private pilot oral exam

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AsjaL

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asjal
Is a three hour oral exam normal?
 
I have heard of oral exams lasting anywhere from 1 hour to nearly 8 hours. It all depends on the examiner and the student.
 
Mine was 2 1/2 hours. I don't think (from what I was told) it's unusual. It certainly varies somewhat by one's doing the examining and how confident and correct the answers are. If you sound unsure, they'll probably dig a little deeper to see what you really know.

John
 
AsjaL said:
Is a three hour oral exam normal?
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I'd say it's a little above the norm for the PPL but not unheard of. Sometimes the DE has a "bad feeling" about a candidate and wants to dig a little deeper than normal and sometimes they're just making sure you get your money's worth. Much more than 3 let alone 8 would be extremely unusual AFaIK for PPL but quite possible for an initial CFI.

IIRC the oral for my PPL lasted a whole 30 minutes and ended with single "make or break" question with a yes/no answer. Fortunately I got it right.
 
AsjaL said:
Is a three hour oral exam normal?
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Measured from when? When you first meet the examiner? Or when the examiner says "The exam starts now" after all the preliminary administrative details are done, application and log have been checked for eligibility, ground rules have been covered, and the fee is paid. If the former, yes; if the latter, no. Typically a PP oral (the quiz itself, not the entire process) takes about an hour and a half, but the entire process from walk-in to "OK, let's go fly" often takes up to three hours.
 
Mine was about 90 minutes of actual exam material, but it went by pretty quick because flying stuff fascinates me and and knew most of it pretty in depth. She was pretty good at digging until she found the limits of what I knew but I deployed the old "shut your mouth as soon as you have answered the question" gambit and kept myself out of trouble.
 
Mine was (substantively) about an hour and a half. More like an extended and very detailed conversation about flying, lots of "tell how you'd approach this" type of stuff. Very collegial, pleasant, and a great learning experience.
 
Generally a 3 hour oral exam means one of three things:

1) The examiner is a real stickler and wants to grill every student
2) The examiner has a bad feeling about the student
3) The examiner is having a good time with the conversation

The longest oral I had was about 2.5 hours for my CP-AMEL-IA. The examiner happened to have been a former 135 owner and had run about 15 Aztecs in his fleet, so probably close to half of that was spent with me asking him questions about Aztecs, and him telling me some of the "gotchas" and tips and tricks that I should know.

That conversation by itself was easily worth my checkride money.
 
Mine was about 2.5 hours not including the paperwork things. Alot on flight planning, operating limitations, airspace, the regs and currency, weather, safety, and the examiner said he included more on the currency and operation of the plane and systems since I own the aircraft and am responsible for its airworthiness. It was a great learning experience.
 
DutchessFlier said:
It was a great learning experience.
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Every oral so far (except my CFI oral) was a great learning experience. The CFI oral was an exercise in frustration and enduring exotic torture techniques.
 
My private oral was fairly short on the ground - the usual ARROW, W&B, what is this symbol, and plan an XC of 50 miles - all XC was pilotage in those days (read the water tower, dummy!)... But in the air he kept peppering me with questions... It was actually fun as I like a challenge - and I could fly the airplane like I was wearing it (Cessna 120)... He owned an FBO that was in competiton with the FBO where I got my sign off for the ride... So, whatever I answered or did was all wrong... "Here, let me show you how you were supposed to do it."... It was never ill intentioned and I took it in stride - and picked up a few tips... He did try to make me forget to call out my checkpoints on the ground during the XC portion -- I didn't and he gave up on that after the second checkpoint and we went and did a couple of stalls and spins, turns around a point, etc. (fun, I could do spins all day)... All told it was close to 3 hours...
Now, let me hasten to say that this was in a technologically simpler age, before many of you were born, so it may not apply to today's complex airspace... There was no GPS, no DME, no flip flop radios, AN ranges were being phased out for that new gadget called a VOR, and controlled airspace as mostly off limits to PPL bug smashers - especially with only a coffeegrinder with three transmit frequencies (plug in crystals) and a simple VOR needle (superhomer)... Doing a VOR cross check to find your position required dialing up each VOR separately, finding the radial, drawing the line on the chart, then dialing up a second VOR, finding that radial and drawing a second line, all while maintaining heading and altitude and traffic scan... Like I said, fun...

denny-o
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Generally a 3 hour oral exam means one of three things:

1) The examiner is a real stickler and wants to grill every student
2) The examiner has a bad feeling about the student
3) The examiner is having a good time with the conversation
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You left one off:

4) Student scored low on the written.

