a career USAF officer. He found out that being a fighter interceptor pilot wasn't what he thought it would be, in spite of signing up for ROTC when he was a high school freshman. My mom suffered through having the squadron commander tell her how important it was that she cooked her pilot husband a good breakfast every morning. That was when there were a lot of training exercise crashes. She still has friends whose husbands died in T-33 crashes, F-86 crashes, F-102 crashes and F-106 crashes. The Air Force moms would see the big fireball and know that one of their husbands bit it. They would send some squadron Ops guy and whatever padre they had available in a gray Chevy to deliver the bad news. Later it was dark blue Fords. After quite a while in the UP of Michigan, they jointly said hell with it, and made a new life for themselves. I hope you can do that, too.
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I'm confused. Is the OP in this thread the same person who is the unhappy military wife in the other thread?
 
Everskyward said:
I'm confused. Is the OP in this thread the same person who is the unhappy military wife in the other thread?
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Oops! I guess I got this person confused with the other unregistered poster. Doesn't make my free advice any less valuable, does it? I am a Clinique field tester after all, if that makes any difference!
 
The owner of the flight school lied to my face repeatedly. I hope he drops dead. I almost forgot to mention the best part. The owner of the airplane is a sleazy older man (and an attorney, btw), who hit on me, and did not take rejection well. Yeah, obese 60 year olds thrill me. I can't make this crap up. I've been idly wondering about telling him to pay the insurance back or I'll tell his wife all the sleazy things he said to me.


Trapper John said:
I am a non-attorney spokesman...

What made you lawyer up? Hateful letter from the FBO? Hateful letter from the FBO's insurance company?
Click to expand...
Threatening letters from the insurance company's attorney.

You don't even need a special aviation attorney for a claim like this. Any attorney can write a demand letter, you tell them to pound sand or you just ignore it. If it goes to the next stage, let them file suit against you. That's when you hire an attorney to answer the suit. Find out how many other people they rented that plane to after you supposedly dinged in discovery.
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I've been legally advised that legal bills would likely cost more than paying a settlement. Again, I made the mistake of admitting I hit a bush.

My mom was an Air Force wife. My dad was an Air Force husband. I don't know if you're the male or female half of your couple, I'm not sure that really matters any more. My dad intended to be a career USAF officer. He found out that being a fighter interceptor pilot wasn't what he thought it would be, in spite of signing up for ROTC when he was a high school freshman. My mom suffered through having the squadron commander tell her how important it was that she cooked her pilot husband a good breakfast every morning. That was when there were a lot of training exercise crashes. She still has friends whose husbands died in T-33 crashes, F-86 crashes, F-102 crashes and F-106 crashes. The Air Force moms would see the big fireball and know that one of their husbands bit it. They would send some squadron Ops guy and whatever padre they had available in a gray Chevy to deliver the bad news. Later it was dark blue Fords. After quite a while in the UP of Michigan, they jointly said hell with it, and made a new life for themselves. I hope you can do that, too.
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My father was an Air Force pilot, flying F-100s. Still alive today, almost 75, still flies.

No I'm not the other poster.
 
Unregistered said:
The owner of the flight school lied to my face repeatedly. I hope he drops dead. I almost forgot to mention the best part. The owner of the airplane is a sleazy older man (and an attorney, btw), who hit on me, and did not take rejection well. Yeah, obese 60 year olds thrill me. I can't make this crap up. I've been idly wondering about telling him to pay the insurance back or I'll tell his wife all the sleazy things he said to me.
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"I am a non-attorney spokesman." Wait until you get served. Until then, ignore them. There is no upside to responding to a fishing letter from some schmuck with a letterhead.

Threatening letters from the insurance company's attorney.
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"I am a non-attorney spokesman." Until you're served, ignore them.

I've been legally advised that legal bills would likely cost more than paying a settlement. Again, I made the mistake of admitting I hit a bush.
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"I am a non-attorney spokesman." You hired the wrong attorney. Find another one. There a gazillions out there. Don't hire another one until you get served. Don't pay a retainer on an initial meeting, either.

