Pressure on both rudders at same time

TMetzinger said:
It's a good technique if you're in bumps that are causing some yaw you don't like, but can tire you out if you do it all the time. Normally just the resting pressure of your feet is enough in smooth or mildly turbulent air to keep the plane from wagging.

Of course, it depends on the relative size of the vertical stabilizer to the rudder surface. Some airplanes have more of a tendency to wiggle than others.
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I was in a good ol' 172, but it was jumping all over, so maybe it's a wiggly plane? Or maybe just wiggly turbulence!
 
I guess I've missed something along the way in my training. From the get go I always put light pressure on both pedals. I manipulate the pedals by having less pressure on one and a little more on the other, but I NEVER have no pressure on both or one pedal.
 
It real just depends on the type. This buys you nothing in many aircraft but is useful in Bonanzas.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Have you done your tailwheel training yet?

Maintaining pressure on both rudders will help you in the taildragger.
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Assuming that's light pressure I agree but a common problem is tensing up the legs to the point where you can't "feel" what you're doing with the rudders.

As to the original query about applying pressure to both pedals, IME the effects and necessity of this vary considerably from one type of airplane to another. In a Bonanza and to a lesser extent a Mooney, simply blocking rudder movement reduces the tail wagging enough to make the difference between someone in the back throwing up or having a pleasant ride. In most high wing Cessnas a rider in the back seat can hardly tell the difference between a pilot riding the rudders and one with feet on the floor in almost any tolerable level of turbulence.

And just to be clear, it's not the pressure on the pedals per se that helps in turbulence, all that's necessary is to prevent aerodynamic forces from moving the rudder. Depending on the "stiffness" of the linkage between the pedals and rudder the necessary pressure could be anywhere from almost none to a few pounds force.
 
I never thought the 172 was wiggly but the 150 is. You must have had a bumpy day for the 172 to be so wiggly.... or maybe you're not used to turbulence so every bumpy day seems bad?
 
My big feet just sitting on the rudder pedals is plenty to keep the 182 rudder from waggling. No pressure needed. It's type-specific and rudder-system specific. ;)
 
Yes, when I say always light pressure I mean the weight of my feet. I can feel the rudder under certain conditions this way.

I started in a taildragger which might have something to do with this being part of my habits.
 
Tracey, Where are you flying out of this week? I have to pick up some stuff at the Warhawk Museum in Nampa today. Don
 
The Cessna single trikes have the nosewheel as the datum for rudder rigging. When the airplane is off the ground, a cam on the nosewheel strut centers the rudder, and spring steering bungees allow the pilot to move the rudder but will also center it if the pilot's feet are off the pedals or not exerting any force.

So minimal tail-wag should be noted in those airplanes if the thing is rigged right and if the cam and its mating flat or the bungees aren't worn out.

Too much pressure on the rudder pedals just wear things out faster. In many light airplanes the system is really simple and when you push on both pedals at the same time, it pulls on the rudder's bellcrank and starts wear happening at the cable attach hardware and at the lower rudder hinges. If a taildragger pilot is in the habit of waggling the rudder constantly in takeoff or landing, those bits will wear much faster. None of that stuff is sealed against dust or dirt and water and it won't hold lubrication for long at all.

Dan
 
david.h said:
I agree about putting pressure on both in choppy air, it keeps the rudder from just trailing along with the yawing caused by the disturbance. By keeping the rudder portion stiff, it will act more like the vertical stabilizer (unmovable) portion of the assembly and will dampen out the induced yawing motion a bit better than just letting it trail along in the slipstream. In addition, you will be able to put quick slight pressure to make corrections, even to the point that you don't realize you are doing it. More like tensioning one side more than the other when the chop is trying to yaw you away from straight coordinated flight, thus providing the stabilizer portion effect as stated above.

But what do I know, I only have a bit over 100 hrs. logged.
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This is even more apparent in a plane that has a "all flying rudder" like my 801 has.... Just don't get forgetful and have the brakes applied on landing... Keeping some foot pressure will lull you into that scenerio. IMHO.

Ps.... Tracey... you could have picked some better weather to be flying in the mountians this week... How bumpy is it over there ? :dunno::dunno:

Ben.
 
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Dan Thomas said:
The Cessna single trikes have the nosewheel as the datum for rudder rigging. When the airplane is off the ground, a cam on the nosewheel strut centers the rudder, and spring steering bungees allow the pilot to move the rudder but will also center it if the pilot's feet are off the pedals or not exerting any force.

So minimal tail-wag should be noted in those airplanes if the thing is rigged right and if the cam and its mating flat or the bungees aren't worn out.

Too much pressure on the rudder pedals just wear things out faster. In many light airplanes the system is really simple and when you push on both pedals at the same time, it pulls on the rudder's bellcrank and starts wear happening at the cable attach hardware and at the lower rudder hinges. If a taildragger pilot is in the habit of waggling the rudder constantly in takeoff or landing, those bits will wear much faster. None of that stuff is sealed against dust or dirt and water and it won't hold lubrication for long at all.

Dan
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Thanks for the explanation Dan. I guess this is more reason that I just need to stay in a taildragger.:D
 
yakdriver said:
Tracey, Where are you flying out of this week? I have to pick up some stuff at the Warhawk Museum in Nampa today. Don
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Don, I would have loved to have seen you-- I'm back in New England today. I didn't know that we had a POA-er in Twin! Do you get up to KSUN much?!
 
