Price Check Cherokee 140/160

ircphoenix

ircphoenix

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ircphoenix
Hi! Prebuy is Thursday. Wanted to run it by the experts around here to see what their valuation would be before I buy this thing

1970 Cherokee 140 with 160 HP STC upgrade (337s accounted for). 5,975 TTAF. 325 SMOH. Garmin GNS530 (non-WAAS). Garmin transponder. New VOR/GS 1, new turn coordinator. Logs go back to the day it was born. Paint is okay, but clearcoat is peeling a bit.

Attached a couple photos for a quick look.

What would you guys value this plane at? The seller is pretty adamant about not moving on the purchase price, and having an independent estimate from buyers/sellers that lines up with the sell price would make me feel a lot better about not having to haggle.
 

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It looks like a pretty clean panel but I wouldn't pay more than 32k for it, Cali dollars OR American dollars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I just spent the past year looking at Cherokee 140s before I found mine, so I've gotten to know their prices very well. I'd say the one you are looking at should go for the low to mid 30s... But there are many variables that can affect the price.
 
And remember: there will be a number of people that will tell you, "I wouldn't pay more than XXX dollars..." but they are not buying the plane, you are.
 
There are 49 other states at last count.

eman's guestimate makes sense. The pros on that plane is that it has the 160 upgrade recently done, and it's eligible for Dynon Glass STC. Cons are the $3500 WAAS upgrade on the 530 and getting to ADS-B out.
 
Yeah well I can't view ADS-B as a discount item since it's going to be a pretty universal requirement across the entire fleet... as far as I'm concerned since all of my flying is coming to or from under the mode c veil.
 
It's hard to put a value on it without knowing more. Cherokees are great planes but I think that even with the GPS 29K is a tad high but otherwise can't say what kind of dollar figure I'd put on it.
 
I was pointing out in the cons your expected near-term cash outlays that keep it closer to the $30k range
 
Just a thought...

I bought my plane a little over a year ago. I remember when I had been trying to buy though it was miserable. I called on a number of different planes. ---Let one get away (a Comanche) I regret...but part of the reason I didn't get the Comanche was I thought it was too much plane for me...easy for me today with 125 more hours to have a different perspective...if I prop struck the Comanche I'd feel differently.---

Made two different offers both fell through, one due to a lien on the plane that couldn't get paid off by the seller and the other on a plane that we could not reach agreement on after the pre-buy. It was a miserable process., and a lot of looking. At the end of it...I just wanted to be done and own a plane.

I got a 7400 aftt arrow 180 with ~450 smoh for 32500. The radios are narco 2navs and 2cmso...and largely obsolete in about 2 years.

BUT...overall I was amazed at how hard it was to find a plane for a "fair" price. Fairly priced planes seem to move pretty quickly... I will say before the arrow...I came across a 1964 Cherokee 180, the seller was asking 27500. Avionics were junk... Only one radio and 1 ancient nav. The smoh was probably ~400 if I'm remembering correctly. I thought if I wanted that 180 I probably could have offered 22000 or so and snagged it.

Just seeing your posts lately I think you are at that point where you want to be done shopping and start owning (I just see myself in the posts) that's an understandable thing just don't rush it I almost paid more than I should have for the plane that didn't work out after pre-buy, but it worked out. Just watch out the 530 is nice...BUT if you have to go ads-b anyway (sounds like your near the LA basin... Tearing into the panel is going to get expensive and that 327 nor the 530 are going to save much over starting "fresh."

Personally I realllllllly wish I had tried to get a 200hp arrow II. The arrow I have is good, but I lust after the 20 more hp. Oh well it's not enough to endure the transaction costs to imorove. A 140/160... Is going to feel slow realllll quick.
 
He wants 36k. He said he's already lowered the price once. The plane is due for annual this month. I asked him if he'd be willing to cover half of the annual if I turn the prebuy into an annual, and he immediately went in with "I already lowered the price as far as I'm going to go and that should cover the annual." Seems to be a common theme across sellers.

Took a look at the logs, and they all seem to show the engine was well cared for and maintenance items were ticked off as they came up. Rear stabilator was fixed so it's not subject to the recurring AD anymore. We'll see what the prebuy says I guess.
 