My father was an Air Force pilot, flying F-100s. Still alive today, almost 75, still flies.
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Cool beans.

No I'm not the other poster.
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Sorry 'bout that. Confused you with someone else.
 
Trapper John said:
"I am a non-attorney spokesman." Wait until you get served. Until then, ignore them. There is no upside to responding to a fishing letter from some schmuck with a letterhead.

"I am a non-attorney spokesman." Until you're served, ignore them.

"I am a non-attorney spokesman." You hired the wrong attorney. Find another one. There a gazillions out there. Don't hire another one until you get served. Don't pay a retainer on an initial meeting, either.
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I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, but do agree with most of the above advice. Remember it also costs them to bring legal action, and if the amount is in the $10k range, I imagine they'll try intimidation a few times first. Much cheaper.

I'm assuming the mechanic is a party to the alleged fraud and is willing to commit perjury? (Can't imagine this going very far if that weren't the case!)

Consider the evidence and witnesses you could bring up in a legal action to dispute their factual claims and write that all down if you haven't already. It'll help later. Don't share it with anyone except your lawyer.
 
Also, for grins, search the N number on FlightAware and see if there were any flights shortly after your chat with the plant life. Never know what you'll find.
 
Tell him you're going public with the sexual harassment action, then going after his fat ass with a RICCO suit as well as insurance fraud. If they want to play dirty and you're going to spend some money, get a pound of flesh for your trouble.
 
Unregistered said:
Update from original poster.

The joy just keeps coming. To recap: a year ago while taxiing an airplane, I struck a bush next to the taxiway. I scratched a wingtip. After that, and unbeknownst to me because no one told me anything, the owner opted for an engine inspection, even though there was no damage to the airplane beyond a few scratches, and according to the aviation attorney I have since hired, according to the engine manufacturer and the FAA, what I did was not a prop strike. But anyway, inspection happened (no one told me), the mechanic who pulled it out said the engine was so riddled with corrosion that the airplane should not have been flying. So now they're calling it a prop strike so insurance will pay for a new engine. Insurance paid. Now insurance company is threatening to sue me for entire costs (let me remind you, the airplane has only superficial scratches).
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Sure there's a fix for this. You needed to have carried renter's insurance. We keep telling students this and they keep blowing it off.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Just out of curiosity, how far was the bush from the taxiway centerline? The airport owner has a responsiblity to maintain an object free area that, for the smallest airports, extends 44.5 feet from the centerline. (AC 150/5300-13) If the airport is designed to handle larger than design group I airplanes, that is, larger than airplanes with less than 49-foot wingspan, then the bush had to be even farther out. (If the airport has an ALP you can look there to find what design group category it is.)

This won't get the 709 ride off your back, but it might get the instructor off your case if the airport was not being maintained to standards.
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Especially if that turd of a CFI was assigned to grounds maintenance. Maybe that bush was his pride n joy and he was 'hiding' it in broad daylight.
 
Jim Logajan said:
I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, but do agree with most of the above advice. Remember it also costs them to bring legal action, and if the amount is in the $10k range, I imagine they'll try intimidation a few times first. Much cheaper.
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I think they'll have a tough time proving that the bush strike was the cause of the damage. I'm pretty sure that the reason for a tear down after a prop strike is to inspect the crank. Since this did not qualify as a prop strike per the FAA or the engine manufacturer, the tear down can only be justified as a precaution. If they didn't find any damage to the crank, I don't see how they can ask for any damages from the OP.

I think OP should offer to pay to repaint the prop tips, as the paint it probably the only thing damaged during the incident.
 
Unregistered said:
I have since learned from my attorney that my worst mistake was admitting I hit a bush. It never occurred to me to lie, but apparently I should have made something up, like maybe a small animal ran in front of me, and I swerved.
Click to expand...
If your attorney told you that last part, your attorney is an idiot looking for disbarment, so I doubt that's what s/he said.

