principals or just let it go Question 1

Ravioli said:
So you need to lie to the roofer to get the truth from him? Where are the ethics in that?



In defense of the roofer: Bryan doesn't live in a custom mcmansion. I think he lives in a nice tract house. Most likely one of the 4 or 5 floor plans available from the builder for that tract. Does the roofer really need a ladder to quote the same job he's already seen. It's not like the hail was localized to his roof.
Click to expand...

Honestly Rob, I think he does. Bryan has said he thinks the roof has needed to be replaced for 5 years, they could get up there and find the deck rotted out.
 
Ravioli said:
So you need to lie to the roofer to get the truth from him? Where are the ethics in that?



In defense of the roofer: Bryan doesn't live in a custom mcmansion. I think he lives in a nice tract house. Most likely one of the 4 or 5 floor plans available from the builder for that tract. Does the roofer really need a ladder to quote the same job he's already seen. It's not like the hail was localized to his roof.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty good point.

Yes our builder did a great job of repeating floorplans throughout the neighborhood but disguising them behind varying elevations.
It is a pretty crafty neighborhood in that you can see a house and only after you walk inside go "Oh hey, this is my plan too"

But for the most part there are only 5 different SqFt available in this neighborhood.
 
PaulS said:
Honestly Rob, I think he does. Bryan has said he thinks the roof has needed to be replaced for 5 years, they could get up there and find the deck rotted out.
Click to expand...

As for the 5 years thing. This is totally my opinion based on 2 things:
Like I mentioned, there are broken shingles here and there.
When I bought the house 5 years ago, the inspector said "This roof is a hailstorm away from needing to be replaced. Might ask the sellers to replace it" which they did not.

It is a 30 year roof and the house is 13 years old. Me stating it needs replacing for 5 years is a highly unprofessional opinion based on a comment from an inspector.
It does not leak or have excessive wear as far as I know.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I just don't like when things don't feel right.

Here is an example. Insurance guy says "Were giving you a $780 check for the gazebo damage"
I told him I only paid $500 for it and truly the canvas top is all that is damaged and it is $68 to replace the canvas.

His response was "Once I walk away from your house, that is none of my concern" Seemed weird. The insurance company is voluntarily over paying for stuff and the roofing company knows it. I asked the insurance company, If I replace the canopy, do I pay the difference back to them. He says "No, that's your money"
Click to expand...
Right. Who knows why the insurance company pays out more than some stuff is worth but they do. They looked at my 20-year-old redwood picnic table and benches that had a few dents and gave me money for it. I could barely tell it was dented, besides, it was so weathered that it didn't matter.
 
Everskyward said:
Right. Who knows why the insurance company pays out more than some stuff is worth but they do. They looked at my 20-year-old redwood picnic table and benches that had a few dents and gave me money for it. I could barely tell it was dented, besides, it was so weathered that it didn't matter.
Click to expand...

Its weird. I feel like this might be part of why insurance premiums go up. They are over paying and so they make less and raise rates.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Composite shingles.
Click to expand...

As in synthetic shake? If they are replacing the whole roof then 16k is probably on the high end of the ball park. As mentioned above, you may not notice a leak but you may be one rain storm away from having one depending on how long a defective shingle has allowed water through to the underlayment.
 
Timbeck2 said:
As in synthetic shake? If they are replacing the whole roof then 16k is probably on the high end of the ball park. As mentioned above, you may not notice a leak but you may be one rain storm away from having one depending on how long a defective shingle has allowed water through to the underlayment.
Click to expand...

I don't know what synthetic shake means. Until yesterday I was saying "I need more of that 80 grit sandpaper stuff on my roof. some of it is torn"
 
There are several types of shingles. Asphalt being the most prevalent but you say "composite" and I'm thinking a hard, flat tile, shake. If they are "80 grit sandpaper" then more thank likely, they're asphalt and 16k is a rip off to the insurance company.
 
PaulS said:
Honestly Rob, I think he does. Bryan has said he thinks the roof has needed to be replaced for 5 years, they could get up there and find the deck rotted out.
Click to expand...

If that were to occur the insurance adjuster would be recalled to assess that as well.

More than likely they are both (insurance and roofer) estimating a typical tear-off and re-roof. When the work starts there could be more to be done. (Rot, termites, mold, all kind of things I hope are not there)

Heck, they could find out that Bryan drives a Cirrus and double the final bill because he clearly has the money to throw around :)

@SixPapaCharlie - your other reply indicates a valuable resource at your disposal. Talk to your neighbors! They're getting quotes from other insurers and other roofers too.

