Preventing a Gear-up Landing

Since I cannot see the gear down in the Arrow I call out three green on all three legs of the pattern
 
Take a look at the panel of a first generation Bonanza. The flap switch and the gear selector switch look and feel identical. In fact every switch looks exactly the same as does the ashtray.

So we have spent the last 50 years refining our designs to eliminate mishaps and the only conclusion we can draw is that when you try to make something idiot proof the universe just designs a better idiot.
 
George Carlin used to have a routine he did about how we are protecting the idiots and allowing them to propagate when it is clear that they should not survive.
 
Sac Arrow said:
For what it's worth, sometimes I find myself reaching for the gear lever on a 172, just like I find myself stomping in the clutch when driving an automatic.
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I use to reach over with my left hand for the tiller when exiting the runway in a small airplane. :rolleyes:
 
Threefingeredjack said:
The only sure way to prevent a gear up landing is exactly the same method I use to keep from flying into mountains.......I pay attention to what phase of flight I am in and what I need to do next. Practice standardized procedures and have the self discipline to do it every single time. The only times I have landed with my gear up in 30+ years of flying many different types is when it was supposed to be up, per the checklist. Pay attention.
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This. The only way to never forget the gear is to never forget the gear. When on approach, always be aware that the gear need lowering until they're down. Keep the gear in mind until they're confirmed down and locked. Even then, do the GUMPS check once, twice, however many times it takes to be comfortable.

I will say, though, that having a throttle gear horn adjustment up in the 18-20" range actually helps IME, since I basically always hear it when throttling back to get slow enough to lower the gear, and I'm conditioned by experience to associate it with knowing that the gear still needs lowering. (I know that's not where it's supposed to come on, and my mechanic has actually tried to adjust it, but the effect is temporary and it always returns to where it was, sounding at anywhere from 20" all the way down to 16", depending on altitude.)
 
Silvaire said:
Take a look at the panel of a first generation Bonanza. The flap switch and the gear selector switch look and feel identical. In fact every switch looks exactly the same as does the ashtray.
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Except that the gear “switch” that looks like the rest of the piano keys Has a little plastic “tab” on the top of the switch and a little spring-loaded pin that you have to push out of the way before you can push the switch down, or retract it.

The flap switch wasn't that way.

This is a picture from the underside…

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A lot of fuss was made about the switches being reversed from every other airplane, but I didn't think it was that big of a deal… unless you were not paying attention.

Beechcraft succumbed to pressure in 1984 I believe and conformed to everyone else.

In addition to the GUMPS checks on downwind and final, I added another “safety” by never pulling the manifold pressure back below 15 inches until short final, and used the gear and flaps to control the speed and descent rate.

The older bonanzas could fly clean at that power setting with no problem, until you've dirtied them up
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Just another thought…
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JimG. said:
A lot of fuss was made about the switches being reversed from every other airplane, but I didn't think it was that big of a deal… unless you were not paying attention....
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Yea, I wasn't trying to imply that it was a bad design, just that it was used as an excuse as to why a mistake might have been made and that leads to an endless chain of modifications in a vain attempt to make it impossible for even the most advanced idiot to screw up.
 
Silvaire said:
Yea, I wasn't trying to imply that it was a bad design, just that it was used as an excuse as to why a mistake might have been made and that leads to an endless chain of modifications in a vain attempt to make it impossible for even the most advanced idiot to screw up.
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No worries… I was just adding on to what you wrote

I agree with you as well about advanced idiots…
 
I have a couple tricks I use to keep me from becoming "one of the ones that have". When I touch the gear switch I announce aloud gear coming up, then announce gear up when the up light illuminates and vice versa upon gear deployment. I also deploy the gear before I am in the traffic pattern. I'm not waiting for a particular point on downwind, only to forget the gear during an abnormal approach ie, straight in etc. Also when I'm centerline for the runway I'll verify gear down, green light as well as gump checks during the approach.
 
Dead Stick said:
That's what I do. When flying the company's jets our SOP also requires us to do the same, additionally the PF also points at the gear handle in confirmation after the PNF has made the "Gear - DOWN, 3 GREEN, NO RED" call.
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I use 3 green, no red as well. Actually, I say 3 green, no red, got brakes. I haven't forgotten the gear yet, but I've had no brakes twice and on one landing I had no gear lights.:mad2:
 
Comanches are tricky because the motor runs, the handle moves and then it all stops, leading the pilot to believe the gear is extended--and it would be, except for the fact that a jepp book or something else wedged under the emer extension handle, causing the gear to stop when only partially down and the circuit breaker to pop from heating. So without checking lights and handle position the pilot can feel extra drag and think he's good to go--until the noise starts.

comanche pilot said:
I have a couple tricks I use to keep me from becoming "one of the ones that have". When I touch the gear switch I announce aloud gear coming up, then announce gear up when the up light illuminates and vice versa upon gear deployment. I also deploy the gear before I am in the traffic pattern. I'm not waiting for a particular point on downwind, only to forget the gear during an abnormal approach ie, straight in etc. Also when I'm centerline for the runway I'll verify gear down, green light as well as gump checks during the approach.
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only extreme paranoia will save you from a gear up.
just be aware, they really are out to get you.
 