So, I have also been legally advised that it is much easier for the insurance company to prove I was negligent (since I admitted hitting a bush), than for me to prove that I was not. I have also learned to never admit anything without consulting an attorney first.
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If the reason for the overhaul is corrosion, not damage due to the bush-strike, the insurance company will not have much of a case against you. The operative phrase is "proximate cause." A good attorney should not have much trouble defending you on that.

I have new utter loathing of insurance companies. I've been told there is no way to get out of this without paying many thousands. And the industry wonders why pilots quit, when a scratched wingtip ends up costing $10,000.
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If it's sympathy you want, you won't get it from me. With legal matters like this, it's like the old Fram oil filter commercial -- you can pay a little now, or you can pay a lot later. You chose not to pay the "little" then, and now it's "later." If you had non-owned ("renter's") aircraft insurance, none of this would be costing you a dime. You had that option, you chose not to exercise it, and now you pay the price for your penny-wise/pound-foolish decision.
 
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Ron Levy said:
If it's sympathy you want, you won't get it from me. If you had non-owned ("renter's") aircraft insurance, none of this would be costing you a dime. You had that option, you chose not to exercise it, and now you pay the price for your penny-wise/pound-foolish decision.
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I've lost track of who is who, here. But that is kind of a harsh statement. It is only an option if you KNOW it is an option. Not too many instructors include insurance issues in their lesson plans, IME.
 
wabower said:
Tell him you're going public with the sexual harassment action, then going after his fat ass with a RICCO suit as well as insurance fraud.
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That's the job of the US or State's Attorney, not individuals. You'd have to go to them with this story, and convince them that there's a "pattern of racketeering activity" here, and I think they would politely tell you that what you have is merely a civil matter between you, the insurance company, and the owner.

Also, it's not easy to find the necessary two acts from the following laundry list (courtesy of Wikipedia) for a RICO case in this story.

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Insurance fraud may be there, but I don't see the second act. Nor do I see the "enterprise" -- unless there are more cases like yours, there is no pattern of criminal behavior.
 
Shapiro will make them think he can make it stick. He'll start by filing a very public civil suit and go from there. As the attorneys like to say, "if there's going to be some misery from this deal, lets be sure we spread it around over a big a group as possible."

Ron Levy said:
That's the job of the US or State's Attorney, not individuals. You'd have to go to them with this story, and convince them that there's a "pattern of racketeering activity" here, and I think they would politely tell you that what you have is merely a civil matter between you, the insurance company, and the owner.

Also, it's not easy to find the necessary two acts from the following laundry list (courtesy of Wikipedia) for a RICO case in this story.

Insurance fraud may be there, but I don't see the second act. Nor do I see the "enterprise" -- unless there are more cases like yours, there is no pattern of criminal behavior.
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Ron Levy said:
If it's sympathy you want, you won't get it from me. With legal matters like this, it's like the old Fram oil filter commercial -- you can pay a little now, or you can pay a lot later. You chose not to pay the "little" then, and now it's "later." If you had non-owned ("renter's") aircraft insurance, none of this would be costing you a dime. You had that option, you chose not to exercise it, and now you pay the price for your penny-wise/pound-foolish decision.
Click to expand...

Not one person at that flight school ever mentioned renter's insurance. Not the instructor, not the owner, no one. After this incident, I was led to believe by the owner that I was covered by their insurance and told repeatedly not to worry about it. Yes, I learned the hard expensive way to have renter's insurance. Thanks for pointing that out to me after the fact. How can I choose not to exercise if I don't know it exists. Didn't I mention brand new pilot? So helpful, thanks.
 
Dunno, but I've been watching him work on cases for 20+ years that were supposed to be unwinnable. He doesn't win them all, but he wins a bunch of them, and even when he loses the winners aren't sure whether or not they really won after all. He's the easiest guy in town to do a deal with and great fun on the golf course, but a junk-yard dog when the fight starts.

