poadeleted20
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I was talking about Henning, not Jesse, in response to Jesse's suggestion that Henning get his "MEI."
Preventing Go-Around Accidents
- Thread starter Jaybird180
- Start date
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I did my initial in a Debonair and it may have worked to my advantage. The FSDO is used to initials being in 172RGs or Arrows and those are the airplanes they know well. I knew a LOT about the Deb systems as I spent a lot of time studying it and Spike sent me a lot of data. The FSDO guy knew next to nothing about it. He also seemed pretty excited about getting to fly it.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
LOL no there is no relationship DIRECT relationship between groundspeed and rudder authority.. What I mean is that sometimes its worth landing a little faster with less flaps in a crosswind because you don't need as much rudder. Besides often with a strong crosswind there is decent headwind component as well so landing 5kts 'faster' airspeed wise may be negated anyway. When I can't seem to get it down with full flaps in, taking a notch out seems to do the trick. (Or else just give up and go for a different runway)
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Arbiter419
Cleared for Takeoff
Preventing go around accidents? Hrm...don't go around, do it right the first time?
/shrug
/shrug
nosehair
Cleared for Takeoff
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you do what you're suggesting you still have to slow the airspeed down, and when you're slowing it down, you're just as exposed as if you didn't do it with that excess speed.
Your airplane makes a terrible racecar. Don't try to drive it like a racecar on the runway. It's best to touch down slowly.
Jeanie
Pattern Altitude
poadeleted20
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And often there is little or no headwind with a strong crosswind directly or nearly directly across the runway. Since there is more than enough rudder in every Standard category light plane I've ever flown to handle a crosswind up to and well beyond the book demonstrated crosswind limit, giving up the advantages of a full flap landing, especially the much shorter flare distance, is not in my mind worth the return of not having to push the rudder pedal as hard.
As for not being able to "get it down" with full flaps, I would suggest that if conditions are that close to the limit, you would be far wiser to choose another runway more aligned with the wind, even if that means one at another airport.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Less flaps = higher stall speed (You'll be on the ground at higher airspeed with more rudder authority.)
True if its direct, your going to have the same groundspeed. I fly out of an airport with a 4,400ft main runway most of the time so whats <500ft in a large x/w component? Yeah on a short-field runway if you can't do with full flaps go find another airport.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Which is bad when you're flying an airplane that doesn't handle worth a **** as a car. Much better off to keep it an airplane, as designed.
Decent article:
http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/182656-1.html
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Have you never landed with little or no flaps!? I'm not talking about landing at 90kts or anything.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sure I have. Many times. I've also landed many times with full flaps. I've yet to see a pilot do a landing with less flaps in a crosswind that couldn't have been done as good or better with full flaps.
I'll take a slow touchdown with a lot of drag anyday, regardless of the crosswind.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
I'll take better directional control over 5/10kts of airspeed (probably less difference in groundspeed if its any kind of a headwind component) if the wind is strong enough. Do you land slow when its gusty out too?
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't land "slow". I land at the appropriate airspeed, which is never more then 1.3 Vs0.
You don't gain better directional control with a faster speed and less flaps. Instead you're giving up your airplane's ability to be an airplane at a faster speed then you need to do so. I have no interest in turning the airplane into a car with three crappy wheels and a profile that just loves to grab teh wind. Unforutently I must turn it into a car so I'd rather do that in the most controlled manner which means the least amount of energy.
I've flown in winds gusting over 40 knots with varying levels of crosswind from almost none to I don't have anywhere near enough rudder..and I've done those winds with varying levels of flaps from none to full. I'll take the full. Much more controlled.
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An interesting excerpt from the article:
He suggested I spend the crummy weather days looking through his office's collection of accident reports. So I did.
I got interested in landing accidents and found that where flap deflection on landing was recorded, the landing accident rate seemed to be inversely proportional to the percentage of available flap being used. That is, the more flap deflection used, the fewer the number of accidents.
I also noticed that most landing accidents were really rollout accidents. The pilots almost always managed to get the airplane onto the runway, then lost it during rollout.
I got interested in landing accidents and found that where flap deflection on landing was recorded, the landing accident rate seemed to be inversely proportional to the percentage of available flap being used. That is, the more flap deflection used, the fewer the number of accidents.
I also noticed that most landing accidents were really rollout accidents. The pilots almost always managed to get the airplane onto the runway, then lost it during rollout.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
So in the 40kt gusts you flew your approach at 1.3Vs0? I don't understand how you would turn the airplane into a car...
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Bet you most of those were from letting up on the crosswind correction before the airplane was tied down.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes. We fly light piston airplanes with instantaneous thrust. You don't fall out of the sky like an airliner can when flying through a microburst. Airliners crashing because of microbursts is what led to people flying faster speeds. Somehow that trickled down into the piston world.
You turn an airplane into a car when you decide that you're better off touching down at a faster speed then flying it to a slower more controllable speed.
poadeleted20
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You go, Jesse. 
Kinetic energy goes up with the square of speed, so it's not desirable when you're landing.