Way back in 2000, my 1 year old house in Richardson, TX got hit and zapped the roof. I spoke to the other people with my model (we were 5 of the 80 in our track that got the smaller house) and compared notes. We offered all 5 jobs to one roofer and got a "group discount" of sorts.

Also we're close to being out of the rainy season... put off the repairs until the tradespeople are done with the disaster pricing. You'll save $$$.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
After sleeping on this, I am going to hit the brakes. He quoted the job by looking at the insurance adjuster's estimated not by pricing the actual job. That seems weird.

I am going to call them and tell them I am getting 2 more estimates and explain why I am doing so. Of course his first question when he came to my house was "Where is the insurance paperwork?" He also tried to meet the adjuster at the house.

This reminds me of how my Dentist charges outrageous fees on things so he can get top dollar out of insurance companies.


Quick side question for anyone that does this sort of thing. $16k for a single story 5k sqft roof seem in the right ballpark?
Click to expand...


16k is really high if it is just a strip and reshingle. I could sub that out to my roofer I have had do close to 20 homes and make 5k on that bid.
 
Every time we have a bad storm here there are contractors in the neighborhood. My house is 20 years old and the roof is slap wore out. I've had a really small leak where a nail is for a couple of years. A spray can of that rubber crap and a small bowl up in the attic have kept it in check. Ove the last month we had a couple of storms with hail. After the first one there was a contractor across the street and I was out side so he came over and introduced himself and asked about doing a roof inspection. I've had several of these folks stop by over the years with the, "just replaced your neighbors roof, insurance paid for it, do you want us to do yours" spiel. I have always sent them packing mostly because I didn't like the feel of it. I let the latest guy leave me a card and brochure about the company and then had my wife check out the company. They've been in business a long time and have a good reputation. Week before last, about 11:30 at night we got hit pretty hard. Sounded like bombs going off outside. I called the guy up this week and arranged for an inspection. He and his climber came out, checked it all over and we called the insurance company and started the process. Adjuster will meet with the roofing guy this Friday.
 
The ins co estimated based on local rates and averages. Your roofer played around with the numbers and his margin and made his quote match your check. This happens all the time - most of my neighbors played that game when our hailstorm blew through. Your ins co probably also prorated your roof for its age, even if you didn't realize it.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Its weird. I feel like this might be part of why insurance premiums go up. They are over paying and so they make less and raise rates.
Click to expand...
Could be. Maybe the adjusters do it to avoid argument with people who would point out each dent on anything. Raising premiums is easier.
 
Ravioli said:
So you need to lie to the roofer to get the truth from him? Where are the ethics in that?

if the insurance made the check out to Bryan solely, then he is free to spend it as he pleases. It is common for the contractor to price the job at whatever the insurance payment is. Perhaps I should have said, "tell the roofer that you are paying for it." I may not know **** about flying, but I know quite a bit about this subject. Bryan, I did this exact work for years, roofing, fire and water related damage, exclusively insurance work. Texas is probably a little different from a alabama, but I doubt by much. If you want me to tell you exactly what the deal is send me a PM. I'm done here.
Click to expand...
 
Everskyward said:
The way I understand insurance is that they are paying you for your loss. You can choose to spend all the money or none if it. However, in my experience, the insurance company holds back a little until you provide a receipt. The only thing that would be unethical is if you didn't make repairs, then made another claim after the next hailstorm. But they would probably ask you at that time for the previous receipts.
Click to expand...

I just had a hail damage. The roof was 15 years old and made of a shingle (Horizon) that is discontinued and aged faster than anticipated ('25 year shingle' beat to hell after 15 years).

The damage (a new roof) is X,000
The day the insurance came out, the adjuster gave me a check that was
X,000
minus depreciation holdback
minus deductible

Once the work is done, my contractor sends a 'completion letter' to the company as well as some add-ons that are required by county building code but not included in the standard insurance estimate (flashing to be extended 18in from a valley and drip-edges). At that point, the insurance will cut me a check for the depreciation plus the code required add-ons.

With the depreciation holdback, the insurance wants to make sure that I actually get the work done and dont try collect a second time with the next hailstorm.
 
Last edited:
weilke said:
Not quite. I just had a hail damage. The roof was 15 years old and made of a shingle (Horizon) that is discontinued and aged faster than anticipated ('25 year shingle' beat to hell after 15 years).