I don't know how they do it now .. but 30+ yrs ago when I took all my
checkrides they'd look at areas you scored low in on the written and key
in on those to be sure you understood the material.

The two I recall being the longest were the combined Comm/Instr and
the initial CFI (helicopter).

I found every checkride to be an educational experience and I picked
up some tips on all of them.

RT
 
"It was a great learning experience" seems like a common theme here which is a bit ironic since IIRC the examiner's guide specifies that the DEs are not supposed to be doing any training. The problem is most DEs just love to teach.
 
gismo said:
"It was a great learning experience" seems like a common theme here which is a bit ironic since IIRC the examiner's guide specifies that the DEs are not supposed to be doing any training. The problem is most DEs just love to teach.
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That's the kind of problem that is good to have. ;)

In the case of people who are very knowledgeable, I've found it difficult to be around them and not learn something.
 
Generally a 3 hour oral exam means one of three things:

1) The examiner is a real stickler and wants to grill every student
2) The examiner has a bad feeling about the student
3) The examiner is having a good time with the conversation
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The answer is #1. The examiner asked every little thing for three hours. In a room and building with no heat. In the dead of winter. After three hours I was shivering and exhausted.

You left one off:

4) Student scored low on the written.
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I scored 93. I mistakenly thought a high score would make the oral exam easier. I was clearly wrong.

The question is..... did you pass?
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I was doing great until the very end, even though I was frozen. Apparently you are not supposed to use flaps in a Cessna in a forward slip. I did all my training in a Cherokee, and then the Cherokee had maintenance issues that the owner refused to fix, so I had to move to a 152. Somehow a forward slip never came up. I was busted for that, and then I was so rattled, upset, frozen, and exhausted, I couldn't do any landings after that. In retrospect I should have stopped after the oral and said I was too cold to continue.
 
AsjaL said:
I was doing great until the very end, even though I was frozen. Apparently you are not supposed to use flaps in a Cessna in a forward slip. I did all my training in a Cherokee, and then the Cherokee had maintenance issues that the owner refused to fix, so I had to move to a 152. Somehow a forward slip never came up. I was busted for that, and then I was so rattled, upset, frozen, and exhausted, I couldn't do any landings after that. In retrospect I should have stopped after the oral and said I was too cold to continue.
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Do not be discouraged now the oral is done all you need is a quick refresher with your CFI then go do the rest of the flying. Other than the increased cost it's not a big deal just take it as another learning experience and go on.
 
AsjaL said:
The answer is #1. The examiner asked every little thing for three hours. In a room and building with no heat. In the dead of winter. After three hours I was shivering and exhausted.
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It could be #1, but it could easily be #2 (not saying anything against you, it's just a possibility). Or #3, he enjoys torturing people.

I was doing great until the very end, even though I was frozen. Apparently you are not supposed to use flaps in a Cessna in a forward slip. I did all my training in a Cherokee, and then the Cherokee had maintenance issues that the owner refused to fix, so I had to move to a 152. Somehow a forward slip never came up. I was busted for that, and then I was so rattled, upset, frozen, and exhausted, I couldn't do any landings after that. In retrospect I should have stopped after the oral and said I was too cold to continue.
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I see a problem if he busted you for that. If he was looking for a reason to fail you, he'll find one eventually. That's what happened on my CFI ride, and then I had to go back. I was about ready to just quit and give up after the first round. I honestly hope I never see that guy again.
 