You can get the same rudder authority at a lower speed by putting in full flaps and using energy from the engine which you can instantly control and vary as required. If you need even more rudder authority you can add more throttle and add the same kinetic energy you had before to the energy from the engine and do even better. As long as you have a running engine, full flaps provides you with the greatest control of your situation. T
I won't do it in the 310, if I do it it'll be in a Beech 18 same time I do my ATP if I bother with that.
Wind "Gusting to 40" is not the same as "40kt gusts". Gusts are generally in the 15%-20% on top of steady wind state. In order to have a 40kt gust, you're flying in a Category 2 or stronger hurricane.... The gust value will likely be 8kts or less, carry half that as a buffer and you carry and extra 4 kts, round it up to 5. Fine. Why is reducing the flaps required to pick up 5kts? In a taildragger with flaps, they don't call for different flap configurations between a Wheel Landing and a 3 Point, and in most all singles, that's a 5 knot difference in approach and touchdown speed. I use full flaps on either.
silver-eagle
En-Route
Go-arounds... Power, pitch, flaps. Power to stop the descent, pitch as needed, start the climb, one notch of flaps on positive rate of climb.
Flaps on landing... The only time I don't use full flaps (now) is when they are broken. Emergency landings (or E practice) makes it different. Back when, my instructor taught me to adjust as necessary. Only use full flaps when you have the runway made.
I flew a C172 with 40 degrees of flaps. I was amazed at what kind of an anchor full flaps were and what a nice slow stable approach.
Flaps on landing... The only time I don't use full flaps (now) is when they are broken. Emergency landings (or E practice) makes it different. Back when, my instructor taught me to adjust as necessary. Only use full flaps when you have the runway made.
I flew a C172 with 40 degrees of flaps. I was amazed at what kind of an anchor full flaps were and what a nice slow stable approach.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Henning, Jesse I am aware of the difference between 40kt gusts and gusting to 40kts. (From whatever he didn't really specify). Usually you add half the gust factor to your approach speed just in case.. And I find it much easier to land in heavy winds (especially gusty) by landing with less flaps. I'm not a day one pilot, I have played in the wind more than once. Touching down 5 even 10kts (on the extreme end) faster (and again airspeed, groundspeed difference is less the headwind component) is not going to burn the tires off the airplane. I can unerstand where you guys are coming from when your on a short runway, but if you have plenty of room why have your rudder pedal almost to the floor trying to keep the nose and tail aligned with the centerline if you don't have to?
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p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
[And yes I mean nose and tail parallel to the centerline with rudder, banking to stay on it]
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p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Haha its an airplane not a car though and touching down at the bottom of the green arc is not going to roll you over. [Less you sideload it] It is no different than when you practice no-flap landings during your training. Besides it might be only less one notch or two.
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The "easy" thing is not necessarily the "safest" or "best" method. Practice some more until you can fly your plane well regardless the conditions or configuration. Landing 10kts faster than normal landing does more than just use up extra runway. It sets you up for bouncing, ballooning & porpoising. At 10 kts over landing speed the plane is still flying, you pull a bounce with a good strong gusting (that's an extra 25% speed and 625% kinetic energy of C-152/172) and you bounce on one of those strong gusts and the wind gets under and you lose control (it happens not infrequently in the NTSB database) you are carrying all that extra kinetic energy which manifests itself in inertia. So, Now you have 625% of the inertia you would have had other had which means you need 625% more control authority to stop the deviation and regain your path. Problem is, you only only increased your control effectiveness 25% and you may not have the time required for the controls to be able to insert enough energy to overcome the new vector inertia added to the wind energy accelerating you off your desired vector. From the bounce you may have as little as 1.5 seconds before you're wrecked off the side of the runway.
Now of course this can happen at the lower proper speed with full flaps, however it is less likely because you'll have a increased by the square the ratio of corrective force : divergent force. On top of that you will be carrying more power in a higher lift configuration so not only will you have greater control authority by increasing the airflow over the tail and reducing the the relative wind angle on the fuselage and tail decreasing the available divergent force, you have the ability to fly it out that much faster when thing go wrong, there is also the fact that when it does go all wrong, you'll be carrying 625% less excess kinetic energy into the accident. That kinetic energy is what kills you and you passengers and does all the material damage.
Full Flaps every landing it's possible. Just learn how to control the plane completely. It's not about pretty, it's about survival, and excess energy is what kills you.
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
What's better? A blown tire/locked brake on landing at 50mph, or at 90mph? Yeah, I've had one happen, Kent on here has had 2 happen. I'll take it at 50 thanks.
COFlyBoy
Line Up and Wait
Holy crap guys! How much difference in stall speed does the last notch of flaps really make on your plane?
On mine, the last notch doesn't change the stall speed in any noticable way. It just adds a bunch of parasitic drag, but doesn't (noticably) increase the amount lift. The first 2 notches do make a difference in stall speed, but it is only about a 6 mph difference from no flaps to full flaps.
I spent about a year landing with just 2 notches of flaps, because with full flaps the plane quit flying in the flare so abruptly that I was having trouble getting it smooth. I worked through that with 2 notches and now use full flaps normally.