If you owned it today, I bet you don't have ownership of this airplane by 2020. So ADSB is still a purchase consideration I don't see as relevant. And gov98 already stole my thunder. You're gonna tire of 100kts block real quick. Trust me, this thing is even slower than my 83' warrior II, and that thing gave me and honest 115 full out, about 110 block. I.e. real world winds 95-105knots everywhere I went. Climb rates sub 500fpm in the summer 2-up. Yeah, that bad. I was grateful to have it in order to make a long distance relationship a 4 hour non-stop flight affair a reality, over driving over 9 hours each way on a weekend (ie an impossibility). But it wasn't pretty. That was a lot of angry birds while flying with my knee at night. LOL

I would recommend you just suck it up and dabble into a shortbody arrow 180. Actually an Arrow II would be better, but I understand your price cap. Trust me I've been there.

Alternatively you can go for a Cherokee 235, perhaps '73/74 charger/pathfinder if you're feeling froggy. Now that thing will put a grin on your face for a solo mission. Welded gear, so you save on the mx and annual costs associated with gear swing, plus the bit of insurance if you're a low retract time guy, and you get to discount for the fact the thing doesn't have the volume to put people nor bags to the tune of what an O-540 (even de-rated) can pull, due to the limited airframe volume of the short body pre-73(or 72 in the arrow) pa-28 series (N/A for Charger/Pathfinder). Both are airplanes you can attain in the same price range people want to sell you "cherry" cherokee 140/160s, and yet you're more likely to own the latter two for longer due to mission slop on the top end. Now that's a lesson I wish I had had the benefit of foresight when I was in your shoes.

Good luck to ya.
 
First plane I saw was a *insert forgotten year here* Arrow. No GPS, but decent radios. Paint was passable. Interior was okay. $31,000. Sold in about a week.

Retracts are out of the question for other reasons, so I'm out of that game entirely. I'd be totally fine with a Cherokee 180 short body.... but the market for those are limited. I was already looking at one of those for 34.... but that one needed some extensive body work, paint was shottttttt, another 6k of mx needed despite being 3 days out of annual. Tough to find a plane on a budget. ;)
 
Here's a secret between you me and POA. If you offered me 40 and didn't sound like a complete abrasive d-nozzle on the phone, you could have my Arrow II if I was selling it.

My point to you? That's what people not emotionally invested in old depreciated spam cans are willing to do to move metal without making an entire prenuptial agreement mess out of a simple artifact of living (a sales transaction.

My last nugget on this topic and then I'll leave you to your choices: Two.Thirty. Five. I mean it. If you're serious about doling out cash in the 30s and welded gear is a sticking point, you'd be remiss not to look at -235s. Hell a 73 or 74 would be the sweet spot. You're going to LOVE the climb rate and the flexibility it affords you, for less than even archer money. It's a parallel valve Lyco, so jugs are cheap compared to my angle valve 360. Just as bulletproof of an engine. Carb runs warm so icing is not a problem compared to Cessnas. Big tanks are the best speed mod in an otherwise draggy airframe. Great platform into time building and instrument platform with a CFI on board. Don't be scared of the two extra cylinders. I was, then I realized how much a non-issue it is. Again, I wish I had the benefit of this insight when I was in the market. Now I know, after trading up 2 times.

It's free internet advice, but at least give it some consideration before you buy into a 150-160hp ship.
 
I'm gonna go against the grain here. I think $36K is a fair selling price. Maybe ask $35K just to make yourself feel good. If the plane's pre-buy checks out and you're confident it's in good shape, I think mid 30s is reasonable for a low time engine and a 530, even without the W.

Geez guys - it's 36 grand. A Cherokee 160 is cheap flying at its finest (well, that's a 180 IMO, but still..), and if it fits the mission, I don't see what the problem is. Write the damned check and go have fun! :)
 
ircphoenix said:
It's a California plane. No such thing as 29k. ;)
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wait, wtf. sight unseen I said 29 and I got ripped a new one, Cali style. he wants 36, I'm not that far off. he's ASKING 36, if u got it for 32 I'm pretty mo fo'king close, I mean jeezus. I should win a mo fo'king prize.
 
Less ask. More demand. ;) And with no boobs even!

There are some other considerations too Hindsight. I'm limited in my options to 172 comparable planes with straight legs. I appreciate how helpful you've been via PM as well.

And to all of those that are posting, I sincerely appreciate all the input. Keep it coming.
 