AsjaL said:
Apparently you are not supposed to use flaps in a Cessna in a forward slip. I did all my training in a Cherokee, and then the Cherokee had maintenance issues that the owner refused to fix, so I had to move to a 152. Somehow a forward slip never came up. I was busted for that, and then I was so rattled, upset, frozen, and exhausted, I couldn't do any landings after that. In retrospect I should have stopped after the oral and said I was too cold to continue.
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The *vast* majority of Cessna 172 aircraft can be slipped with flaps. There were a *small* number of them that said it was prohibited. Did the airplane you flew state they were PROHIBITED? The word *MUST* be PROHIBITED.

What model 172 did you do the checkride in?

Slips not being permitted are mostly an old wise tail. It was true for a few airplanes but not most. Some people don't understand the issue.
 
jesse said:
The *vast* majority of Cessna 172 aircraft can be slipped with flaps. There were a *small* number of them that said it was prohibited. Did the airplane you flew state they were PROHIBITED? The word *MUST* be PROHIBITED.

What model 172 did you do the checkride in?

Slips not being permitted are mostly an old wise tail. It was true for a few airplanes but not most. Some people don't understand the issue.
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Agreed -- if that was the cause for a bust I think the DE is a bit of a problem.

Not all DEs are the same -- some are just plain bad. I had good ones on every checkride (ok, at least workable) but my first student encountered a real PITA with his own "rules" that every examinee must somehow devine.

Ridiculous.
 
Slips with flaps are not prohibited in 150s, and I doubt they are in 152s either. Mine did them just fine.
 
I don't recall seeing anywhere in my 172 POH where forward slips with flaps are prohibited. It states: "Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20*"....and that's not a prohibition either.

You got hosed.
 
AsjaL said:
The answer is #1. The examiner asked every little thing for three hours. In a room and building with no heat. In the dead of winter. After three hours I was shivering and exhausted.



I scored 93. I mistakenly thought a high score would make the oral exam easier. I was clearly wrong.



I was doing great until the very end, even though I was frozen. Apparently you are not supposed to use flaps in a Cessna in a forward slip. I did all my training in a Cherokee, and then the Cherokee had maintenance issues that the owner refused to fix, so I had to move to a 152. Somehow a forward slip never came up. I was busted for that, and then I was so rattled, upset, frozen, and exhausted, I couldn't do any landings after that. In retrospect I should have stopped after the oral and said I was too cold to continue.
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Your DE is an idiot, and I would demand a refund if he failed you for that, because in all but a few examples (of which I've only seen anecdotally), you can most certainly use flaps during a forward slip.

Please post his name. This is unacceptable.
 
BTW, I am really, really angry right now that the FAA would allow a moron to be a DE and have this large of a gap in knowledge. I knew there were pilots that believed this, and CFIs too, but I thought DEs were held to a higher standard.
 
SkyHog said:
BTW, I am really, really angry right now that the FAA would allow a moron to be a DE and have this large of a gap in knowledge. I knew there were pilots that believed this, and CFIs too, but I thought DEs were held to a higher standard.
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You are some piece of work.... :rofl:
 
AsjaL said:
I was doing great until the very end, even though I was frozen. Apparently you are not supposed to use flaps in a Cessna in a forward slip. I did all my training in a Cherokee, and then the Cherokee had maintenance issues that the owner refused to fix, so I had to move to a 152. Somehow a forward slip never came up. I was busted for that, and then I was so rattled, upset, frozen, and exhausted, I couldn't do any landings after that. In retrospect I should have stopped after the oral and said I was too cold to continue.
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I'm concerned about a couple things here. First, the oral should have been conducted in a reasonably comfortable environment unless you specifically agreed to accept the cold conditions. Second, that bit about slips in a 152 is absolute total BS (I mean the DE's issue, I'm not doubting what you said). The only Cessna single that has any issues about slipping with flaps is the 172 and even there there's no prohibition, only a caution (technically there was a prohibition in one version of one model's POH but I'm pretty sure even that was retracted in a more current release). So the DE shouldn't have had any issue with you slipping with flaps.

