Privatize ATC?

So again I ask, what's the point? You take one bureaucracy and replace it with two. One to oversee the non-profit and one to run it.
Instead of being a purely governmental agency that is affected by the political whims of the day, it is run by people in the aviation industry. Government has a voice, but only a small one in comparison to the US system. That is not to say that non-governmental agencies don't have their own bureaucracies, but I am not so quick to dismiss the idea. It would depend on the details.
 
Instead of being a purely governmental agency that is affected by the political whims of the day, it is run by people in the aviation industry. Government has a voice, but only a small one in comparison to the US system. That is not to say that non-governmental agencies don't have their own bureaucracies, but I am not so quick to dismiss the idea. It would depend on the details.

Very much so. The "coalition" of industry "experts" brought us a new definition of "slow flight" that hasn't been resolved yet. Perhaps a new expert group can give us a new definition of "separation"?

Like I said before, I think we'll see it happen in my lifetime, but it won't add to safety nor will it be cheaper. It'll just be something populist to do, kinda like watching a chicken run around the yard with its head cut off.

So looking forward to the New and Improved ATC with "industry experts" making up new ways to do stuff we've known how to do since the 50s on tables with little airplane models being pushed around on them. "Keep these from touching each other."

Exciting times. LOL.
 
Some perspective from a current ATCer:

Privatization is a horrible idea. For those that like to tout the Canadian model as one we can emulate here in the US, just remember; no other country has the volume of traffic nor the complexity of airspace that the United States has. For example, in 2014, ATL did more aircraft operations than YYZ and CDG combined. New York is THE single most congested and complex airspace in the world. Having actually read the bill (H.R. 4441), it baffles me as to why NATCA supported this. It allows the airlines to essentially take complete control of the air traffic system. The make-up of the board of directors was an 11-member board, of which 5 were airline representatives, one Chairman of the Board, and a Secretary of Transportation. Assuming the latter two came from the airline industry, they have the potential of up to 7 seats at the table. This has the potential of completely destroying GA, and puts ATC in a position to kowtow to the airlines demands. Meanwhile, NBAA has two seats, and AOPA and NATCA each with one. Seems like a very lopsided makeup if you ask me.

Regarding the Federal Contract Tower (FCT) program, you already see what will happen if the entire system is privatized. Many contract towers are busier than FAA towers, but they are essentially operating with a skeleton crew. The typical makeup of FCT personnel is maybe one opener at 6 am, another in the late morning maybe around 9 or 10 am, an afternoon at 12 or 1 and maybe a closer at 2 or 3. That's it. Do you really want a tower that does 160,000 ops/ year only being manned by 4 people? It is difficult to get vacation and if they take one sick hit, the whole facility suffers. Contract controllers are overworked and underpaid. The only appear as safe because in many cases, incidents are not being reported to management or the FAA. NATCA has recently rolled out the AT-SAP program to the FCT's, so we may see issues start to come to the surface, but until we know, in many cases, more incidents occur at FCTs (See the midair at SDM last year as an example of the staffing situation).

The scariest part of the bill is that it allows this "Corporation" to consolidate and close facilities as they see fit to meet the needs. No where does it lay out any sort of protections or guarantees for the controllers who are unwillingly displaced or suddenly find themselves in the unemployment line.

The bill is not at all clear how this new system will be funded. User fees are outlined, but there are a number of exceptions. I believe one of them was saying that any aircraft flying under a callsign would be charged a fee, but GA aircraft would not. Granted I could be wrong on the wording, as I do not have the bill in front of me, but what is stopping American or United from finding a loophole and filing under a November callsign to get around the charges? If that's the case, how much money will really be going to the Corporation?

Air Traffic Control is a perfect example of how effective a government service can work if you allow it to. We don't need to latest technology to do our jobs. We've been doing it safely for 70+ years. We take pride in our jobs. Leave it alone.
 
Part of this is airline driven, and they have made no secret of the idea that they want to reduce GA, especially private jets both to improve their access to airspace and to push more high-value customers onto their airlines.
 
Part of this is airline driven, and they have made no secret of the idea that they want to reduce GA, especially private jets both to improve their access to airspace and to push more high-value customers onto their airlines.
It sounds like they haven't realized that reducing GA would eventually make it harder to find pilots with the required 1500 hours.
 
It sounds like they haven't realized that reducing GA would eventually make it harder to find pilots with the required 1500 hours.
They're less concerned about small GA (other than us clogging "their" airspace) than they are about large GA and turbines. And I'd expect that waivers could be obtained at some point for ab initio training programs like some foreign carriers use now (and JetBlue recently started).

If you cut large private jets, those pilots there need to go somewhere... and the airlines might be an alternative (absent the union seniority rules).
 
They're less concerned about small GA (other than us clogging "their" airspace) than they are about large GA and turbines. And I'd expect that waivers could be obtained at some point for ab initio training programs like some foreign carriers use now (and JetBlue recently started).