N801BH said:
Ps.... Tracey... you could have picked some better weather to be flying in the mountians this week... How bumpy is it over there ? :dunno::dunno:

Ben.
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I went on a night flight Thursday night... it was marginal. We were going to go to TWF (Hi Don!), but got IFR-d out. So we chose BOI and everything was fine. Except for the bumps. Most bumps I've ever felt (although I'm sure it'd be called 'moderate chop' by all you pros!).
 
Its been unsettled all week. You should have come over a couple weeks ago. If you get back out here let me know. Best time is Late July until end of October for the backcountry. Don
 
murphey said:
Speedbrakes are rarely installed on little airplances like 172s and similar.
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Murph. You didn't get it. (the joke)

That poster flies a canard. Two independent rudders. You step on the left pedal the left rudder deflects. You step on the right pedal the right rudder deflects. You step on both and they both deploy.


Deploying both simultaneously is functionally a drag device. I.e. speed brake.

And most of the canards DO have a ventral speed/drag brake too.
 
Tracey said:
I went on a night flight Thursday night... it was marginal. We were going to go to TWF (Hi Don!), but got IFR-d out. So we chose BOI and everything was fine. Except for the bumps. Most bumps I've ever felt (although I'm sure it'd be called 'moderate chop' by all you pros!).
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Wait you flew in marginal, at night, with turbulence, and some airports were IFR? I would have been scared. My CFI waited for a really nice clear calm night for my night flying, especially since we only did it ONCE so it was special. The rest of the night stuff, if I remember correctly, was simply done at the home airport.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Wait you flew in marginal, at night, with turbulence, and some airports were IFR? I would have been scared. My CFI waited for a really nice clear calm night for my night flying, especially since we only did it ONCE so it was special. The rest of the night stuff, if I remember correctly, was simply done at the home airport.
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Yes-- the CFI that I went with is an amazingly competent pilot (he's rated to fly jets as well, I forgot the technical name for his particular rating) and he teaches people how to fly in the backcountry too. I knew I would be very safe with him and that it'd be an excellent learning experience.

Hopefully I will never be in turbulence that bad by myself, but if I am, I can remember back to my experience with him and remind myself that: it's temporary, I can change altitutudes and see if it gets better, I can lower my airspeed (and not hit the bumps so fast) and I can do the "pressure on both rudders" trick.

I would not have done that flight with a less experienced CFI.

(P.S. This was the last of my night flight requirements-- the other ones I fulfilled on clear and mostly windless nights!).
 
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I usually have my feet on the rudder pedals. If it is gusty, with or without a crab, I keep a little light pressure to keep the plane from moving around. If it is bit turbulent, I back off the power and slow down; don't run at full rental power. This smooths out the ride a bit.
If flying in the mounts of the NE, you can get high enough so the air over the mounts don't have that much affect. They are, after all, more hills than mounts.
 
Tracey said:
I went on a night flight Thursday night... it was marginal. We were going to go to TWF (Hi Don!), but got IFR-d out. So we chose BOI and everything was fine. Except for the bumps. Most bumps I've ever felt (although I'm sure it'd be called 'moderate chop' by all you pros!).
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Anything that doesn't blind you with blurred vision is moderate chop or less.;)
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Also, seing "haze" and "tulle fog" and "8 miles viz" and some various cloud conditions, all perfectly legal, makes me realize I'm not gonna see Mt. Shasta (200 miles away) every freaking day, and that's OKAY.
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Ha. I can see it now: soon enough, you'll be a regular user of SVFR too.

:D
 
onwards said:
Ha. I can see it now: soon enough, you'll be a regular user of SVFR too.

:D
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Onwards, are you really the "Proud owner of the "trolliest or dumbest post ever on this board"? What in the heck did you post? Inquiring minds, you know...
 
You wear 14's too?

denverpilot said:
My big feet just sitting on the rudder pedals is plenty to keep the 182 rudder from waggling. No pressure needed. It's type-specific and rudder-system specific. ;)
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Tracey said:
Onwards, are you really the "Proud owner of the "trolliest or dumbest post ever on this board"? What in the heck did you post? Inquiring minds, you know...
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Tracey, easy enough to find: look for all my posts and seek the two from 12/18. Or clicky.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I guess I've missed something along the way in my training. From the get go I always put light pressure on both pedals. I manipulate the pedals by having less pressure on one and a little more on the other, but I NEVER have no pressure on both or one pedal.
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+1

But then I fly a Luscombe ;-).

Deb


1948 Luscombe 8E
"Lester"
 
wabower said:
You wear 14's too?
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10.5-11 in U.S. sizes, but they're wide. :)

Zappos.com and ordering wide sizes instead of cramming them into regular width shoes and eventually bulging out the outsides... Like I'd done all my life... is a wonderful side benefit of the Internet Age.

The funny thing is, it took me a while to get used to wide sizes because they felt like my feet had too much room. ;)
 
I didn't even know it was a movie reference. I'm slipping. :)

Signed,
Official old-fart with wide feet.
 
denverpilot said:
I didn't even know it was a movie reference. I'm slipping. :)

Signed,
Official old-fart with wide feet.
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It's from Monty Python & for all I know Kim wasn't even quoting it (were you Kim?), but whenever I hear "run away" that's what I think of. :dunno: Makes me laugh. :lol:
 
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