I'd be tempted to start over with a different DE even though that would mean doing another oral in addition to repeating all the maneuvers you performed satisfactorily. Does the DE you used offer a discount on a re-take? IMO from your description of events he acted very non-professionally and ought to finish up with you for free (not likely though). I'd also speak with my CFI about what this DE pulled so he can at least spare his other students from the same nonsense.
 
AsjaL said:
Apparently you are not supposed to use flaps in a Cessna in a forward slip. I did all my training in a Cherokee, and then the Cherokee had maintenance issues that the owner refused to fix, so I had to move to a 152. Somehow a forward slip never came up. I was busted for that
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Too bad your instructor didn't know better, because that bust should have been appealed and would have been overturned. There is no reason at all not to use flaps in a slip in a C-152, and a DPE should know that. You would have gotten a free retake and had the bust removed from your record.
 
jesse said:
The *vast* majority of Cessna 172 aircraft can be slipped with flaps. There were a *small* number of them that said it was prohibited. Did the airplane you flew state they were PROHIBITED? The word *MUST* be PROHIBITED.
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There are no C-172's in which slipping with flaps is prohibited. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. There was at one time such a prohibition for some submodels of the 172, but it was removed decades ago, and every DPE in the USA should know that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Too bad your instructor didn't know better, because that bust should have been appealed and would have been overturned. There is no reason at all not to use flaps in a slip in a C-152, and a DPE should know that. You would have gotten a free retake and had the bust removed from your record.
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I'm not an expert here but why wouldn't the FSDO right the wrong at any time? If the facts are as reported and clarified to the FSDO, shouldn't the FSDO offer one of their examiners for the checkride?
 
I just read thirty-five responses and it is almost unanimous: Asjal should have passed and the DE screwed him!

Just a thought, but maybe he didn't pass because he didn't fly the Cessna well after receiving all of the instruction in a Cherokee. Maybe the whole check ride was marginal and coming in high enough on approach to warrant the forward slip was the breaking point.

Whatever the case, there is hardly enough information to condemn the DE for his decision. Personally, I was supplied with a list of recommended examiners that had an established history with the flight school. I would guess that was the case her as well.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Clark1961 said:
I'm not an expert here but why wouldn't the FSDO right the wrong at any time? If the facts are as reported and clarified to the FSDO, shouldn't the FSDO offer one of their examiners for the checkride?
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The FSDO doesn't get the examiner's report under IACRA, and even if they did, all it would say is failure in Area X Task Y without the specifc information that the reason for failure was slipping with flaps. That only comes out on appeal.
 
kevin7500 said:
Just a thought, but maybe he didn't pass because he didn't fly the Cessna well after receiving all of the instruction in a Cherokee. Maybe the whole check ride was marginal and coming in high enough on approach to warrant the forward slip was the breaking point.
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First, examiners are not permitted to run a test that way -- see what it says in the front of the PTS. Each task must be evaluated on its own merits, without regard to how well any other task was performed. Second, one of the tasks for PP is a slip to a landing, so that is probably where the failure occured, and in that case, you are required to put yourself in a position where a slip is required, without any limits on the use or non-use of flaps -- see Area V, Task K in the PP-A PTS. In any event, if the failure was for coming in too high, the use of "flaps and slip" in a specific aircraft make/model would not be relevant, and the examiner made clear that it was the combination of flaps, slip, and C-152 which cause the bust, not coming in high.
Whatever the case, there is hardly enough information to condemn the DE for his decision.
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Unless the information is inaccurate, yes, there is, based on the PP-A PTS and the C-152 POH.
 
Ron Levy said:
The FSDO doesn't get the examiner's report under IACRA, and even if they did, all it would say is failure in Area X Task Y without the specifc information that the reason for failure was slipping with flaps. That only comes out on appeal.
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Okay, fine, my question was (and is) why wouldn't the FSDO correct the situation at any time, e.g. why couldn't it could still be appealed?

On a side note, some FSDO's do more than look at the failure area. I was assured by my DPE that he had to explain to his boss my choice to down the aircraft on a tachometer failure. As always, YMWV.
 
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