The damage (a new roof) is X,000
The day the insurance came out, the adjuster gave me a check that was
X,000
minus depreciation holdback
minus deductible

Once the work is done, my contractor sends a 'completion letter' to the company as well as some add-ons that are required by county building code but not included in the standard insurance estimate (flashing to be extended 18in from a valley and drip-edges). At that point, the insurance will cut me a check for the depreciation plus the code required add-ons.

With the depreciation holdback, the insurance wants to make sure that I actually get the work done and dont try collect a second time with the next hailstorm.
Click to expand...
You chose to edit out the second part of my post where I mentioned the money the insurance company holds back until completion.
 
Ravioli said:
In defense of the roofer: Bryan doesn't live in a custom mcmansion. I think he lives in a nice tract house. Most likely one of the 4 or 5 floor plans available from the builder for that tract. Does the roofer really need a ladder to quote the same job he's already seen. It's not like the hail was localized to his roof.
Click to expand...

My contractor subscribes to a 'skyview' software that has high resolution photography of the roof to aid in the estimates. Give him the address in his service area and he can give you 3 different prices for the roof. His software and what the insurance guy measured with a laser distance measure up on the roof were off by 1/5th of a 'square'.
 
I'm going to be the contrarian here.

Just because the roofer is basing his price on the insurance estimate doesn't necessarily mean that his ethics are shady. They could be, but the auto shops play the same game. When contractors price a job, they figure out first what it costs to do the job, and then adjust it upwards, or downwards, depending on what it takes to sell the job. Sometimes they make a profit, other times they just keep their crews busy and paid. Realizing a loophole to save you money helps anchor the job and keeping it going competitive from their standpoint, and when it does, they have to decide whether it's worth it to waste time getting beaten down by the other guy, or not.
 
Zeldman said:
Go with a metal roof and be finished with roofs.

Unless you plan to move in a few years.
Click to expand...

This! Had one on a log home we had in north GA. Man oh man, women, metal roofs, and rain. Just saying!
 
Here's the thing. Insurance companies are in the business of replacing your stuff to the extent that it makes you whole, not better your position, not leave you financially diminished. They know the value of what you had, that's the adjuster's job. They know what stuff costs for a quality replacement job, down to sweeping up the last roofing nail. If you have rotted sheathing, or rafters, those will not be included in any claim.

Most insurance companies are reputable, and will do the right thing, not a penny more, not a penny less. Reputable contractors know that, and will not try and shade the deal. You don't have to be concerned with protecting their interests.

Sac makes a good point. Maybe the contractor likes your father and wznt to take care of you, maybe he took advantage of a good deal on materials, maybe he needs to keep a crew busy...not your problem. Just make sure he specs the job, and does it to specs.
 
Last edited:
You know I missed the part where the guy did a great job for your father, that's a pretty good recommendation. Check another reference, get another estimate if you want. If they work out good go for it.
 
Everskyward said:
Could be. Maybe the adjusters do it to avoid argument with people who would point out each dent on anything. Raising premiums is easier.
Click to expand...
People complain about their premiums increasing.

People take their business elsewhere and tell all their friends, acquaintances, and the general public on the Internet when they think the insurance company cheaped out on them.

It's the lesser of two evils.

The problem we had after our last hailstorm was that the (local well-regarded) contractor lost interest in the job after he found out the insurance company wouldn't let him add 20% to his bill for overhead and profit...he was subbing everything out, and so he wouldn't make any money on the deal. Of course, his roofer had shingles stacked on our roof before he found that out. Turns out we shoulda told him to get his shingles off our roof and found somebody else, but we were new to th area and didn't have a clue who to call.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Its weird. I feel like this might be part of why insurance premiums go up. They are over paying and so they make less and raise rates.
Click to expand...

Everskyward said:
Could be. Maybe the adjusters do it to avoid argument with people who would point out each dent on anything. Raising premiums is easier.
Click to expand...

This.

Think of it this way Briany, your rates will continue to rise every year of your life and the insurance companies always make a profit, so if their own adjuster hands you more money than you "deserve" just say thanks and "have a nice day".

Or just go total up every dollar you've spent in insurance ever, and you'll feel fine about it. They're just handing you your own money back and they'll demand more of it next year.

I only know of one person who's "ahead" on the insurance game. Insurance company is only in the hole to him about $10,000 after multiple disasters to his house, and two cars.

Anyway, back to the roofer. In a hail prone area I've done both the "get three bids" and stayed on top of the whole thing and all the research myself version, one time. And done the "let the contractor negotiate with the adjuster who's just done 50 houses and drove here from Texas in his company car and just wants to go home". The latter one they literally went up on the roof to negotiate. LOL.

I made out better money wise on the second one.