On mine, the last notch doesn't change the stall speed in any noticable way. It just adds a bunch of parasitic drag, but doesn't (noticably) increase the amount lift. The first 2 notches do make a difference in stall speed, but it is only about a 6 mph difference from no flaps to full flaps.
I spent about a year landing with just 2 notches of flaps, because with full flaps the plane quit flying in the flare so abruptly that I was having trouble getting it smooth. I worked through that with 2 notches and now use full flaps normally.
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Anthony
The ONLY time I land my Tiger without full flaps is to practice no flap landings in the event of an electrical failure. Other than that, it's full flaps, no matter the wind direction, or speed.
If I am too hot, or too high, and the runway isn't very long, I go around. Another few minutes of flying isn't going to kill me. Running off the end of the runway or worse may.
If I am too hot, or too high, and the runway isn't very long, I go around. Another few minutes of flying isn't going to kill me. Running off the end of the runway or worse may.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
That's what I'm saying. These guys atre acting like it's extremely dangerous to land with less flaps. Some airplanes dont even have flaps.. Check your POH it probably says DESIRED flap setting.. Not you must use FULL flaps or certain death will follow.
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Your stall speed is irrelevant largely except to the extent that the closer you are too it you are on the ground, the longer you sit in the "Wind can flip me over" zone and less flaps means less deceleration. It has no effect on the kinetic energy of the crash at all. It just makes it more likely that at the higher landing speed that things will go wrong by bouncing and adding a force vector perpendicular to your desired vector making the damage that much greater and death of those on board more likely.The attitude required to land at at the highe speed also puts you at a disadvantage with regards to the wind being able to flip you as well.
I'd rather lose it off the windward side of the runway and into the ditch at 35kts than be picked up and tossed to the down wind side at 50.
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COFlyBoy
Line Up and Wait
OK, that argument makes sense in a no flaps vs full flaps argument. But it doesn't really make sense when arguing half flaps vs full flaps.
For me the touchdown speed with 2 notches is the same as with full flaps and the attitude is exactly the same. The first thing I do when the wheels hit is pull the flaps up, so the flaps aren't even part of the decelleration on the ground.
The last notch of flaps on my plane just steepens the approach angle, but doesn't change anything about the touchdown.
poadeleted20
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Even more interesting -- initial CFI in a BE18.
p1l0t
Line Up and Wait
Your more likely to be picked up and tossed to the down wind side with full flaps.
Also on takeoff your wheels spin much faster because you can't start at the optimal AOA and likely full flaps is way too much drag.
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Close the boards down. We have our new expert that knows everything. The rest of us should just stop posting, and be honored that we are witness to the Gospel that is brought to you by aviation's second coming of Jesus, and just read whatever he says. Discussion over, just bask in the aura.
Jesse, can you make this possible?
Jesse, can you make this possible?
I wanted to address this separately. What you did was screw yourself. Rather than practicing at getting it right, you have ingrained bad habits that one day may lead to the demise of you and your passenger.
Don't look for an "easier way" to do things when it comes to flying. Practice until you get them right. "Quit Flying Abruptly" is EXACTLY what you want on a landing especially when you have strong adverse wind condition. Once you are on the ground, you want to stay there. Any accident you can have at less than flying speed with all the wheels on the ground is going to be infinitely safer than anything that involves going through the air out of control.
The problem isn't that the plane stops flying abruptly, the problem is that you can't judge the distance to the ground properly and when the plane quits flying abruptly, you're too far off the ground. It's your error, not the flaps, and rather than correct your deficiency in ability to protect you by increasing skill, you forge a crutch from the airplane's ability to protect you in a crash. The problem is the day that crutch get's kicked out from beneath you, you and everyone on board will have a much increased chance of dying.
The answer to your issue is to increase your skill, not decrease your flaps. Problem is you've made that much harder to do with all the sight picture and muscle memory you developed in the intervening time. However, there is a simple exercise you can do for a couple of hours and you will never again have an issue of "looking for the runway" beneath you and you'll be able to win every spot landing contest in the region.
Head on over to the biggest old bomber base you can find, if you can get to one of the old triangle ones with 11,000' runways, they're the best, although Long Beach's "tick tack toe with a slash" design is ultimate. (on a slow evening we'd just keep taking off and doing 270* turns to land on the runway last crossed and such so you could get landings with the wind from all quarters). On your way there, practice full flaps Minimum Controllable Airspeed flight with the stall horn blaring for 5 solid minutes as you S-Turn back and forth +/- 30* of your course and see how tight you can get the turns. Start the exercise about 10 minutes before when you'll be on final and note your power setting you find that works the best. Fly down final but this time as you get near, slow down to the same MCA settings, and work your way down to the runway staying at those settings. Level off over the threshold and lower the nose just a touch to set on the runway and raise it a touch to pick it off, and just "skip" the plane down the runway like this. Spend an hour just skipping down runways at MCA.
Crosswinds are the one time it's safer to be under the power curve rather than over it because of the greater control authority. Learn to be comfortable there.
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