Since the 1500-hour rule came from Congress, wouldn't any waivers have to come from them as well? I'm not convinced that they would buy into that.

If you cut large private jets, those pilots there need to go somewhere... and the airlines might be an alternative (absent the union seniority rules).

That would only work for a while.
 
Since the 1500-hour rule came from Congress, wouldn't any waivers have to come from them as well? I'm not convinced that they would buy into that.

Depends on how the underlying legislation is written. Often the laws contain the ability to grant limited exceptions. I have not read the final bill.

Also consider the the Hill and the Administration will all be of the same party, and will tend to be friendly to business interests.

If the JetBlue experiment works out, I think a case can be made for either an exception or a change in the law.
 
If the JetBlue experiment works out, I think a case can be made for either an exception or a change in the law.
It seems to me that it would take a long time to gather enough accident data to determine whether JetBlue's program deals with the safety concerns that led to the 1500-hour rule.
 
Instead of being a purely governmental agency that is affected by the political whims of the day, it is run by people in the aviation industry. Government has a voice, but only a small one in comparison to the US system. That is not to say that non-governmental agencies don't have their own bureaucracies, but I am not so quick to dismiss the idea. It would depend on the details.

Who are the people in the aviation industry able to run ATC?
 
Its like toll roads. Personally I hate them. Better to just pay fuel tax and have the govt build the roads. Toll free passage for all. Reason they don't? Oil lobby and Mafia Toll Companies.
 
Who are the people in the aviation industry able to run ATC?
I think she was talking about the Canadian system, or one modeled on it. If so, then your question would be answered in the third quote box of post #119.
 
Its like toll roads. Personally I hate them. Better to just pay fuel tax and have the govt build the roads. Toll free passage for all. Reason they don't? Oil lobby and Mafia Toll Companies.

The problem I have with taxes is that they have a bad habit of including un-related items in the calculation. Like having a portion of the fuel tax going to support education, etc. At least with toll roads you know what the money is being used for (mostly anyway), and you see the true cost of using the roadways. They also are, in my experience, maintained much better than the typical highway.
 
The problem I have with taxes is that they have a bad habit of including un-related items in the calculation. Like having a portion of the fuel tax going to support education, etc. At least with toll roads you know what the money is being used for (mostly anyway), and you see the true cost of using the roadways. They also are, in my experience, maintained much better than the typical highway.

Maybe in some places but here our tolling company they're selling public land to, is a very very for profit company. Two of our toll roads are the highest cost per mile of anywhere.

It's way out of control here. So much so that CDOT held fake "public comment meetings" about making another lane toll on an existing highway while the gear to do it and all the signage and what not were ordered months before the "public meetings" about whether or not to do it.

Someone is pocketing serious money here. It's eventually going to be found as massively corrupt, I suspect, and people won't be happy and there will be a backlash -- and then the contracts will be binding and politicians will be the only target for a large mob of angry people.
 
Maybe in some places but here our tolling company they're selling public land to, is a very very for profit company. Two of our toll roads are the highest cost per mile of anywhere.

It's way out of control here. So much so that CDOT held fake "public comment meetings" about making another lane toll on an existing highway while the gear to do it and all the signage and what not were ordered months before the "public meetings" about whether or not to do it.

Someone is pocketing serious money here. It's eventually going to be found as massively corrupt, I suspect, and people won't be happy and there will be a backlash -- and then the contracts will be binding and politicians will be the only target for a large mob of angry people.

Oh I don't doubt there is plenty of profit baked in. I just meant in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Pennsylvania where I've driven the toll roads exclusively (E-470 the only turnpike in CO I've driven) the roads are in better shape than the regular highways. So, while the cost per mile may be higher, so is the speed limit (usually) and the condition of the roads/rest stops/etc. It applied to Oklahoma especially, because they are truly awful and funding and building highway infrastructure.
 
Oh I don't doubt there is plenty of profit baked in. I just meant in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Pennsylvania where I've driven the toll roads exclusively (E-470 the only turnpike in CO I've driven) the roads are in better shape than the regular highways. So, while the cost per mile may be higher, so is the speed limit (usually) and the condition of the roads/rest stops/etc. It applied to Oklahoma especially, because they are truly awful and funding and building highway infrastructure.

Agree that many roads are worse than the toll roads. Thing is, road and other taxes haven't gone down any, but the money seems to not be flowing properly to road maintenance -- but it's going somewhere. Best guess around here is when noticing a couple of things...

CDOT has hired away some of the long term well known news media people as their PR team. That can't be cheap.

CDOT is starting up a Communications department of their own. Realize that we have a statewide digital radio system (quite advanced and way ahead of many states) run by the IT groups under the governor's office, and the comment I heard from insiders was...

"So and so is leaving the State Communications group to go to work for CDOT and build *another* operations center and all the Comm gear because... CDOT has money."

People in those jobs don't gravitate toward the broke agencies with no budget.
 
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