You can ask whatever you want,and hold firm,but if the plane doesn't sell,it's priced too high. 30 k seems like a good price for the aircraft.
 
frfly172 said:
You can ask whatever you want,and hold firm,but if the plane doesn't sell,it's priced too high. 30 k seems like a good price for the aircraft.
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Good advice...try to find out what his hangar rent is, and politely point out that every month he holds the plane, he is down $XXX dollars too. You mentioned he lowered his price, so his plane may have been for sale for awhile...find out how long and point out the hangar rent he has ALREADY paid while setting the price too high in the first place.
When I was looking for a Cherokee, a 1966 180 went up for sale on my field. It had a new reman engine, and the guy was asking $45k firm...I didn't give it a second look, although I would have given him $35k in a heart beat. 16 months later, I bought my Cherokee, and I found out that he had just that same week sold his Cherokee, for $35k...so much for his price being firm! And in the mean time, he paid 16 months of hangar rent too!
 
ircphoenix said:
He wants 36k. He said he's already lowered the price once. The plane is due for annual this month. I asked him if he'd be willing to cover half of the annual if I turn the prebuy into an annual, and he immediately went in with "I already lowered the price as far as I'm going to go and that should cover the annual." Seems to be a common theme across sellers.

Took a look at the logs, and they all seem to show the engine was well cared for and maintenance items were ticked off as they came up. Rear stabilator was fixed so it's not subject to the recurring AD anymore. We'll see what the prebuy says I guess.
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the price is too high,,, the seller is too ridged!
walk away,, youre looking at a prebuy, you think will be perfect, but even then you dont want to spend 36K.
then you will need an annual in a month,, it may be small now with the prebuy, but
next year, all hell may come down!
some prebuys show AOK,,, but the annual shows a plane riddled with corrosion!!!
just looking at barnstormers,,, their are Many planes of this ilk for less money,,, Many!!!
this plane should be got for 28K...
 
robert lomax said:
the price is too high,,, the seller is too ridged!
walk away,, youre looking at a prebuy, you think will be perfect, but even then you dont want to spend 36K.
then you will need an annual in a month,, it may be small now with the prebuy, but
next year, all hell may come down!
some prebuys show AOK,,, but the annual shows a plane riddled with corrosion!!!
just looking at barnstormers,,, their are Many planes of this ilk for less money,,, Many!!!
this plane should be got for 28K...
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I *have* looked at Barnstormers. And Controller. And Trade-A-Plane. There are not similarly equipped examples that I can find of the same or newer model year. The biggest thing I read on here is "the cheapest way to buy upgrades is to buy a plane that's already equipped." How much does a non-WAAS 530 cost to install? To upgrade to WAAS is significantly less expensive than getting a new unit and installation, no?
 
I've never purchased a plane. I wish I had. BUT - I have purchased a couple of boats, few homes and a handful of cars/trucks. New and used. I cringe when I think of some.

On one hand, if it makes you happy, a few grand doesn't matter. $6k on a $30k plane is meaningful though.

What concerns me is your unwillingness to walk away. I was that way with 2 cars and 1 boat and overpaid. On the one car by a lot.

You aren't, likely, using a pa28 to earn income. So this is for fun. Even though you've looked at a ton of planes and are fatigued, you have to be willing to walk away. Before AND after a pre buy.

If I had your priveledge and thought this plane was worth $30, or $29, or $32 whatever, before a pre buy, I'd talk to him.

"I've looked at a ton of 4 seat 160hp planes now. This is a nice bird, and I like it. I'm willing to pay $28 and can schedule the pre buy now."

"I'm firm at $36" - ok - here's my card. I really like it. If you move off that price please call me first.

Walk away.

Or - "I've dropped my price already. $36 was my floor. I could go $34."

I'll meet you in the middle. How about $30, I'll schedule the annual now (with your hand extended).

It's a nice plane. I trained in 140s. I don't know what it's worth, but only one in this thread said $36 was fair. Be willing to walk (or you have no leverage).
 
@ircphoenix 36K is too high for a 140. Now if that was a 180, that would be a different story.

The least important thing to me is the paint when I'm looking at a plane. I'd rather have solid avionics. A non-WAAS 530 to install is probably going to be at least 10K. The upgrade to WAAS is probably half that, so yeah, it's cheaper.

FWIW, I bought a VFR PA28-180C (1965) for about 38K. It came with no GPS, an SL-30, and an STEC30 autopilot. 36K for this 140 is probably about 5K too high. A base model 140 goes for about 25K, people like to think that by adding a 10K GPS that somehow the value jumps 10K..lol..no way.

And the fact that it's 1970 doesn't help things either. At BEST if everything is perfect even with that low engine time I'd say this would be a 30-32K plane. 36K is just too much for it.
 
I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm not willing to walk away from this plane. I walked away from the dealer for my car 3 times before I got the deal I wanted. I am DEFINITELY fatigued with the plane purchasing process, not going to lie about that aspect. I'm only trying to provide counterpoints to some of the points that seem to go against all of the things I've read on various threads on this board about upgrades, and spend more on a cream puff so you don't spend more on mx and upgrades, and that it is cheaper to buy a plane with everything installed than it is to buy something that you're spending money on to upgrade.