Ron Levy said:
Oh. The only "Shapiro" I think of with just that last name is the guy in "Stalag 17" whose car was repo'd while he was a POW. Maybe he went to law school after the war ended...
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Ron Levy said:
You chose not to pay the "little" then, and now it's "later." If you had non-owned ("renter's") aircraft insurance, none of this would be costing you a dime. You had that option, you chose not to exercise it, and now you pay the price for your penny-wise/pound-foolish decision.
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Ron - have you priced renters insurance lately? I got checked out on the Remos & GOBOSH. With the cherokee and almost 800 hours PIC, I'm covered for an LSA but not an E-LSA, and only up to the amount of my current coverage. So, for a $125K LSA, and the $35K on my cherokee, I'm still on the hook for $90K of damages. It just wasn't worth it.

I also looked into renters insurance for the LSA - that was an additional $1100. Again, just not worth it when I already have an airplane. So the schools lose a potential renter who really likes the LSAs, and also lose a potential student for the commercial, since I have to use their aircraft.

My complaint is the oft misleading info in the ads. The impression you get is renters insurance is in the neighborhood of a couple hundred $$. Maybe for a 152 beater, but not the LSAs.
 
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Ron Levy said:
If it's sympathy you want, you won't get it from me. With legal matters like this, it's like the old Fram oil filter commercial -- you can pay a little now, or you can pay a lot later. You chose not to pay the "little" then, and now it's "later." If you had non-owned ("renter's") aircraft insurance, none of this would be costing you a dime. You had that option, you chose not to exercise it, and now you pay the price for your penny-wise/pound-foolish decision.
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I disagree. Renter's (non-owned) insurance is not intended to be used to keep you safe from fraud. Its supposed to be used when you actually cause damage.

To say anything else would be admitting that throwing 100% blame on the uninsured is the correct way to handle these issues.

Should she have insurance? Probably, but not to protect from unscrupulous FBO owners.
 
I agree with Wayne and Jesse. Fight this. Don't go down without a fight.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I agree with Wayne and Jesse. Fight this. Don't go down without a fight.
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At least mention to the insurance company that you are surprised that they don't have an issue with a fradulant claim. Usually they are less than pleased with that sort of thing...
 
SkyHog said:
I disagree. Renter's (non-owned) insurance is not intended to be used to keep you safe from fraud. Its supposed to be used when you actually cause damage.

To say anything else would be admitting that throwing 100% blame on the uninsured is the correct way to handle these issues.

Should she have insurance? Probably, but not to protect from unscrupulous FBO owners.
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Perhaps, but remember that the protection provided by a policy is not only to pay for damages (both kinds) but also their duty to defend you in court up to policy limits.
 
murphey said:
I also looked into renters insurance for the LSA - that was an additional $1100. Again, just not worth it when I already have an airplane. So the schools lose a potential renter who really likes the LSAs, and also lose a potential student for the commercial, since I have to use their aircraft.
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Check your insurance policy. My policy covers me when I "rent" planes that aren't my own. I was surprised when I finally read my policy and found that little tidbit.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you had non-owned ("renter's") aircraft insurance, none of this would be costing you a dime. You had that option, you chose not to exercise it, and now you pay the price for your penny-wise/pound-foolish decision.
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If a school or instructor claims that a renter is already covered, it would have been silly to pay what appears to be a redundant fee.

At my airfield one firm will not even rent unless the renter proves they have adequate renter's insurance. The other firm claims "You are insured in [our] aircraft for rental and student pilot operations (liability and damage)."

Your attitude appears to be "screw naive student pilots - they shouldn't be doing this if they expect schools to teach them anything other than airmanship."

But one of the alphabet groups (AOPA?) recently determined that schools are already doing a poor job with student handling. Attitudes like yours that are sympathetic to liars, mercenary business tactics, and insurance fraud get little sympathy from me.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Check your insurance policy. My policy covers me when I "rent" planes that aren't my own. I was surprised when I finally read my policy and found that little tidbit.
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You missed the first part of my comment - I'm covered when I rent but only up to the limit of my policy, and I quote from my broker

"The policy calls for a standard airworthiness (in which LSAs are included), 12,500 lbs or less max gross, and 7 seats or fewer. There has been a change since I last looked at this part of Phoenix's policy: A $1000 not-in-motion and $5000 in-motion deductible would apply to a non-owned aircraft loss. So, in essence, you would have $30,000 available for a non-owned aircraft physical damage claim."