The two roofs both worked and lasted until the next hail storm. Everyone talks about worrying if they're cutting corners and I don't mind getting on a ladder and looking. They didn't -- because the scammy guy hired the same truckload of immigrants that the "legitimate" roofer did.

Just calling that one like I saw it. Don't care who they were, just saying the roofers were the same "sub-contractor" pool. Same skill level, roofs installed were identical. Didn't skimp on fixing a couple of cracked boards after they stripped off the roof, etc. Didn't skimp on fixing some beat up flashing around a chimney. Both work crews just hauled ass through the job and got it done, both times.

Texas/Colorado... you're getting an all immigrant crew and the "roofing companies" hired them from the same Home Depot parking lot this morning. Cash.

I'm sure you could have a bad experience with a fly by night, but the, hmmm... shall we say... more established "scammers" know how to handle the agents, and hire the same crews to do the actual work.

Both times, both crews left an incredible number of nails in my gravel side driveway. I learned to plan for a lot of flat tires until I found them all. Suggestion: Buy a big magnet on a stick. Use it right after roofers leave. They don't clean up after themselves.
 
mscard88 said:
This! Had one on a log home we had in north GA. Man oh man, women, metal roofs, and rain. Just saying!
Click to expand...

Unfortunately or not, I don't hear the rain on my roof. I'll hear it on the sky light or windows, but not the roof.

That is when we do get rain....
 
So does that mean you're getting hmph, you know, laid? :D
 
RJM62 said:
My understanding is that you can do whatever you want with the money. The insurance company gave you what they thought a roof would cost. If you want to spend it on booze and broads, that's your business.

Personally, I'd look for a roofer who has been around for a while and actually knows how to roof a house well. It's one of those businesses that attract a lot of ... let's just say "less-than-wonderful" operators. I'd look for a family outfit with a generation or two of good references behind them.

Rich
Click to expand...

If your house is mortgaged, not using the insurance money to fix the house would be a diminishment of their collateral, and they'd have good reason to demand you pay it to them as a principal reduction. Seeing that if the roof fails the rest of the house will follow, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't insist that you fix it or pay them off in full.
 
RJM62 said:
My understanding is that you can do whatever you want with the money. The insurance company gave you what they thought a roof would cost. If you want to spend it on booze and broads, that's your business.

Personally, I'd look for a roofer who has been around for a while and actually knows how to roof a house well. It's one of those businesses that attract a lot of ... let's just say "less-than-wonderful" operators. I'd look for a family outfit with a generation or two of good references behind them.

Rich
Click to expand...
This. I went with a door knocker that did a good job on a neighbors roof, turns out, they sub-contracted random crews and I got a bad(incompetent) crew and a bad roof job, going to have to have it completely redone. They seemed like the same 'make up a number to match the insurance check' type.
 
I'm in this a bit late but as to any ethical dilemmas I don't see a problem here.

You have a contract with the insurance company that says if you suffer certain types of damage(which is a financial loss) to your home they compensate you for that loss. You suffered damage, told them, they came out and said this damage is worth $X by our estimates. They write you a check and unless you want to contest their estimate your business with the insurance company is done- they compensated you for your loss. How you use that compensation is none of their business.

Maybe you spend all of it with a contractor, maybe you negotiate it at a lower price than that, maybe you and your buddy grab a truckload of new shingles and beer and do it yourself for 1/4 what they gave you. You were compensated already for what they thought was fair. If you saved yourself some money by DIY repairs or just savvy negotiating then that was labor you did my friend, you don't owe anything back it's compensation for your own labor.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I have 2 of these. The is the first.
Now Roofing company comes over and says yatta yatta, we can do this and we will forgive a portion that would be near or equal to your deductible. It is worded in such a way that it doesn't go against the way the Texas law is written. Lets just say it is a loophole that really saves me 4k out of pocket.
Click to expand...

Let me make sure I understand what's going on here. Using example numbers, the insurance company said, "We'll allow a $20,000 job, and your deductible is $4000, so we'll give you a check for $16,000."

Now the contractor says, "We'll give you a $20,000 job but only charge you $16,000 for it." In other words, a huge discount.

But then he backs up and says, "Oh well actually give me another $800," apparently because he found out you're getting settlements for the other items and will come out a little ahead because you're doing some of the work yourself.

Is this about right? If so, that would leave a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I see where you're coming from. However, by itself doesn't necessarily mean he's unethical. But once he made the deal with you about the roof (if only verbal) he should not have backed off from it, just because he discovered new information. That doesn't generate good will, as you found out because it made you uncomfortable.