So I'm looking at this plane, which seems to be in good shape and reliably maintained with solid avionics requiring a minimum of initial investment.... and I read other posts of people being proud of their 28k investments, then turning around and putting 20k of upgrades into it in the first year. Seems like conflicting information.

The seller already had another buyer look at the plane, and he wasn't willing to pay 36k either. He wanted a discount for paint.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
I just wanted to add, I wish I had the balls to buy a plane 10 yrs ago. Things change. Enjoy your passion!
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I will say in the year we've owned the plane my wife and I have put ~120 hours on it. At the nearby rental rate of $150/hr we're easily ~$8000 to the good side even while renting a hangar. Owning for us has been a lot of fun. If you fly the plane enough and are flying in IMC enough...the 530 on the 140/160 will in part justify its expense. In your location, especially if there's a consistent morning layer, it might be worth it. For example where I am, there is rarely a day when I cannot launch VFR, but that's not everyone's situation. BUT, "worth it," and "could you turn around and resell it for what you paid for it," are two different things, but...$3000-4000 goes quick into another and then a second or third pre-buy trying to find the plane that works.
 
ircphoenix said:
I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm not willing to walk away from this plane. I walked away from the dealer for my car 3 times before I got the deal I wanted. I am DEFINITELY fatigued with the plane purchasing process, not going to lie about that aspect. I'm only trying to provide counterpoints to some of the points that seem to go against all of the things I've read on various threads on this board about upgrades, and spend more on a cream puff so you don't spend more on mx and upgrades, and that it is cheaper to buy a plane with everything installed than it is to buy something that you're spending money on to upgrade.

So I'm looking at this plane, which seems to be in good shape and reliably maintained with solid avionics requiring a minimum of initial investment.... and I read other posts of people being proud of their 28k investments, then turning around and putting 20k of upgrades into it in the first year. Seems like conflicting information.

The seller already had another buyer look at the plane, and he wasn't willing to pay 36k either. He wanted a discount for paint.
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It took me about 3-4 months to find a plane and I actually did a pre-buy on one that I didn't end up buying. Came back with 10K worth of repairs, seller said "Nope" and I walked away.

The one I bought was a fantastic aircraft, still kinda regret selling her, but it had to happen. There are some seriously delusional people out there selling planes. I've seen Cessna 150's going for almost 50K, Arrows for 150K and 172s for 150K (yes..really). And none of these are newer than 1970-1975...

The easiest way to catch someone's eye is to slap a new coat of paint on a plane (which is why I ignore that when I buy). You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig... Make sure whatever purchase agreement you use or sign has an out at the pre-buy if the plane sucks or you find 10K worth of repairs (like I did).

I'm not really in the market for a plane, but doesn't stop me from looking. And..I can get sucked in too. The day just gets away from me when I'm crunching numbers trying to figure out how to make it work..:).

Finding the perfect plane is a combination of exactly knowing your mission, patience and quite frankly, luck.
 
I think one of the things working against me is I'm a first time buyer. The other thing working against me is that he's a first time seller. LoL

I think that he believes he's genuinely offering a good price for the plane... but I also think he bought it a year ago, put a few grand into it to fix various things like the turn coordinator and VOR/GS, and he believes that money is 1:1 on the value of the aircraft. Reality is those repairs just bring it up to normal, not offer a premium.
 
I'd say it's a 32k ish airplane.

The good
Looks nice
Good TT TSMO times
Good avionics, more then enough for instrument work

The bad
It's not a 180hp or over PA28, you're looking at a plane which isn't that far off from a 180 or 236 price wise, there is no advantage to the smaller engine. To me, this would probably be a deal breaker, I've flown most all PA28s and I wouldn't want to own anything under 180hp, ideally injected.


The not good or bad

The paint, paint does factor into price and is a important thing, not airworthy but no one ever bragged about going out with the ugly girl. That paint looks like you could save it with a little elbow grease.

The GNS530, not being WAAS isn't a big deal, it still will shoot most approaches you're going to find and it'll still get you down low enough for most missions, if you need 200' it'll shoot a ILS. If you decide to WAAS it, it's only about 3k, no big deal.

On the approaches note, again not something I'd expect to see, but something that would be nice for serious IFR, a autopilot with GPSS, STEC 30 with alt hold would be nice for IMC single pilot flights.


The ADSB thing, is not something that would take away from the value, it's like a bonus. With the all in one advancements in ADSB I'd wager you could make it 2020 kosher for 4K ish, if you wait for all the goodies to come out closer to 2020, ALSO that is only if you NEED ADSB, lots of folks ain't going to need it in the first place.