As I interpret this, on a $125K LSA, I'm covered for $30K but the other $95K is my responsibility.
 
murphey said:
You missed the first part of my comment - I'm covered when I rent but only up to the limit of my policy, and I quote from my broker

"The policy calls for a standard airworthiness (in which LSAs are included), 12,500 lbs or less max gross, and 7 seats or fewer. There has been a change since I last looked at this part of Phoenix's policy: A $1000 not-in-motion and $5000 in-motion deductible would apply to a non-owned aircraft loss. So, in essence, you would have $30,000 available for a non-owned aircraft physical damage claim."

As I interpret this, on a $125K LSA, I'm covered for $30K but the other $95K is my responsibility.
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Yes, IF you destroy it and IF it's due soley to YOUR negligence. What you get in addition to the coverage is a duty to defend you if it wasn't YOUR negligence that caused the damage.

If the OP had even $1000 of hull coverage, the renters insurance would have been on the hook to defend her against any suit unless she admitted the liability. Only AFTER losing the suit would they cough up the $1000 and leave her on the hook for the rest. In most states they are NOT allowed to pay off the 1000 as a settlement and walk away unless the insured consents.

All of that said, based on what's been reported here, I don't believe there's a case to be made against the OP, and that she should instruct her attorney to respond saying "my actions could not have caused the damage you are alleging - see you in court".

Of course, as Paul Harvey would say, we haven't heard "The Rest of The Story".
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
I've lost track of who is who, here. But that is kind of a harsh statement. It is only an option if you KNOW it is an option. Not too many instructors include insurance issues in their lesson plans, IME.
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+1 -- I don't care if the student had insurance or not, it's not required. What I do care about is the FBO's insurance fraud and dickhole attitude.

If it were me, insurance or not, I'd work out a deal with the owner to fix the damage I caused. Taking responsibility for ones actions makes life much easier.

If the owner tried to screw me over like in this story -- I'd be hitting them pretty hard via every medium I could dream up (legally). Just having renters insurance wouldn't cause me to use it. It's a total BS claim that I wouldn't want my name anywhere near.

The fact of the matter is, in flight instruction, sometimes metal can be bent or paint scraped. **** happens. People that dream otherwise need to find themselves a new business.
 
SkyHog said:
I disagree. Renter's (non-owned) insurance is not intended to be used to keep you safe from fraud. Its supposed to be used when you actually cause damage.
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The policy provides legal defense as well as paying for damage, so that covers the fraud issue, and in any event, the OP did cause damage.
 
Jim Logajan said:
If a school or instructor claims that a renter is already covered, it would have been silly to pay what appears to be a redundant fee.
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We're not talking about children here, we're talking about theoretically responsible adults being given custody and control of a $100K vehicle. If such a person trusts the undocumented word of the provider that the renter is already covered, the renter exhibits naivete that is beyond reasonability.
 
Ron Levy said:
My CFI policy costs $1300/year. I can't afford not to have it.
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I agree that you need to have the insurance based on your CFI activities. But in my case, flying the LSA is entirely optional since I already have an airplane. Needing the additional insurance is another deterrent to renting one.
 
murphey said:
I agree that you need to have the insurance based on your CFI activities. But in my case, flying the LSA is entirely optional since I already have an airplane. Needing the additional insurance is another deterrent to renting one.
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Fine -- then don't rent. But if you do, and you bend it, don't complain about the out-of-pocket cost of your legal defense.
 
Ron Levy said:
Fine -- then don't rent. But if you do, and you bend it, don't complain about the out-of-pocket cost of your legal defense.
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Whatever Ron. Trying to put any blame on the renter for the FBO claiming that a scratched wing means a new engine which means the insurance company wants the renter to pay for it ...that's just ridiculous.

Yeah rental insurance would be nice. But the issue here isn't the insurance. It's the fraud.
 
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