In my mind whether it's actually unethical depends on the real value of the job. If you are only getting a $16,000 job but both the contractor and the insurance company are trying to tell you it's a $20,000 job, then that's fishy. But if it's really a $20,000 job, then the contractor is taking a hit in profit for whatever reason, (maybe generate good will and word of mouth business) in which case he shot himself in the foot by backing up and asking for the $800.

I told the insurance company, I will give them back the money I don't spend if it comes in under. I am not out to scam anyone. However, I suddenly don't trust this roofing company. They were referred to me by my father. They did a fantastic job on his roof. So I trust they will do good work but I feel like they are making up numbers and that bothers me a bit.
Click to expand...

How long ago did he do your father's roof? If not recent, I'd put less weight on it.

I did my mom's roof a year and a half ago. It was about $6000 for 2600 s.f. shingles two story, steep slopes, and included ridge vent, flashings, valley membranes, and removing a chimney and covering it over. Before giving me a proposal the guy spent an hour crawling over the roof, took pictures and included them in the proposal telling us exactly what he was going to do. He was great to work with, and they cleaned up every single nail and piece of trash when they were done. That was in NC, don't know how that compares.

Personally I'd feel a little bothered by your situation, especially after I got such a thorough proposal from the guy doing my mom's roof, and you say this guy didn't even look at your roof.
 
I think I am over the "They overpaid for the damage" part now. I get that i have been paying them for years, They put a value on the stuff, and I will pay more next year and all that jazz.
Now I am thinking I am going to switch contractors though.

I don't like that this particular one saw money on the table and said he would need it without any justification.
I get now that he is just smarter than me in this situation and realized I didn't think I was owed that money and so he made it his.

Ive decided any money in my pocket after this will go back into the house. There are always little repairs that are needed here and there. I feel if I fix some things here and there, I'm not going to feel as bad as If I used it to go flying or something.
 
Rushie said:
Let me make sure I understand what's going on here. Using example numbers, the insurance company said, "We'll allow a $20,000 job, and your deductible is $4000, so we'll give you a check for $16,000."

Now the contractor says, "We'll give you a $20,000 job but only charge you $16,000 for it." In other words, a huge discount.

But then he backs up and says, "Oh well actually give me another $800," apparently because he found out you're getting settlements for the other items and will come out a little ahead because you're doing some of the work yourself.

Is this about right? If so, that would leave a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I see where you're coming from. However, by itself doesn't necessarily mean he's unethical. But once he made the deal with you about the roof (if only verbal) he should not have backed off from it, just because he discovered new information. That doesn't generate good will, as you found out because it made you uncomfortable.

In my mind whether it's actually unethical depends on the real value of the job. If you are only getting a $16,000 job but both the contractor and the insurance company are trying to tell you it's a $20,000 job, then that's fishy. But if it's really a $20,000 job, then the contractor is taking a hit in profit for whatever reason, (maybe generate good will and word of mouth business) in which case he shot himself in the foot by backing up and asking for the $800.



How long ago did he do your father's roof? If not recent, I'd put less weight on it.

I did my mom's roof a year and a half ago. It was about $6000 for 2600 s.f. shingles two story, steep slopes, and included ridge vent, flashings, valley membranes, and removing a chimney and covering it over. Before giving me a proposal the guy spent an hour crawling over the roof, took pictures and included them in the proposal telling us exactly what he was going to do. He was great to work with, and they cleaned up every single nail and piece of trash when they were done. That was in NC, don't know how that compares.

Personally I'd feel a little bothered by your situation, especially after I got such a thorough proposal from the guy doing my mom's roof, and you say this guy didn't even look at your roof.
Click to expand...


To clarify. One man came out form the roofing company and crawled all over it and said"Yup it needs replacing"
I never got an estimate or anything.

The insurance adjuster came out and crawled all over the roof and gave me money for each thing he found.

Roofer #2 from the same roofing company was trying to meet the ins adjuster at my house but missed him by an hour.
He then says I need the ins. paperwork. Then he starts trying to repair everything in the list and I say "You are a roofer, just do the roof"

I called the ins. adjuster today. and said " I have concerns that this roofing company never gave me an estimate and just wants to charge me what ever numbers you came up with"
The ins adj. says Yes, that is what we want. He needs to work from our paperwork."

It is like the ins. company is going "Someone Screw Us!" and the Roofer is all "I've got this"

They repaired my dad's roof a month back but his was minor and when I brought him these details he said "Hell no don't let him see the paperwork. Tell him you are paying out of pocket"
"oops... too late"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top