So he's a little overpriced, a few thousand, not too bad but still the biggest issue is it's not a PA28-180 or better, if I were going to suggest something I'd say keep looking for a 180 or better.

If you do go forward with this plane, I would make him cover ANYTHING on the prebuy which came up that was different from how the plane was represented in the sales add, airworthy issues, non airworthy issues just the same.
 
ircphoenix said:
I think one of the things working against me is I'm a first time buyer. The other thing working against me is that he's a first time seller. LoL

I think that he believes he's genuinely offering a good price for the plane... but I also think he bought it a year ago, put a few grand into it to fix various things like the turn coordinator and VOR/GS, and he believes that money is 1:1 on the value of the aircraft. Reality is those repairs just bring it up to normal, not offer a premium.
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Exactly..some people are under the delusion that adding a new VOR or a AI or new DG somehow raises the value of the plane..uh..no. All it does is now put the plane exactly on par with a plane maybe 10K less with functioning versions of those.

@James331 covered some of things that really add to the value of the plane and core equipment..just doesn't do that.
 
I feel like if I were in the SE or NE I'd have far more options regarding planes. Seems like all the good 180s are available back in the east. There's one here in California that looks good on paper (with no research done) that is 37k on Barnstormers but it's got the older panel and the radio stack would have to be redone. And if a plane costs me 2 or 3k to have to go pick up and bring back, I didn't really save myself any money when I have a hard budget limit.

Also, I'd like to take a moment to reiterate just how terrible Barnstormers' UI is.
 
Whoa, hold the phone.

You're only looking in your home state!!! Which is God forbid CA?

You're setting yourself up for failure from the start.

Look nation wide, look in Canada, with how cheap airline tickets are, and being you're probably buying the plane to fly a few cross countries anyway, flying out and flying it back, it'll be one of the best flights you'll ever make, I've done it twice.


Fish with a bigger net
 
35K sounds a little high.. but maybe 3k to 4k high... so the question to me would be is it worth spending that much to have the equipment it has... I wanted a 180, but was only looking at 140's due to budget. then found a 140 with a 540 hr O-360 and a poor panel for 23k after pre-buy... it fits what I need now, and I will windup spending another 15k in instruments over time... so it's still a short body 180ish airplane with good paint form 30 ft away, that flys great... the flying great part is what I like.... one can spend a lot or a little, but the best deal is the one that is completed!... look a the pre-buy info, and go with that. If there is a lot to do, the price needs to be adjusted, if its clean, then it may be good..
 
James331 said:
Whoa, hold the phone.

You're only looking in your home state!!! Which is God forbid CA?

You're setting yourself up for failure from the start.

Look nation wide, look in Canada, with how cheap airline tickets are, and being you're probably buying the plane to fly a few cross countries anyway, flying out and flying it back, it'll be one of the best flights you'll ever make, I've done it twice.


Fish with a bigger net
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You could at least look at adjoining states, or up and down the coast...I kept my search to about 500 miles out, because I wasn't in a hurry, and it made the whole process easier...even going to 750 miles would have been easy and would have worked if I wanted to hurry things up a bit.
 
Well my first plane I was looking at was in Texas.

I've broadened my search to Nevada and Arizona, but again, it's kinda slim pickins on this side of the country.

I'm not trying to move the goal posts on y'all. Just trying to winnow down my situation. And again, thoroughly enjoying EVERYTHING everyone has to offer. There's actually a wealth of information you guys are offering even beyond the price check. Which is awesome. Thanks!!!
 
I understand about the holdup with Barnstormers, but there is a listing for a 1963 180 with a great panel in AZ, asking 34k... take a look.. 3565 TT, with a GPS...
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1963 PA-28 Cherokee 180
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1963 PA-28 CHEROKEE 180 • $34,900 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • Priced to Sell! 1963 Piper Cherokee 180 in perfect mechanical and flying condition. This plane has been well taken care of. A redone panel with dual Glide slope KX 155 digital radios makes this plane an ideal flyer for both new and accomplished pilots. Based in Phoenix, AZ, this has been a dry climate plane most of it's life and has no damage history, all maintenance records since new, and all AD's and SB's complied with. Annual compression 73,78,79,79/80! New Main tires just installed, All inspections up to date also. Airmap 2000c GPS included with sale. 3565 TT/1128 SMOH • VIEW LOGS & PHOTOS HERE! • Contact Steve Babyar - PRIMO VOLO AIRCRAFT TRADERS, Broker - located Glendale, AZ USA • Telephone: 480-442-7099 . • Fax: 888-870-0410 • Posted May 10, 2016
 
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