Just cause you're not paranoid doesn't mean the gear isn't out trying to get you.
 
in a discussion on the Red Board someone said that he wouldn't fly if he wasn't confident that he could get the gear down. For him those pilots who were afraid of the retractable gear and only flew fixed shouldn't be flying period.

I on the other hand am comfortable with the fixed gear airplanes and have a phobia of either landing with the gear up in a land plane or landing with the gear down during a water landing in a seaplane, which can kill you. So I avoid those retractables.
 
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wabower said:
Comanches are tricky because the motor runs, the handle moves and then it all stops, leading the pilot to believe the gear is extended--and it would be, except for the fact that a jepp book or something else wedged under the emer extension handle, causing the gear to stop when only partially down and the circuit breaker to pop from heating. So without checking lights and handle position the pilot can feel extra drag and think he's good to go--until the noise starts.
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My Comanche killed a nice portable intercom due to the emergency extension lever going towards the floor upon selecting gear up. This was the previous owner's mistake. The intercom hangs on the wall in my hangar as a reminder. DON'T DO THIS!
I also did away with the automatic dimming feature of the gear lamps when the nav lights are switched on.
 
comanche pilot said:
My Comanche killed a nice portable intercom due to the emergency extension lever going towards the floor upon selecting gear up. This was the previous owner's mistake. The intercom hangs on the wall in my hangar as a reminder. DON'T DO THIS!
I also did away with the automatic dimming feature of the gear lamps when the nav lights are switched on.
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Sounds a lot like the F33 (and maybe other variant) Bonanzas. I will make it a point to assure all foreign objects are clear of the handle before flight. The Bo I fly doesn't have a cover on the extension handle.
 
comanche pilot said:
I also did away with the automatic dimming feature of the gear lamps when the nav lights are switched on.
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And whoever wired the gear lights to be dimmed with the usage of nav lights should be shot! How on earth do bright gear lights at night impact your night-vision? Especially where they're located in the F33 Bonanza! If the Bo I rent was mine, I would also make the wiring change.
 
We're they just trying to lower the total amps drawn on the whole electrical system when they did that?
 
Z06_Mir said:
We all fly differently, and that's OK. IMO both my method and yours are safe and are taught. I fly the way I was taught and it works for me. You fly the way you were taught and it works for you. I incorporate full flap landings for refresher purposes or when necessary, but it isn't standard. We all fly differently, and I think that's good. :yes:
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When I was training truck drivers, I always taught my trainees that they needed to know not only what I was teaching them, but WHY I was teaching them a particular method for doing something, and if they didn't understand my explanation of why that they needed to tell me. That way, when they encountered someone at a truck stop somewhere who told them to do something differently they could ask that guy "why" and judge for themselves whether that person really had a better technique, thus being able to find the best method.

So, it seems to me that, regardless of all of the other arguments for full vs. partial flaps, if partial flaps keeps your gear warning from going off, it's a terrible idea! Never fly in such a fashion as to intentionally disable a safety warning system.

Your turn - What reason in favor of using partial flaps is important enough to warrant disabling your gear warning system?

(Note, I'm not trying to attack you - I think these conversations are important so that we can all fly better! And I might have a 182RG to fly in a couple of months...)
 
EdFred said:
It was just lazy wiring. Everything on a single potentiometer.
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Something I have never understood about the Arrow is that there are two potentiometers with one on each end of the row of switches.

The one on the right turns on the instrument panel lighting and acts as a rheostat. The one on the left turns on the nav lights and acts as only a switch. It rolls like a dimmer but only turns on the nav lights.
 
denverpilot said:
We're they just trying to lower the total amps drawn on the whole electrical system when they did that?
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Often they are dimmed by throwing a resistor into the mix when the nav lights are turned on, so the load remains constant
 
tmyers said:
Something I have never understood about the Arrow is that there are two potentiometers with one on each end of the row of switches.

The one on the right turns on the instrument panel lighting and acts as a rheostat. The one on the left turns on the nav lights and acts as only a switch. It rolls like a dimmer but only turns on the nav lights.
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IIRC our arrow that knob also works the overhead light or some such.
 
tmyers said:
Something I have never understood about the Arrow is that there are two potentiometers with one on each end of the row of switches.

The one on the right turns on the instrument panel lighting and acts as a rheostat. The one on the left turns on the nav lights and acts as only a switch. It rolls like a dimmer but only turns on the nav lights.
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Hmmm... It might not be working. In the PA28's I've flown, one of them controls the light levels on the six-pack, while the other one controls the light levels on the radio stack and the navs.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hmmm... It might not be working. In the PA28's I've flown, one of them controls the light levels on the six-pack, while the other one controls the light levels on the radio stack and the navs.
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No, the Archer and Warriors I fly on occasion also have the nav light switch like that. It does seem a bit odd.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hmmm... It might not be working. In the PA28's I've flown, one of them controls the light levels on the six-pack, while the other one controls the light levels on the radio stack and the navs.
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Mine wasn't like that. Neither is my dad's, nor the Arrows I flew. My Comanche is a single knob as well.
 
EdFred said:
It was just lazy wiring. Everything on a single potentiometer.
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It was an attempt to simplify things for the pilot. And if you only use the nav lights after sunset it works pretty well. Putting the gear indicator lights on the same dimmer as the panel, instrument, and radio illumination could mean they'd stay dark if you turned the rheostat down when flying last night leaving you wondering why the gear didn't go down on your next flight in the daytime.
 
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